Headwaters Resort & Casino (Proposed)

[vdogg]

55 minutes ago, HRVA said:

Update from the lottery board on Jan 23 - page 14: https://www.valottery.com/-/media/val/images/promos/casinos-sports-betting/board-meetings/01252023-gaming-compliance-slides.ashx?la=en

I’ll summarize: 

•Meetings are held to discuss overall progress.
• Anticipates opening a temporary casino.

Actually that’s verbatim. That’s the same exact thing they said last time. Three months and no real progress. 

I'm calling BS. That temporary casino was proposed in April of 2021. It's now 2023. If they were serious, the PERMANENT casino could've been damn near complete by now. Abandon the half step, and just build the casino... There's something else going on here.

[baobabs727]

On 12/27/2022 at 8:21 PM, BeagleAccountant said:

In the Tides lease renewal are new allowances for the Casino and the seawall project. So the city is fulfilling its’ side of the equation. 
 

https://www.dailypress.com/government/local/vp-nw-tides-lease-renewal-20221227-ne7xt56uj5hgpnuxeivmid52uu-story.html?fbclid=IwAR3k0bTVljOMhJkutp6IF-t4A7ISYQXS8zlDjspumZ61B44uv2WKzVL4QYI

At least in that particular regard, yes. But they did not do as well with Cordish. 

[baobabs727]

56 minutes ago, vdogg said:

I'm calling BS. That temporary casino was proposed in April of 2021. It's now 2023. If they were serious, the PERMANENT casino could've been damn near complete by now. Abandon the half step, and just build the casino... There's something else going on here.

Yes, but what exactly??

[Urbanlooker]

I have heard that the city, or at least planning, is basically telling Pamunkey the samething that we're saying here. Skip the temporary and just build the Casino mostly because the plans they've received for the "temporary" building do not seem temporary. The city is not wanting or allowing that because they do not want anything less than what was promised. Another reason for the hold up is the Pamunkey want to build additional parking in the wetlands near the site and the city will not allow that. Instead the City has offered the land on the other side of the rail tracks with a proposed pedestrian bridge connecting directly into the casino.

 

 

[vdogg]

6 hours ago, Urbanlooker said:

I have heard that the city, or at least planning, is basically telling Pamunkey the samething that we're saying here. Skip the temporary and just build the Casino mostly because the plans they've received for the "temporary" building do not seem temporary. The city is not wanting or allowing that because they do not want anything less than what was promised. Another reason for the hold up is the Pamunkey want to build additional parking in the wetlands near the site and the city will not allow that. Instead the City has offered the land on the other side of the rail tracks with a proposed pedestrian bridge connecting directly into the casino.

 

 

This sounds worse by the minute. I'm happy to hear the city is holding their feet to the fire, but disheartened by what can only be described as the "antics" of the Pamunkey. Only an idiot would've thought that building a parking deck IN WETLANDS was going to fly in this city. We have a severe flooding problem, and we're actually trying to restore the wetlands because of it, not take more wetlands away. Do they have any professional engineers working for them, or are they just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks? The permatemp casino plans pretty much confirm my worst fears. They never intended to build a permanent casino of the quality they sold the city on, it was just a bunch of razzle dazzle to get their foot in the door. Their "temporary" casino plans are probably a clone of what's been built in Portsmouth, and I'm glad the city isn't letting them get away with it. I don't know what we can do about this situation. I'm so so tired of developers coming to Norfolk, selling us a bill of goods, and then turning around and building crap on increasingly dwindling and valuable land...

[carolinaboy]

I just don't think the area can support two casinos. I think Headwaters just got beat out of the market by the one in Portsmouth and they can no longer build anything other than the "temporary" one, if even that. 

You guys can stick a fork in this project. It's done.

Congratulations to Portsmouth I guess.

 

[varider]

40 minutes ago, carolinaboy said:

I just don't think the area can support two casinos. I think Headwaters just got beat out of the market by the one in Portsmouth and they can no longer build anything other than the "temporary" one, if even that. 

You guys can stick a fork in this project. It's done.

Congratulations to Portsmouth I guess.

 

I don’t have a good feeling about Headwaters either at this point, but I don’t think the area can only support one casino.  Rivers Portsmouth is doing very well, and I can only imagine that summer will bring even more people to the casinos, and I think a casino in Norfolk would be supported more by tourists and ppl in VB rather than having to cross the tolls and go into P-town.  I imagined Norfolks casino being more of a destination spot with a hotel and connectivity to the ballpark, whereas Portsmouth could be more for locals and those more towards Suffolk and western parts of our area.

