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Greater Memphis Area - Suburbs, North Mississippi, East Arkansas


VSRJ

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17 minutes ago, Wayward Memphian said:

I disagree, no one wants to drive through Memphis, This routes lots of through trucks out of the city., basically diverting I-55 traffic from going through Memphis. And...Arkansas would welcome all the sprawl(exonomic development) it can get quite frankly.

At least one new bridge is woefully needed as the bridge closure made perfectly clear. Two would actually give Memphis a "for real" loop. 

All different perspectives I guess. 

Tunica would welcome the sprawl too - just don't know how much they'd get though.

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On 8/10/2022 at 9:06 PM, Wayward Memphian said:

I disagree, no one wants to drive through Memphis, This routes lots of through trucks out of the city., basically diverting I-55 traffic from going through Memphis. And...Arkansas would welcome all the sprawl(exonomic development) it can get quite frankly.

At least one new bridge is woefully needed as the bridge closure made perfectly clear. Two would actually give Memphis a "for real" loop. 

All different perspectives I guess. 

Memphis has some of the easiest interstates to drive on, as far as that comment no one wants to drive through Memphis that sounds a little personal and negative dont speak for everyone.  In terms of sprawl as an architect and person in the field sprawl is bad especially in a poor area where there is not enough tax base to fund adequate transportation.  new neighborhoods and growth within the existing  street system which is great here is the most sustainable and beneficial development.  I like to think about sustainable growth vs doing whats the norm.  Lets look at the traffic of atlanta, nashville, dallas, houston and very sprawling cities and see how well this idea is working.

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Yeah...driving through Memphis is a breeze compared to driving through Nashville (unless you take 840). Of course, it bottlenecks in spots during rush hour. Before I moved to Nashville, I commuted downtown from Bartlett, and traffic was rarely an issue.

Edited by VSRJ
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2 hours ago, Memphis4ever said:

Memphis has some of the easiest interstates to drive on, as far as that comment no one wants to drive through Memphis that sounds a little personal and negative dont speak for everyone.  In terms of sprawl as an architect and person in the field sprawl is bad especially in a poor area where there is not enough tax base to fund adequate transportation.  new neighborhoods and growth within the existing  street system which is great here is the most sustainable and beneficial development.  I like to think about sustainable growth vs doing whats the norm.  Lets look at the traffic of atlanta, nashville, dallas, houston and very sprawling cities and see how well this idea is working.

Having the talked about insterstate extensions/bridges wouldn't necessitate sprawl.  Those can exist going through undeveloped/farm land.  Building them wouldn't mean that the suburbs would extend out to that new loop.  

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2 hours ago, MDC26 said:

Having the talked about insterstate extensions/bridges wouldn't necessitate sprawl.  Those can exist going through undeveloped/farm land.  Building them wouldn't mean that the suburbs would extend out to that new loop.  

 

4 hours ago, Memphis4ever said:

Memphis has some of the easiest interstates to drive on, as far as that comment no one wants to drive through Memphis that sounds a little personal and negative dont speak for everyone.  In terms of sprawl as an architect and person in the field sprawl is bad especially in a poor area where there is not enough tax base to fund adequate transportation.  new neighborhoods and growth within the existing  street system which is great here is the most sustainable and beneficial development.  I like to think about sustainable growth vs doing whats the norm.  Lets look at the traffic of atlanta, nashville, dallas, houston and very sprawling cities and see how well this idea is working.

It’s almost like we’ve been programmed to think that a lot of traffic means progress and growth. Sustainable growth, probably being used in Memphis, is seen as slow and negative. 
 

Question for you, Mr./ms. architect: with the normality of 2-3 story buildings downtown and in midtown (anything built before the 50s), do you think that is the reason why there is a hesitancy to build anything tall in Memphis? Will it take away from the “sense of place”? 

Edited by The Guardian of Memphis
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4 hours ago, The Guardian of Memphis said:

 

It’s almost like we’ve been programmed to think that a lot of traffic means progress and growth. Sustainable growth, probably being used in Memphis, is seen as slow and negative. 
 

Question for you, Mr./ms. architect: with the normality of 2-3 story buildings downtown and in midtown (anything built before the 50s), do you think that is the reason why there is a hesitancy to build anything tall in Memphis? Will it take away from the “sense of place”? 

