Headwaters Resort & Casino (Proposed)

[lammius]

"casino type" people

 

[varider]

https://www.virginiabusiness.com/article/pamunkey-tribe-names-w-m-jordan-suffolk-as-norfolk-casino-builders/
 

“The 300-room hotel, casino and entertainment venue is expected to produce at least 2,000 construction jobs. Groundbreaking is set for later this year or early 2022, the tribe has said, with the casino opening scheduled in 2023”

[mintscraft56]

People must see that Norfolk/Portsmouth  is and should be the primary cities in the area! The casino(s) is going to definitely boost economy and travel. It will also be a attention grabber to bigger corporations. Though we all hoped for a tower its fine how it is...as long as we get a casino. Though I want to know how Portsmouth is head of Norfolk right now.....  Though to everyone reading this I please ask you to not give all your hopes into this yet because we all know how some times super exiting projects end up in Norfolk...Cough Cough ( Tide light rail expansion to OF, Granby  Tower, Gateway tower, Norfolk Plaza, and what I see as worst and best at the same time is Mc Arthur Center because it was good for 15-19 years but now is failing and is wasting 4 blocks of space although it was built to say the least.)

[mintscraft56]

1 hour ago, Asdfjkl; said:

I feel like 2023 is a pretty optimistic timeline for opening. 

Yea it may be but at least its something to look forward to. I mean like you dont go walking in the dark without knowing where your going. Gotta have an idea of whats

ahead, right?

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

Portsmouth and Rivers wanted to have the state's 1st casino. It wouldn't surprise me if the Norfolk casino is way late to be built. Supposedly Waterside developers had rights to build a casino 1st in Norfolk. I don't think that issue is resolved yet. 

Rivers and Portsmouth believe the state should have the leg work done by October. Rivers is set to go vertical come October, the groundwork and concrete base are being laid now. 

The difference is Norfolk doesn't have a national brand building, it a tribe casino. I would expect things to be quite slow for that reason alone. 

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

7 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

People must see that Norfolk/Portsmouth  is and should be the primary cities in the area! The casino(s) is going to definitely boost economy and travel. It will also be a attention grabber to bigger corporations. Though we all hoped for a tower its fine how it is...as long as we get a casino. Though I want to know how Portsmouth is head of Norfolk right now.....  Though to everyone reading this I please ask you to not give all your hopes into this yet because we all know how some times super exiting projects end up in Norfolk...Cough Cough ( Tide light rail expansion to OF, Granby  Tower, Gateway tower, Norfolk Plaza, and what I see as worst and best at the same time is Mc Arthur Center because it was good for 15-19 years but now is failing and is wasting 4 blocks of space although it was built to say the least.)

It has alot to do with new tax production, the cities that were chosen are all small independent cities, with a history of money issues. If I'm not mistaken Norfolk Indian Casino wasn't initially a site chosen by the State, that same tribe tried to build in New Kent and Richmond, before choosing Norfolk. I'm almost sure Norfolk wanted a casino, to up-one on Portsmouth which is a huge issue regionally, and may not work to Norfolk's benefit like initially thought. 

I for one think if Norfolk actually put in real work they could have redevelop Harbor Park area 10 yrs ago. The area literally has a light rail stop, baseball stadium and a train station and the city has done nothing to capitalize. Why the city sells the land, for a Indian casino was weird, instead of mixed development. Portsmouth on the other hand has a state senator that has been pushing for a casino in Portsmouth for like 25 yrs, done the leg work and is ultimately the catalyst for casinos in VA. Portsmouth also didn't make deals with Cordish that is also holding Norfolk up. 

I wasn't a fan of Portsmouth casino location initially and thought 1 casino should have been built between DT Norfolk and DT Portsmouth. I also felt like the casino should have been based in Portsmouth given Louise Lucas push. Now that things are underway I'm glad Portsmouth didn't choose that location on Crawford Pkwy. It's a tiny space and I'm sure building the casino there would have slowed the process WAY down. Leaving the area without a casino for 2 more years, but it's looking like Portsmouth casino maybe up within a year, and that exciting for the area. 

I'm not too sure how I feel about Norfolk's casino it maybe MUCH different especially with all the in-between time. It never crossed my mind but MacArthur would of been a perfect location for a Norfolk casino, hell the mall could of been sold to the Tribe, and renovated into a casino. It's close to everything the Cruise port, Waterside, The Main,Sheldon Arcade, Granby, and sits between 2 light rail stops. Hindsight is always 20/20

[varider]

I really lament the fact that light rail failed in VB and the most we can hope for in NFK is a 2 mile extension to Military Cir. 