Either way, I don’t think I’m that disappointed that Norfolk might not get a casino,  rather I’m just fed up with projects being announced around here and marketed to us, that either take way too long or end up cancelled/watered down. There’s no way Norfolk can grow and prosper without pulling off some of these major projects. The only places that did attract people to downtown are closing up shop and moving on. Without retailers like urban outfitters or the Apple Store, or restaurants like Texas de Brazil, or businesses like Norfolk Southern, coupled with few nightlife options, who does the city and developers expect to move to Norfolk and be exited. We actually had momentum for a bit, and I was hopeful for some of the other projects we talked about like Gateway Tower, Greyhound station redevelopment, potential new arena downtown or military hwy, and I’m trying not to turn into a pessimist about this area, but I just don’t think I can hold my breath any longer waiting on things to change around here. We take two steps forward and then a few steps back, every single time. Even restaurants like Luce or Union Taco that people used to drive to Norfolk for, have opened up locations in Summit Pointe. Norfolk gets the Patriotic Festival and then VB comes back with an even bigger and better country festival that surely will take detract from Norfolk. I just don’t know what gives, seems like we’re stuck in a loop of mediocre status quo around here where you either suck it up and deal with it or find a way to a more happening and exciting place

Edited February 16, 2023 by varider

[carolinaboy]

17 minutes ago, varider said:

I don’t have a good feeling about Headwaters either at this point, but I don’t think the area can only support one casino.  Rivers Portsmouth is doing very well, and I can only imagine that summer will bring even more people to the casinos, and I think a casino in Norfolk would be supported more by tourists and ppl in VB rather than having to cross the tolls and go into P-town.  I imagined Norfolks casino being more of a destination spot with a hotel and connectivity to the ballpark, whereas Portsmouth could be more for locals and those more towards Suffolk and western parts of our area.

Either way, I don’t think I’m that disappointed that Norfolk might not get a casino,  rather I’m just fed up with projects being announced around here and marketed to us, that either take way too long or end up cancelled/watered down. There’s no way Norfolk can grow and prosper without pulling off some of these major projects. The only places that did attract people to downtown are closing up shop and moving on. Without retailers like urban outfitters or the Apple Store, or restaurants like Texas de Brazil, or businesses like Norfolk Southern, coupled with few nightlife options, who does the city and developers expect to move to Norfolk and be exited. We actually had momentum for a bit, and I was hopeful for some of the other projects we talked about like Gateway Tower, Greyhound station redevelopment, potential new arena downtown or military hwy, and I’m trying not to turn into a pessimist about this area, but I just don’t think I can hold my breath any longer waiting on things to change around here. We take two steps forward and then a few steps back, every single time. Even restaurants like Luce or Union Taco that people used to drive to Norfolk for, have opened up locations in Summit Pointe. Norfolk gets the Patriotic Festival and then VB comes back with an even bigger and better country festival that surely will take detract from Norfolk. I just don’t know what gives, seems like we’re stuck in a loop of mediocre status quo around here where you either suck it up and deal with it or find a way to a more happening and exciting place

I think the new apartments (several that I know of) being constructed or proposed in downtown, the eventual redevelopment of the Saint Pauls area from a pocket of concentrated poverty to a more diverse, walkable neighborhood area and the potential arena all do much more for the future of downtown than a casino. More people living downtown, using light rail, going to retailers, restaurants, etc. can only help keep and lure some more. Norfolk will loose businesses but also gain some back. That's the nature of the market. Places for people to live, place-making, infrastructure improvements is where the city needs to focus/promote. Some things are just out of their control like the whims of a casino developer. Move on to the things that can be done. Fix existing problems before dumping public money into the fortunes of someone else. 

[HRVA]

There is a minimum capital investment of $300 million required by law, so while they could build a temporary casino, it can only operate for up to two years. They won’t be able to get a permanent license without making the investment in a permanent facility. There is also a requirement that a construction schedule is submitted for a permanent facility with the temp license. The temp license is one year with an additional year allowed only if they are complying with the construction schedule. 
 

It’d be great if the city could give an honest update about the status of the project. If this doesn’t end up happening and the city attempts another referendum in the future then the lack of transparency will be used against them. 