I don’t think it’s a lack of want, I think it’s from a lack of need need, or financing. The only building over 15 stories that has been built in the last 30 years was halted in the middle of construction, because the developer went bankrupt, and was held up in court a couple years before it could be completed. There have also been plans that have fallen through (trinity tower, Artesian II, Vue on Main, multiple versions of One Beale). I don’t know if there’s excessive cost implications when going taller to comply with seismic standards either. However, there’s quite a bit of proposals now for 200ft+ buildings. If we are lucky, we will see many of these come to fruition. 

Memphis area has now reached a record number of jobs - 661,700. This is 3,800 more pre pandemic.  Hopefully, we will continue to see this rise (especially with Blue Oval), and will see a rise in population too. 

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4 hours ago, MDC26 said:

I don’t think it’s a lack of want, I think it’s from a lack of need need, or financing. The only building over 15 stories that has been built in the last 30 years was halted in the middle of construction, because the developer went bankrupt, and was held up in court a couple years before it could be completed. There have also been plans that have fallen through (trinity tower, Artesian II, Vue on Main, multiple versions of One Beale). I don’t know if there’s excessive cost implications when going taller to comply with seismic standards either. However, there’s quite a bit of proposals now for 200ft+ buildings. If we are lucky, we will see many of these come to fruition. 

Memphis area has now reached a record number of jobs - 661,700. This is 3,800 more pre pandemic.  Hopefully, we will continue to see this rise (especially with Blue Oval), and will see a rise in population too. 

Memphis does have a few issues that make building tall a bit more costly we have clay and silty soil that will liquefy in seismic activity not to mention the Mississippi River which makes all foundations for anything tall downtown require many pilings.  Also Memphis has/had lots of existing buildings to fill up or downtown had lots of warehouses and old buildings which have been renovated and converted to many lofts and apartments.  Recently we are getting more 5 to 7 story apartment proposals Memphis does like to preserve a street character and sense of place one can talk about tall buildings but the smaller buildings equate to more affordable and more desirable streets.   Will Memphis build taller yes now that we have filled most of the empty buildings downtown and have seen new out of state investors with more confidence and deeper pockets larger buildings will be built.   I do think however the city does a good job of using minority contracts, affordability and this types of things when receiving public dollars as a tool to keep developments fair.   People that don't live in Memphis don't really understand the tremendous growth not just in the city but the surrounding areas.  We have a lot not space and vacant land in Memphis so tall building are not a necessity yet with the cost vs profit margin.  With these 2000 to 4000 dollar a month apartments being built everywhere and leasing almost instantly I'm sure condos can be supported at those prices.   The 1 beale development is a project I think many larger investors are waiting to see finish before they make a move its a process People are not as familiar with Memphis as it works a little different than most cities. 

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18 hours ago, MDC26 said:

I don’t think it’s a lack of want, I think it’s from a lack of need need, or financing. The only building over 15 stories that has been built in the last 30 years was halted in the middle of construction, because the developer went bankrupt, and was held up in court a couple years before it could be completed. There have also been plans that have fallen through (trinity tower, Artesian II, Vue on Main, multiple versions of One Beale). I don’t know if there’s excessive cost implications when going taller to comply with seismic standards either. However, there’s quite a bit of proposals now for 200ft+ buildings. If we are lucky, we will see many of these come to fruition. 

Memphis area has now reached a record number of jobs - 661,700. This is 3,800 more pre pandemic.  Hopefully, we will continue to see this rise (especially with Blue Oval), and will see a rise in population too. 

That’s definitely some encouraging news. Ted Townsend, chamber commerce president, recently gave a speech in collierville about that and the number of corporations that call the area home: 

https://dailymemphian.com/article/30270/ted-townsend-memphis-collierville-chamber-ford

I remember the vue, artesian, etc. It was like a dream come true…just shocked at how all these projects never get off the ground. All of those projects could’ve changed Memphis skyline. 2001 seemed like it was our year. 
 

Another question. If developers aren’t afraid to build that high (that’s a relief for sure), let’s say someone wants to build tall on front st. or next to commerce square, will they complain about their views of the river being blocked? That seems to be a big deal. Also, it seems that the powers that be don’t want the skyline to change because it may look unbalanced if one were to look at it driving on I-55 going north or from the rivermark for instance. All four of the tallest buildings form a pyramid if looking at it from one angle. 