Even if we could have gotten the rail to Town Center, I believe we would have seen much, much more TOD, especially around the Harbor Park, Military Hwy, and EVMS/FT Norfolk stations (vast undeveloped surface lots) and I think it would have facilitated and accelerated development in Town Center. 

I used to dream of this area developing somewhat of a transit culture where people wanted to live near the light rail and business activity started to consolidate along the rail lines and envisioned at least a few 5-15 floor mixed use apartments directly adjacent to those stations. I was so excited for our future after seeing how rail transformed the fabric of cities like Charlotte. 

A decade later, here we are. 

If we want projects like the Casino to succeed, it will require a regional effort. As it is now, the area is so disjointed and fragmented that large-scale projects have little chance of success because the area doesn’t function as a true MSA. Tourists on the strip rarely, if ever venture out to Town Center or elsewhere in VB, much less make the trip into Norfolk, and vice versa. An event in VB has an entirely different vibe than an event in NFK. For the type of development patterns and improvements that we want around this area, we need a shared identity and have to normalize regionalism. Until that happens, we can only expect more of what we already have, which is small suburban town centers popping up all over that masquerade as a mini urban experience while our true urban centers are stagnant and avoided like the plague.
 

..and don’t even get me started on the Peninsula. It is culturally and socially and geographically on its own, and people make an effort not to cross the tunnels. Hopefully the HRBT and other infrastructure improvements will limit the barriers and make the area feel more cohesive. But for now, it feels like several smaller metro areas that share borders and that’s it. I watched the announcement of expansion of aerospace company in Newport News and the entire time the business leaders and politicians spoke, all I heard was talk of “The Virginia Peninsula” or “Newport News and Hampton” and not a single mention of “Hampton Roads” or “757” or “Coastal Virginia”. It’s like the area is broken into tribes (Hampton+Newport News, Virginia Beach on its own, Norfolk + Portsmouth, Chesapeake + Suffolk)

Edited September 15, 2021 by varider

[vdogg]

15 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

People must see that Norfolk/Portsmouth  is and should be the primary cities in the area! The casino(s) is going to definitely boost economy and travel. It will also be a attention grabber to bigger corporations. Though we all hoped for a tower its fine how it is...as long as we get a casino. Though I want to know how Portsmouth is head of Norfolk right now.....  Though to everyone reading this I please ask you to not give all your hopes into this yet because we all know how some times super exiting projects end up in Norfolk...Cough Cough ( Tide light rail expansion to OF, Granby  Tower, Gateway tower, Norfolk Plaza, and what I see as worst and best at the same time is Mc Arthur Center because it was good for 15-19 years but now is failing and is wasting 4 blocks of space although it was built to say the least.)

It was super exciting when it was a tower, now it's just kinda meh. I'm not getting my hopes up, as I'm confident that this far more mediocre version will get built. My hopes were up with the tower, never again. The only reason that I'm still for this project now is because of the clear economic benefits in both jobs and prestige.

[vdogg]

5 hours ago, varider said:

I really lament the fact that light rail failed in VB and the most we can hope for in NFK is a 2 mile extension to Military Cir. 

Even if we could have gotten the rail to Town Center, I believe we would have seen much, much more TOD, especially around the Harbor Park, Military Hwy, and EVMS/FT Norfolk stations (vast undeveloped surface lots) and I think it would have facilitated and accelerated development in Town Center. 

I used to dream of this area developing somewhat of a transit culture where people wanted to live near the light rail and business activity started to consolidate along the rail lines and envisioned at least a few 5-15 floor mixed use apartments directly adjacent to those stations. I was so excited for our future after seeing how rail transformed the fabric of cities like Charlotte. 

A decade later, here we are. 

If we want projects like the Casino to succeed, it will require a regional effort. As it is now, the area is so disjointed and fragmented that large-scale projects have little chance of success because the area doesn’t function as a true MSA. Tourists on the strip rarely, if ever venture out to Town Center or elsewhere in VB, much less make the trip into Norfolk, and vice versa. An event in VB has an entirely different vibe than an event in NFK. For the type of development patterns and improvements that we want around this area, we need a shared identity and have to normalize regionalism. Until that happens, we can only expect more of what we already have, which is small suburban town centers popping up all over that masquerade as a mini urban experience while our true urban centers are stagnant and avoided like the plague.
 