[Lluck002]

17 hours ago, varider said:

I don’t have a good feeling about Headwaters either at this point, but I don’t think the area can only support one casino.  Rivers Portsmouth is doing very well, and I can only imagine that summer will bring even more people to the casinos, and I think a casino in Norfolk would be supported more by tourists and ppl in VB rather than having to cross the tolls and go into P-town.  I imagined Norfolks casino being more of a destination spot with a hotel and connectivity to the ballpark, whereas Portsmouth could be more for locals and those more towards Suffolk and western parts of our area.

Either way, I don’t think I’m that disappointed that Norfolk might not get a casino,  rather I’m just fed up with projects being announced around here and marketed to us, that either take way too long or end up cancelled/watered down. There’s no way Norfolk can grow and prosper without pulling off some of these major projects. The only places that did attract people to downtown are closing up shop and moving on. Without retailers like urban outfitters or the Apple Store, or restaurants like Texas de Brazil, or businesses like Norfolk Southern, coupled with few nightlife options, who does the city and developers expect to move to Norfolk and be exited. We actually had momentum for a bit, and I was hopeful for some of the other projects we talked about like Gateway Tower, Greyhound station redevelopment, potential new arena downtown or military hwy, and I’m trying not to turn into a pessimist about this area, but I just don’t think I can hold my breath any longer waiting on things to change around here. We take two steps forward and then a few steps back, every single time. Even restaurants like Luce or Union Taco that people used to drive to Norfolk for, have opened up locations in Summit Pointe. Norfolk gets the Patriotic Festival and then VB comes back with an even bigger and better country festival that surely will take detract from Norfolk. I just don’t know what gives, seems like we’re stuck in a loop of mediocre status quo around here where you either suck it up and deal with it or find a way to a more happening and exciting place

My heart breaks a little more every time another popular business in Downtown Norfolk closes. I first moved to Downtown in 2011 right in the heart of its renaissance. To see it die so quickly since then makes me want to cry

[baobabs727]

18 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

I think the new apartments (several that I know of) being constructed or proposed in downtown, the eventual redevelopment of the Saint Pauls area from a pocket of concentrated poverty to a more diverse, walkable neighborhood area and the potential arena all do much more for the future of downtown than a casino. More people living downtown, using light rail, going to retailers, restaurants, etc. can only help keep and lure some more. Norfolk will loose businesses but also gain some back. That's the nature of the market. Places for people to live, place-making, infrastructure improvements is where the city needs to focus/promote. Some things are just out of their control like the whims of a casino developer. Move on to the things that can be done. Fix existing problems before dumping public money into the fortunes of someone else. 

Doesn't have to be a zero-sum game.   

[brikkman]

On 2/16/2023 at 8:30 AM, vdogg said:

This sounds worse by the minute. I'm happy to hear the city is holding their feet to the fire, but disheartened by what can only be described as the "antics" of the Pamunkey. Only an idiot would've thought that building a parking deck IN WETLANDS was going to fly in this city. We have a severe flooding problem, and we're actually trying to restore the wetlands because of it, not take more wetlands away. Do they have any professional engineers working for them, or are they just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks? The permatemp casino plans pretty much confirm my worst fears. They never intended to build a permanent casino of the quality they sold the city on, it was just a bunch of razzle dazzle to get their foot in the door. Their "temporary" casino plans are probably a clone of what's been built in Portsmouth, and I'm glad the city isn't letting them get away with it. I don't know what we can do about this situation. I'm so so tired of developers coming to Norfolk, selling us a bill of goods, and then turning around and building crap on increasingly dwindling and valuable land...

Cordish!!!!

[BFG]

Would Cordish even be willing to throw its hat into the ring? Didn't that bridge get burned when they filed the lawsuit against the city? If Norfolk wants a casino, I'm sure they could at least extend an olive branch...

This is just a bad situation all around. I hate that Norfolk keeps getting the short end of the stick on major projects, and now I'm wondering will the same thing happen with the new arena?

[vdogg]

22 hours ago, brikkman said:

Cordish!!!!

I’ve mentioned that before, and probably what we should do at this point, but I hate Cordish, lol. Really prefer not to go to them hat in hand. It’s like asking that one high school rival you had on the team, one you could never beat, for help. Would it be best if you just swallowed your pride and asked for help so that you can move forward? Of course. But damn does it suck. 