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The lack of height has always surprised me. With the magnificent view of the Mississippi, you would think developers would want to offer as many unobstructed views of the river as possible, which of course almost always necessitates height.

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On 8/17/2022 at 1:28 PM, VSRJ said:

The lack of height has always surprised me. With the magnificent view of the Mississippi, you would think developers would want to offer as many unobstructed views of the river as possible, which of course almost always necessitates height.

Yeah really. If the soil was so poor and earthquake prone, which causes a restriction on height, how can one account for Clark Tower & 100 N. Main?

I also think that the height of the older structures like Sterick, DT Porter, Memphis Trust (Madison Hotel) are the guides as to how tall skyscrapers can be downtown. If a super tall would be built, it would dwarf the older buildings and probably not look as good since we have a great supply of older structures.  My hope is that the skyline will improve someday. Memphis has legendary status by simply being on the greatest waterway in our nation, so it deserves to have a skyline worthy of the powerful river that it was founded on. St. Louis, Minneapolis and New Orleans all have supertalls - Memphis should be on the same level or close to it.

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On 8/16/2022 at 2:48 AM, Memphis4ever said:

Memphis does have a few issues that make building tall a bit more costly we have clay and silty soil that will liquefy in seismic activity not to mention the Mississippi River which makes all foundations for anything tall downtown require many pilings.  Also Memphis has/had lots of existing buildings to fill up or downtown had lots of warehouses and old buildings which have been renovated and converted to many lofts and apartments.  Recently we are getting more 5 to 7 story apartment proposals Memphis does like to preserve a street character and sense of place one can talk about tall buildings but the smaller buildings equate to more affordable and more desirable streets.   Will Memphis build taller yes now that we have filled most of the empty buildings downtown and have seen new out of state investors with more confidence and deeper pockets larger buildings will be built.   I do think however the city does a good job of using minority contracts, affordability and this types of things when receiving public dollars as a tool to keep developments fair.   People that don't live in Memphis don't really understand the tremendous growth not just in the city but the surrounding areas.  We have a lot not space and vacant land in Memphis so tall building are not a necessity yet with the cost vs profit margin.  With these 2000 to 4000 dollar a month apartments being built everywhere and leasing almost instantly I'm sure condos can be supported at those prices.   The 1 beale development is a project I think many larger investors are waiting to see finish before they make a move its a process People are not as familiar with Memphis as it works a little different than most cities. 

I hope 1 Beale, the Walk and the Pinch are catalysts. Henry Turley Sr. said that his dream was for the skyline to be from the Rivermark apartments to the bridge (I'm paraphrasing), so there's a lot of space left for that vision to come true. There is definitely a demand for condos. I think the plan is to rehab and reuse all old buildings, get rid of all the blight, then promote new construction. There are many places new skyscrapers can be built: Union and Main, Civic Plaza, Jefferson Plaza, Pinch District, etc. The footprint of these buildings don't have to be as wide either, maybe a scaled down version of New York's "tall skinny skyscraper".

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2 hours ago, The Guardian of Memphis said:

I hope 1 Beale, the Walk and the Pinch are catalysts. Henry Turley Sr. said that his dream was for the skyline to be from the Rivermark apartments to the bridge (I'm paraphrasing), so there's a lot of space left for that vision to come true. There is definitely a demand for condos. I think the plan is to rehab and reuse all old buildings, get rid of all the blight, then promote new construction. There are many places new skyscrapers can be built: Union and Main, Civic Plaza, Jefferson Plaza, Pinch District, etc. The footprint of these buildings don't have to be as wide either, maybe a scaled down version of New York's "tall skinny skyscraper".

The skyline could be from the pinch to MLK. From there it’s a bunch of historic low rises in the warehouse and South Main arts districts. Not much room for new development. There can be a grouping of mid- to high-rises around the South end by the Rivermark and Artesian. 

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On 8/18/2022 at 9:22 PM, MDC26 said:

The skyline could be from the pinch to MLK. From there it’s a bunch of historic low rises in the warehouse and South Main arts districts. Not much room for new development. There can be a grouping of mid- to high-rises around the South end by the Rivermark and Artesian. 

True...It could also extend eastward all the way into the Medical District and stopping at 240 with the bulk being mid rises and sprinkling in some high (not in the Edge and Victorian Village) around Madison, Poplar, Dunlap.