..and don’t even get me started on the Peninsula. It is culturally and socially and geographically on its own, and people make an effort not to cross the tunnels. Hopefully the HRBT and other infrastructure improvements will limit the barriers and make the area feel more cohesive. But for now, it feels like several smaller metro areas that share borders and that’s it. I watched the announcement of expansion of aerospace company in Newport News and the entire time the business leaders and politicians spoke, all I heard was talk of “The Virginia Peninsula” or “Newport News and Hampton” and not a single mention of “Hampton Roads” or “757” or “Coastal Virginia”. It’s like the area is broken into tribes (Hampton+Newport News, Virginia Beach on its own, Norfolk + Portsmouth, Chesapeake + Suffolk)

That tunnel might as well be a moat with a drawbridge and a dragon on standby if you should attempt to swim across. The traffic issues at that choke point have balkanized the region, but the expansion should go a long way towards fixing that. I usually only go to the peninsula to be on the peninsula a couple of times a year. Other than that, it's simply an area that I have to pass through to get to D.C.

[mintscraft56]

Remember when it used to be this? I miss it.

 

[mintscraft56]

Everyone New Announcement not sure if you know or not but the Tribe has found a Company with casino building experience to help build. This company is known for their work quality and employs alot of people at casinos across the states. this is a good move by the tribe.

[mintscraft56]

I got a signature now lol. ................Also I just had a crazy fever dream and I mentioned it in a diffrent chat.

 All we need is the casino and I believe that will attract hopefully at least one fortune 500 company into the area and build a tower Downtown. Once we get that we get a building boom because if its good enough for a fortune 500 company then a bunch of other companies jump in.   EDIT:  This is mostly what I REALLY Hope. For now its nothing but a fever dream.

Lol did you read that? Have you ever had a dream like that where you just day dream of our city growing rapidly after everything goes right?

Edited September 17, 2021 by mintscraft56

[carolinaboy]

11 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

Have you ever had a dream like that where you just day dream of our city growing rapidly after everything goes right?

Yes, that is common for folks who frequent Urban Planet and other urban development-centric web resources.

[mintscraft56]

On 9/17/2021 at 8:00 AM, carolinaboy said:

Yes, that is common for folks who frequent Urban Planet and other urban development-centric web resources.

Lol thats true. Seeing all these other cities like Charlotte and Richmond in a Building Boom and we are between them makes me sad to see us have little progress. Virginia Beach is kinda stealing our spotlight.  

[urbanlife]

On 9/19/2021 at 5:14 PM, mintscraft56 said:

Lol thats true. Seeing all these other cities like Charlotte and Richmond in a Building Boom and we are between them makes me sad to see us have little progress. Virginia Beach is kinda stealing our spotlight.  

With the building booms so many cities saw during the 2000s before the recession and then this recent building boom before the pandemic, it is really sad to see a city like Norfolk not benefit from either of this. You would have thought the whole Fort Norfolk, the Neon District,  and St Paul areas would be in full force urban redevelopment. 

[vdogg]

If we truly want to operate as a "region" we need to be happy when development is occurring in any of our cities, and not view it as one city stealing the spotlight from another. 

[mintscraft56]

On 10/1/2021 at 7:14 AM, vdogg said:

If we truly want to operate as a "region" we need to be happy when development is occurring in any of our cities, and not view it as one city stealing the spotlight from another. 

Thats true....Im just not as happy to see our city declining even with the potential we have. Plus I wish the cities governments  would see it like that too. The cities seem to disagree so much its like bickering with siblings.

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

On 10/1/2021 at 7:14 AM, vdogg said:

If we truly want to operate as a "region" we need to be happy when development is occurring in any of our cities, and not view it as one city stealing the spotlight from another. 

That's kind of what it is though, not stealing the spotlight but not sharing it either. Every city builds with the hope of moving THEIR city along and no city helps the other. So it's hard to be excited about development with no regional benefits in mind. That's how we're here now, every city for itself, with a ton of redundant development.

Back on topic, was it ever mentioned the tax revenue the casino would generate for Norfolk? Supposedly the tribe still owns land in Richmond and could build a casino in Richmond. The problem there is the casino would be able to evade alot of taxes. Is the same true in Norfolk? While Richmond Urban One Casino would actually provide taxes to Richmond. 

