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Headwaters Resort & Casino (Proposed)


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I lived in her district...I believe she helped implement the Engage Norfolk event which allows residents to learn more about community initiatives. 

Her big platform is tech and flood resilience, but she usually supports progressive ideas found in other regions our size. I dunno who got to her.

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So as far as I can see, this is all about what the impact of a casino will do to people who have gambling or potential gambling addictions and perceive public threat? You would think in a city like Baltimore, a casino (in downtown mind you) would do awful things to a city that has its own share of problems. Nope, quite differently. Baltimore didn't even bother to improve the area around the casino, not that its horrible to begin with. Keep in mind, they have a hue population of homeless who live literally yards away.  A casino here acts more so like a gathering place. People come, they spend money, many just hang out, but its nothing like the death people are pretending it will be. Also, they are trying to breathe much needed activity into that area and additional purpose for the light rail stop. I like the move (gives me greater concern for that part of SPQ though).

I do believe the rendering and specs is BS per typical Norfolk. Come in with a grand idea  and then it is reduced considerably. I think i'm more so afraid of them half way doing that then anything. There are like 5 casinos here (MD) all within a hour's drive. 2 are less than 20 miles apart (Horseshoe in dt bmore, and Live near bwi). When MGM was built in the national harbor, they built out with a hotel component. When LIVE built out (the first casino in the immediate area), it did not have a hotel component. Then they rushed to add a hotel component after the fact; one suspects because they were going to loose the competition battle without it. Norfolk should urge the tribe to do it right the first time. Or build it in a way that allows them to expand when it comes the time. A casino will be super popular in the 757 consider its placement, lack of pro sports, and relationship to different activities you get in other areas.

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I am a constituent in her district, and I have been very happy with how she has done so far. She has pushed for a lot of things that people on this forum want, and she has always been an advocate for getting people involved in local politics. 

What I think she's worried about is not the fact that there's a casino that is going to be built, it's that she hasn't agreed with the process in how it's been handled. I think she sees this as a very significant development for the city and a decision that should not be taken lightly nor too quickly. To make sure there is actual community buy-in and not a sense that the city tried to pull a fast one on its citizens.

23 hours ago, brikkman said:

So as far as I can see, this is all about what the impact of a casino will do to people who have gambling or potential gambling addictions and perceive public threat? You would think in a city like Baltimore, a casino (in downtown mind you) would do awful things to a city that has its own share of problems. Nope, quite differently. Baltimore didn't even bother to improve the area around the casino, not that its horrible to begin with. Keep in mind, they have a hue population of homeless who live literally yards away.  A casino here acts more so like a gathering place. People come, they spend money, many just hang out, but its nothing like the death people are pretending it will be. Also, they are trying to breathe much needed activity into that area and additional purpose for the light rail stop. I like the move (gives me greater concern for that part of SPQ though).

I do believe the rendering and specs is BS per typical Norfolk. Come in with a grand idea  and then it is reduced considerably. I think i'm more so afraid of them half way doing that then anything. There are like 5 casinos here (MD) all within a hour's drive. 2 are less than 20 miles apart (Horseshoe in dt bmore, and Live near bwi). When MGM was built in the national harbor, they built out with a hotel component. When LIVE built out (the first casino in the immediate area), it did not have a hotel component. Then they rushed to add a hotel component after the fact; one suspects because they were going to loose the competition battle without it. Norfolk should urge the tribe to do it right the first time. Or build it in a way that allows them to expand when it comes the time. A casino will be super popular in the 757 consider its placement, lack of pro sports, and relationship to different activities you get in other areas.

How can the city control what they do? All the tribe has to do is reach the minimum requirements of the agreement of the land sale and that's it. The city has no leverage to influence the tribe's decision making.

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5 hours ago, Arctic_Tern said:

What I think she's worried about is not the fact that there's a casino that is going to be built, it's that she hasn't agreed with the process in how it's been handled. I think she sees this as a very significant development for the city and a decision that should not be taken lightly nor too quickly. To make sure there is actual community buy-in and not a sense that the city tried to pull a fast one on its citizens.

This is how I understand it as well.  It's more that she's calling a process foul on the city rather than fighting the actual development.  She just wants more transparency and if you follow the Downtown Norfolk Civic League meetings regarding this, there hasn't been much from the city.  Most of the residents' questions are either unanswered or vague, yet the city is rushing it through the process.

Edited by Ghentite
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I don't know how transparent the city is being but I can tell you that the first article was written and then posted on this site Dec. 19th 2018. I'm sure the talks with the city began long before the article. My guesstimate is we are working on almost a full year the city has been in talks with this tribe about the development.  

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So you two buy her story. Fair enough. Myself, living in her district, watching her closely and corresponding with her over the past couple of years, I believe that she is actually against the Casino on multiple grounds and is merely trying to throw a few wrenches in the works in an attempt to slow the city's roll to buy her time to build and organize the opposition. 

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1 hour ago, baobabs727 said:

So you two buy her story. Fair enough. Myself, living in her district, watching her closely and corresponding with her over the past couple of years, I believe that she is actually against the Casino on multiple grounds and is merely trying to throw a few wrenches in the works in an attempt to slow the city's roll to buy her time to build and organize the opposition. 

This is how I see it. I just don’t see her ever coming around to yes. As a councilwoman, she’s been part of these negotiations for the better part of a year. There is nothing really unknown to her. She’s just decided she’s against the casino, and all her actions to date have been in service of that decision.