[Qdeathstar]

On 2/17/2023 at 4:06 PM, BFG said:

Would Cordish even be willing to throw its hat into the ring? Didn't that bridge get burned when they filed the lawsuit against the city? If Norfolk wants a casino, I'm sure they could at least extend an olive branch...

This is just a bad situation all around. I hate that Norfolk keeps getting the short end of the stick on major projects, and now I'm wondering will the same thing happen with the new arena?

Money talks. Cornish will be happy to build a casino…

[BeagleAccountant]

3 hours ago, Qdeathstar said:

Money talks. Cornish will be happy to build a casino…

Have y'all been to Waterside lately? With how poorly it's managed most days, I'm not sure I'd trust them with something so big.

[Si7i]

1 hour ago, BeagleAccountant said:

Have y'all been to Waterside lately? With how poorly it's managed most days, I'm not sure I'd trust them with something so big.

Make no mistake The Cordish Company is excellent at entertainment complexes and casinos. I’ve been to a few of their properties and they have some deep pockets and entertainment knowledge. They participated in watersides redevelopment in the hopes of future development of a hotel or Appartments. All of there other properties either have hotel components, apartment, or casinos. The waterside you see today is just a place holder for that property by the company. Either Cordish is soured by city leadership opposing a tower development there (and the Casino by harbor park), they are waiting for this current casino deal to fall apart, waiting for city leadership to change, or running out their contractual obligation to waterside. But in no way does current waterside set the tone for what they are capable of. Waterside was destined to fail because of city leadership. Cordish was told by city officials that a they would get first pick at a casino, I have no idea why different proposals weren’t vetted and Pamunkey were first picks. I honestly don’t think they have any financing for the full 300million requirement same as the VB arena. Our city leadership went with it because they thought they were legit and now we’re in a place we’re deals shouldn’t be falling apart, especially ones that went through legislation hoops. Norfolks city government has been acting small time since Fraim left and even worse since we lost our city manager to Charlotte.

 

[HRVA]

16 minutes ago, Si7i said:

Make no mistake The Cordish Company is excellent at entertainment complexes and casinos. I’ve been to a few of their properties and they have some deep pockets and entertainment knowledge. They participated in watersides redevelopment in the hopes of future development of a hotel or Appartments. All of there other properties either have hotel components, apartment, or casinos. The waterside you see today is just a place holder for that property by the company. Either Cordish is soured by city leadership opposing a tower development there (and the Casino by harbor park), they are waiting for this current casino deal to fall apart, waiting for city leadership to change, or running out their contractual obligation to waterside. But in no way does current waterside set the tone for what they are capable of. Waterside was destined to fail because of city leadership. Cordish was told by city officials that a they would get first pick at a casino, I have no idea why different proposals weren’t vetted and Pamunkey were first picks. I honestly don’t think they have any financing for the full 300million requirement same as the VB arena. Our city leadership went with it because they thought they were legit and now we’re in a place we’re deals shouldn’t be falling apart, especially ones that went through legislation hoops. Norfolks city government has been acting small time since Fraim left and even worse since we lost our city manager to Charlotte.

 

They went with them because at the time it was the only potentially viable path to a casino. As they were gearing up for the tribal approval process, the state approved casino gaming and Norfolk and the Pamunkey were already paired up. The only locality that had a true vetting process with multiple bids reviewed by the public was Richmond and the extra time it took killed it by the time the referendum came around. We will see how Round Two goes this November. 

It would of been nice if Norfolk had their choice of operators like the other cities but at the same time Norfolk’s proposal helped push casino gaming to the governor’s desk. Portsmouth probably won’t have their casino without Norfolk’s proposal.  

[Arctic_Tern]

4 hours ago, Si7i said:

Make no mistake The Cordish Company is excellent at entertainment complexes and casinos. I’ve been to a few of their properties and they have some deep pockets and entertainment knowledge. They participated in watersides redevelopment in the hopes of future development of a hotel or Appartments. All of there other properties either have hotel components, apartment, or casinos. The waterside you see today is just a place holder for that property by the company. Either Cordish is soured by city leadership opposing a tower development there (and the Casino by harbor park), they are waiting for this current casino deal to fall apart, waiting for city leadership to change, or running out their contractual obligation to waterside. But in no way does current waterside set the tone for what they are capable of. Waterside was destined to fail because of city leadership. Cordish was told by city officials that a they would get first pick at a casino, I have no idea why different proposals weren’t vetted and Pamunkey were first picks. I honestly don’t think they have any financing for the full 300million requirement same as the VB arena. Our city leadership went with it because they thought they were legit and now we’re in a place we’re deals shouldn’t be falling apart, especially ones that went through legislation hoops. Norfolks city government has been acting small time since Fraim left and even worse since we lost our city manager to Charlotte.