Did Norfolk really sign on just to get a casino? That only promised jobs and development? If so that's the kind of shortsighted competition that hurts the region.

Portsmouth Casino is expected to generate 7mil for the city, 1500 jobs, as well as opportunity for local and minority business owners to participate. Also looking to partner with TCC to start a hospitality department.  

 

[BeagleAccountant]

13 minutes ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

That's kind of what it is though, not stealing the spotlight but not sharing it either. Every city builds with the hope of moving THEIR city along and no city helps the other. So it's hard to be excited about development with no regional benefits in mind. That's how we're here now, every city for itself, with a ton of redundant development.

Back on topic, was it ever mentioned the tax revenue the casino would generate for Norfolk? Supposedly the tribe still owns land in Richmond and could build a casino in Richmond. The problem there is the casino would be able to evade alot of taxes. Is the same true in Norfolk? While Richmond Urban One Casino would actually provide taxes to Richmond. 

Did Norfolk really sign on just to get a casino? That only promised jobs and development? If so that's the kind of shortsighted competition that hurts the region.

Portsmouth Casino is expected to generate 7mil for the city, 1500 jobs, as well as opportunity for local and minority business owners to participate. Also looking to partner with TCC to start a hospitality department.  

 

No. Where did you get that idea? They are not going through the tribal casino process, meaning the land will not become sovereign land. So while the Pamunkey Tribe will be the operators of the casino, they will still owe all the associated taxes of operating a casino; hotel occupancy tax, food/alcohol tax, property tax, gaming taxes etc.

[Kevin Cheph Randall]

26 minutes ago, BeagleAccountant said:

No. Where did you get that idea? They are not going through the tribal casino process, meaning the land will not become sovereign land. So while the Pamunkey Tribe will be the operators of the casino, they will still owe all the associated taxes of operating a casino; hotel occupancy tax, food/alcohol tax, property tax, gaming taxes etc.

Ok I see I thought the tribe would own the land. 

So initially Norfolk was going to allow it though? I read  the deal with Pamunkey last year was redone. 

The idea about Pamunkey still building in Richmond came across of Richmond Casino thread. 

Could Pamunkey be holding out for a better situation in which the can operate a true Tribal Casino? just playing devil's advocate 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Kevin Cheph Randall

[vdogg]

1 hour ago, Kevin Cheph Randall said:

Ok I see I thought the tribe would own the land. 

So initially Norfolk was going to allow it though? I read  the deal with Pamunkey last year was redone. 

The idea about Pamunkey still building in Richmond came across of Richmond Casino thread. 

Could Pamunkey be holding out for a better situation in which the can operate a true Tribal Casino? just playing devil's advocate 

No. Pamunkey Casino in Richmond was DOA. They offered a level of investment that was half that of all the other proposals. They were barely even in the running.

[zeppelin14]

So this just adds to my frustration about the Norfolk casino. The Norfolk casino plans got scaled way back to basically a glorified Holiday Inn. I just saw plans for the casino breaking ground in Danville. It's a Caesars and looks beautiful. Why does Hampton Roads and Norfolk always do the bare minimum? 

https://wtop.com/business-finance/2021/09/heres-a-look-at-caesars-danville-casino/

[SuffolkWahoo]

No offense, but I think Headwaters, which sits above Harborpark with the infinity pool, looks far better than that Caesars (which to me looks much more like a Holiday Inn than the all glass Norfolk casino).

[BFG]

I agree. I’m not a huge fan of the current Headwaters design, but the Caesar’s looks more like something I’d see in Greenbrier. 

[vdogg]

While not necessarily better in design, it's definitely better in scope, by a long shot. 500 hotel rooms in Danville? And you're saying we can't support that in Norfolk? It's ridiculous that Danville gets a project of this scale while we get paired back....

"The project, called Caesars Virginia, will include 500 hotel rooms, casino floor, Caesars Sportsbook, restaurants, live entertainment theater and a World Series of Poker Room. It will also include 40,000 square feet of meeting and convention space.

 

The current plans for Caesars Virginia include 200 more hotel rooms than originally planned and $100 million more investment than the initial development agreement.

 

Caesars Entertainment estimates the project will create 900 construction jobs and 1,300 permanent jobs when the resort opens. It is expected to open in late 2023."