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8 minutes ago, vdogg said:

This is how I see it. I just don’t see her ever coming around to yes. As a councilwoman, she’s been part of these negotiations for the better part of a year. There is nothing really unknown to her. She’s just decided she’s against the casino, and all her actions to date have been in service of that decision.

I would be interested in hearing why Courtney Doyle thinks we should move forward and see where the differences lie. They are usually in lockstep together.

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As I said earlier, I wonder how much she's against this if it's not downtown? I think she's okay with it (in spite of her feeling it's being rushed), but the constituents are pushing her to make this a hard no. And if she goes against them and says she supports it, then she potentially loses their vote. It's an unfair position if she really does support this.

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6 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

So you two buy her story. Fair enough. Myself, living in her district, watching her closely and corresponding with her over the past couple of years, I believe that she is actually against the Casino on multiple grounds and is merely trying to throw a few wrenches in the works in an attempt to slow the city's roll to buy her time to build and organize the opposition. 

It's not just how much she knows, it's how much the community knows. For the life of me I can't even find a map that shows the land that we're giving away. How long has the public known about the stipulations in the land deal? And how many times has the City provided open forums for citizens to discuss issues focused on the casino?

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On 10/4/2019 at 11:52 PM, NFKjeff said:

The city of Norfolk is not giving away the land in which this development will stand, they are selling it at it’s assessed value of 10 million dollars.

Oh lord you understand what I mean. Let me rephrase it: "For the life of me I can't even find a map that shows the land that we're selling to a tribe that we will no longer have any regulatory control over"

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6 hours ago, NFKjeff said:

Yes, I understood what you meant as far as not seeing the borders of the land in question, but the difference between giving the land away and selling it is a big distinction. 

I really don't think so in this context. Yes we are getting compensation for the land, but it's not like another normal sale where we could potentially buy-back the land in 50-100 years if the development doesn't pan out. This is a very permanent thing and the fact that we don't even know what exactly is going to be transferred has to be at least a little disconcerting, right? 

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Who else is stepping up to the plate and offering $$ for this long-abandoned parking lot?

"...it's not like any other sale where we could potentially buy-back the land in 50-100 years..." ???

Well, I cannot see into the future, but the advent of any circumstances under which we would be buying back this particular plot of land ...in 50-100 years ...escapes me.

Won't it be under water by then anyway?

Edited by baobabs727
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8 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

Well, I cannot see into the future, but the advent of any circumstances under which we would be buying back this particular plot of land ...in 50-100 years ...escapes me.

What about in three years, if the plans to build the casino fall through?  What about in 20 years, if the casino does not make the huge money everyone is assuming it will produce, and the Pamunkey tribe decides to close the casino?

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13 hours ago, virginia pe said:

What about in three years, if the plans to build the casino fall through?  What about in 20 years, if the casino does not make the huge money everyone is assuming it will produce, and the Pamunkey tribe decides to close the casino?

Remember, it's the Tennessee billionaire who will be financing this project. What makes you think that either he or the Tribe would want to keep idle a totally non-performing asset...in your scenario? In that case, the City would likely be first-in-line to buy-back this flood-prone plot--at a steep discount no less haha!

Seriously though, this land is currently generating zero dollars, and there are no other buyers...nor have there been since the dawn of time! 

$10M certainly isn't chump change here, especially in these times of diminishing returns on waterfront/water-adjacent properties.  Especially for a severely cash-strapped Norfolk which, frankly,  has no business being in the real estate business ....i.e, as in holding vacant land ...except in rare circumstances.

Should the project fail, it will likely be sold off and redeveloped with Fed Govt approval...or redeveloped by the Tribe and investor.  However, I'm pretty certain they will succeed, with Norfolk getting the $10M plus yearly seven figure payments, economic spin-off benefits and jobs, jobs, jobs. 

Of course we could always just plant some seagrass and wait for the tide to roll in....

 

Edited by baobabs727
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I'm feeling a bit better about the project now that I've found this site: https://www.norfolk.gov/4661/Resort-Casino

Have any of y'all seen it before? I don't want to be obstinate, but I hadn't seen it before and it was pretty hard to find (had to search "norfolk.gov casino" in google, "norfolk casino" and similar searches wouldn't pull it up). Was it distributed very much? 

This part still worries me, from the Q/A: 

Does the agreement with the city require the reported $700 million investment?

The total investment will be based on the scope of the final project.   At a minimum the tribe will construct a project that includes 750 electronic gaming machines, 25 gaming tables, 150 hotel guest rooms (if Class III gaming is approved), and parking.

I've seen this city bait-and-switched on too many times to get too caught up in the shiny $700MM promises and renderings and whatnot. I really hope they actually put good money into this thing and don't just meet the minimum requirements. And the "if Class III gaming is approved" is interesting. What if it isn't approved? What parts of the deal fall through if that happens?

Edited by Arctic_Tern
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Prepare yourselves for yet another failed major endeavor in HR. That's right Nimbys, just go ahead and stop everything. Any major project, ever, runs into this. It's tiresome...

"While Barnett is against it, she insists the petition is not to stop it, but rather to slow the process down."

This is a lie. The sole purpose of the petition is to stop the casino. This is just what she tells people who may want the process to slow down, but don't want to do anything drastic that will impede Norfolk. 

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