 

If they wanted to bring further investment why did they do so poorly with Waterside? Like even if Waterside is just a "placeholder" they did a pretty awful job with their design and vendor selection. The best part about that place is that it has the big light-up WATERSIDE letters that look good in pictures.

I'm also not a big fan of how Cordish has acted in-regards to the City, and honestly I am not really worried if a company with Cordish's temperament doesn't get the keys to keystone developments.

[baobabs727]

6 hours ago, HRVA said:

They went with them because at the time it was the only potentially viable path to a casino. As they were gearing up for the tribal approval process, the state approved casino gaming and Norfolk and the Pamunkey were already paired up. The only locality that had a true vetting process with multiple bids reviewed by the public was Richmond and the extra time it took killed it by the time the referendum came around. We will see how Round Two goes this November. 

It would of been nice if Norfolk had their choice of operators like the other cities but at the same time Norfolk’s proposal helped push casino gaming to the governor’s desk. Portsmouth probably won’t have their casino without Norfolk’s proposal. 

I disagree with much of what you said. RFP Norfolk was the only way to go:  Open, transparent, a best practice yielding the best product/end result. Blaming an RFP process for a failed referendum (RVA) is akin to blaming ultra modern medicine for failed cancer treatment.  The anti casino virus was already entrenched in Richmond prior to the RFP.  Portsmouth has nothing and no one to be thankful for ...beyond their own stick-to-it-iveness and ingenuity.  A RARE WIN FOR P-TOWN. KUDOS. 

[HRVA]

5 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

I disagree with much of what you said. RFP Norfolk was the only way to go:  Open, transparent, a best practice yielding the best product/end result. Blaming an RFP process for a failed referendum (RVA) is akin to blaming ultra modern medicine for failed cancer treatment.  The anti casino virus was already entrenched in Richmond prior to the RFP.  Portsmouth has nothing and no one to be thankful for ...beyond their own stick-to-it-iveness and ingenuity.  A RARE WIN FOR P-TOWN. KUDOS. 

I agree the RFP process is the way to go. The extra time was an unintended consequence. 

[SuffolkWahoo]

On a side note, I went to Rivers and found it quite nice.  A buddy and I went last Friday around 5:00 and had a good time.  It was clean, felt safe, and it was easy to get drinks.  I also like how they are putting in a "Yard House" restaurant.

[baobabs727]

3 hours ago, SuffolkWahoo said:

On a side note, I went to Rivers and found it quite nice.  A buddy and I went last Friday around 5:00 and had a good time.  It was clean, felt safe, and it was easy to get drinks.  I also like how they are putting in a "Yard House" restaurant.

Interesting on the Yard House element. Brings a certain "imprimatur" of the national players. Cool.

8 hours ago, HRVA said:

I agree the RFP process is the way to go. The extra time was an unintended consequence. 

Hoping for a  more robust "pro-casino" campaign for the next referendum. Hopefully the Portsmouth and Bristol success stories (thusfar) will help get out the pro-casino vote in Richmond. 

[Qdeathstar]

On 2/20/2023 at 3:04 PM, BeagleAccountant said:

Have y'all been to Waterside lately? With how poorly it's managed most days, I'm not sure I'd trust them with something so big.

Havnt been a a few years… pre COVID? It was nice when I went

[Lluck002]

On 12/22/2022 at 11:13 AM, vdogg said:

Buried in the article is a glimmer of hope. We are absolutely NOT bound to the Pumunkey, and can choose another operator once their option is up in 2 years. That's still a long time, but it leaves the door open to bringing someone in that actually knows what they're doing.

Honestly Bally’s wanted to build a sleek casino and tower in Richmond but we’re not chosen as the option. So they have an interest in the Virginia market. Maybe Norfolk could court them. And with the site being directly adjacent to the Amtrak station, and with expanded rail service happening, they could still attract a good amount of the Greater Richmond market, especially with their brand.

The best option though would be to put out an RFP for the site for walkable mixed-use, transit-oriented development and choose a high-profile, experienced developer from a larger market. A true expansion of Norfolk’s skyline is needed and the market can surely support mixed-use residential towers.