From there it would blend nicely with Southern College of Optometry, and the hospital buildings on Union and Cleveland.

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On 8/16/2022 at 4:39 PM, The Guardian of Memphis said:

That’s definitely some encouraging news. Ted Townsend, chamber commerce president, recently gave a speech in collierville about that and the number of corporations that call the area home: 

https://dailymemphian.com/article/30270/ted-townsend-memphis-collierville-chamber-ford

I remember the vue, artesian, etc. It was like a dream come true…just shocked at how all these projects never get off the ground. All of those projects could’ve changed Memphis skyline. 2001 seemed like it was our year. 
 

Another question. If developers aren’t afraid to build that high (that’s a relief for sure), let’s say someone wants to build tall on front st. or next to commerce square, will they complain about their views of the river being blocked? That seems to be a big deal. Also, it seems that the powers that be don’t want the skyline to change because it may look unbalanced if one were to look at it driving on I-55 going north or from the rivermark for instance. All four of the tallest buildings form a pyramid if looking at it from one angle. 

The artesian is built and open

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The best location for infill on Front Street is the surface parking lot between the Falls Building and the former Raymond James Tower. Currently, an AC Marriott is proposed for the site. The best solution is for the demolition of the suburban Moxy Hotel (formerly Sleep Inn) and develop the full half block with a multiple brand hotel, containing  ground floor retail, podium parking, and the parking garage wrapped by hotel rooms, with event space at the top along with a rooftop bar. The building should approach the height of the Raymond James Tower, approximately 20 stories. This site has great views of the River, Court Square, and the 4th Bluff Park. To me it is the most desirable real estate left once the Grand Hyatt site is developed.  The City made a huge mistake with the Downtown Mobility Center, it should have contained a hotel and/or condominiums above the parking garage.

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1 hour ago, DowntownUrbanite said:

The best location for infill on Front Street is the surface parking lot between the Falls Building and the former Raymond James Tower. Currently, an AC Marriott is proposed for the site. The best solution is for the demolition of the suburban Moxy Hotel (formerly Sleep Inn) and develop the full half block with a multiple brand hotel, containing  ground floor retail, podium parking, and the parking garage wrapped by hotel rooms, with event space at the top along with a rooftop bar. The building should approach the height of the Raymond James Tower, approximately 20 stories. This site has great views of the River, Court Square, and the 4th Bluff Park. To me it is the most desirable real estate left once the Grand Hyatt site is developed.  The City made a huge mistake with the Downtown Mobility Center, it should have contained a hotel and/or condominiums above the parking garage.

Originally, there were plans to put space on top of the garage for a restaurant before that got removed from the final design. With the development being transit-oriented - coupled with concerns about uniformity with adjacent buildings, any prospect of putting a hotel or residential on top of it was probably not in the cards. There is, however, great potential to put something vertical on the lot right across the street (next to Hard Rock Cafe) to compliment not only the three Hyatts, but also the planned Dream Hotel on top of the former Royal Furniture building. I really thought it would be the perfect spot to put a Hard Rock Hotel and still think so to this day - even with the company looking to build on the current Jerry Lee Lewis/former Pat O'Brien's site across from Handy Park.

As for the surface lot you mentioned on Front near Court Square, call me a skeptic for there had been plans going as far back as 15 years ago to put something in that spot - with the last proposal being an Embassy Suites that was never built. And with both Falls and the former Morgan Keegan/Raymond James building set to undergo conversions into residential over the next couple of years, it'll likely complicate things when it comes to how to best utilize that piece of property coupled with parking concerns and the like.

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On 8/21/2022 at 11:44 AM, Memphis4ever said:

The artesian is built and open

The Artisean (Horizon) had a 2nd tower that never got off the ground. That's probably what they meant.

I hope the new owners build another tower on the site. I know originally it wasn't their plan, and both buildings were supposed to apartments.  Those condos sold fast after they were finished.  It should be a consideration. 

Edited by TheKernel91
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Since we touched on old projects in the early 00s that didn't get off. Dose anybody know what happened to this project in East Memphis? I saw this a couple times in the old picture thread. This was in 2006 when this was taken. Look really nice. E. Memphis should of gotten more attention in Condo buildings. The 2nd photo is the site where it was planned.

DSC00796.jpg

DSC00797.jpg

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On 8/21/2022 at 10:08 PM, The Guardian of Memphis said:

Thanks.  I meant the Mirabella. :D

I don't mind that the Mirabella didn't happen in that spot.  That spot got renovated and became the Old Dominick Distillery and the Gray Canary restaurant.  I did like the design of the Mirabella, so I'd be fine if it got revived for somewhere else.  

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22 hours ago, TheKernel91 said:

Since we touched on old projects in the early 00s that didn't get off. Dose anybody know what happened to this project in East Memphis? I saw this a couple times in the old picture thread. This was in 2006 when this was taken. Look really nice. E. Memphis should of gotten more attention in Condo buildings. The 2nd photo is the site where it was planned.

DSC00796.jpg

DSC00797.jpg

I believe that site became a senior living facility that just opened recently. As to why the condos were never built, there was a lot of push back from neighbors who were opposed to the project because of its height (the area consists of single family homes and a few buildings no taller than 3 stories for the most part).

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1 hour ago, MDC26 said:

I don't mind that the Mirabella didn't happen in that spot.  That spot got renovated and became the Old Dominick Distillery and the Gray Canary restaurant.  I did like the design of the Mirabella, so I'd be fine if it got revived for somewhere else.  

I'm glad it happened too, but I would've liked to have seen more height.

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On 8/21/2022 at 7:06 PM, DowntownUrbanite said:

The best location for infill on Front Street is the surface parking lot between the Falls Building and the former Raymond James Tower. Currently, an AC Marriott is proposed for the site. The best solution is for the demolition of the suburban Moxy Hotel (formerly Sleep Inn) and develop the full half block with a multiple brand hotel, containing  ground floor retail, podium parking, and the parking garage wrapped by hotel rooms, with event space at the top along with a rooftop bar. The building should approach the height of the Raymond James Tower, approximately 20 stories. This site has great views of the River, Court Square, and the 4th Bluff Park. To me it is the most desirable real estate left once the Grand Hyatt site is developed.  The City made a huge mistake with the Downtown Mobility Center, it should have contained a hotel and/or condominiums above the parking garage.

Maybe they did make a mistake with the Mobility Center, but maybe their plans are to still put a hotel and residential units in the area, according to their master plan (hopefully it'll be a mid to high rise to accommodate views of the river):

image.png.bd76e972828f273933008cd402ee49d6.png

 

image.png.b62f9fe12e3a1e55ff1602f6fb7433a7.png

 

I agree with your ideas about the hotels on Court Square, and the DMC wants a hotel in front of the Falls Bldg., but maybe it'll be residential:

image.png.79c2a2e22040b848b1125f6771df12f4.png

Edited by The Guardian of Memphis
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1 hour ago, The Guardian of Memphis said:

Maybe they did make a mistake with the Mobility Center, but maybe their plans are to still put a hotel and residential units in the area, according to their master plan (hopefully it'll be a mid to high rise to accommodate views of the river):

image.png.bd76e972828f273933008cd402ee49d6.png

 

image.png.b62f9fe12e3a1e55ff1602f6fb7433a7.png

 

I agree with your ideas about the hotels on Court Square, and the DMC wants a hotel in front of the Falls Bldg., but maybe it'll be residential:

image.png.79c2a2e22040b848b1125f6771df12f4.png

I think the mobility center will be good.  I believe that this downtown masterplan, was a 3rd party's design and recommendations for possible uses.  The city didn't say this is what we're going to do, it was more like, this is what could be done.  I think they decided to go with the mobility center at this lot when new plans came to be, as there was increased demand for parking with the 3 Hyatt hotels.  This garage will serve the Orpheum, One Beale, Beale St, Beale St Landing, Autozone HQ's, and could even help with Brooks museum parking.  If a Hard Rock Hotel were to be built on the parking lot to its East, it could serve it as well.  Even though it doesn't look like the restaurant at the top will be built, it will be more than just a parking garage.  Most of the street level is supposed to have retail bays (13k+ sqft.)  It will also have a bike commuter area with bicycle rental, storage, and showers.  There was also mention of covered rideshare pickup locations, and there will be charging stations.  And then there's that cool set of stairs.  This is so much better than just the surface parking lot that has been there.  There's still opportunity to build residential at the MLGW lot and hotel at the parking lot to the East.  

Edited by MDC26
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