Upstate S.C.

[CLT_sc]

Just saw this new website intended to help attract talent to the upstate.  I really like the idea of a website to attract new residents to the area.  All metros in S.C. should have this.  The site addresses a long running issue that the upstate does not have a lot of talent to attract corporate relocations.  Growth has been fueled in large part by retirees (Greenville County over 65 population is over 15%). So, good to see a site aimed at attracting a younger crowd.  

https://moveupstatesc.com/

However, the execution is not great.  First, the area should not compare itself to Nashville, Austin, Atlanta or Charlotte.  For the most part, people looking to live in these cities either want a big city type environment or have a job at one of the many companies in these cities.  The upstate is in no way a peer.

Second, the cost of living comparison with these cities is not a good story to tell.  While the upstate is certainly cheaper, the small gap will easily be made up for in much higher wages in the other cities.

Finally, the higher education portion had to be written by a Clemson grad.  Harvard, Duke, Stanford are “prestigious” universities.  Clemson simply is not in that league.  Carrying the paragraph forward, segregating  Furman and Wofford  as only  “respectable” is somewhat of a joke.  Either of these schools is more challenging in like classes.  And, both Furman and Wofford have produced many Rhodes Scholars, business leaders, doctors, lawyers etc.... Clemson has yet to produce one Rhodes Scholar.  Now, granted, neither is a football school.  But, Wofford did produce a graduate who owned a professional football team.

[GvilleSC]

Your insecurities are embarrassing. 

To set the record straight from my real life experience: nobody working for companies with presences in both cities, are making more money in Charlotte than they would be in Greenville (or Columbia, or Charleston) for the same position. 

[CLT_sc]

16 minutes ago, GvilleSC said:

Your insecurities are embarrassing. 

To set the record straight from my real life experience: nobody working for companies with presences in both cities, are making more money in Charlotte than they would be in Greenville (or Columbia, or Charleston) for the same position. 

Insecurities, that does not even make sense.  Besides, why the personal attacks?

For further clarification, the average HHI in Mecklenburg county compared with Greenville is almost 20% higher.  Your personal experience may be true.  However, there are just many more job opportunities in the cities listed on the website.  That is the exact reason they should have been left off.  And to say your COL is marginally lower  while the income levels are so different is not a great selling point.

From a real life experience, A lot of people move to Charlotte from the upstate.  They comment on how they liked being downtown Greenville at first, but that was it.  And, after a couple of weeks, it was stale.  Furthermore, the opportunity to move around and grow your career is limited.  In no way do they mention how great it is that Greenville is cheaper.  

[GvilleSC]

Charlotte is a great place to live if you're a financial analyst. However, this is not a Charlotte forum.

We all see what you're attempting to do here, and you've attempted it all before under a different screen name. Bye! #troll

[CLT_sc]

8 minutes ago, GvilleSC said:

Charlotte is a great place to live if you're a financial analyst. However, this is not a Charlotte forum.

We all see what you're attempting to do here, and you've attempted it all before under a different screen name. Bye! #troll

You’re wrong about me, you’re wrong about what I am “attempting” to do and you’re very very wrong about Charlotte.

And, this “troll” name calling is childish

What I am attempting to do is provide constructive criticism about a website that will not help SC.  To say, “hey, we are slightly cheaper than big cities” is a losing strategy.  It may help with retirees, but not with younger professionals who can make a lot more $$ elsewhere.  

As a state, SC needs to ramp up recruitment of professional type jobs in addition to manufacturing.  The state needs to invest in higher education as referenced in my other thread.  The state has to be persistent in recruiting wherever a professional company wants to locate.  

For Greenville, a good start would be to market the cheaper rents in the high amount of vacant office space downtown for 200 job operations.  To post an ask price of $35 for anything in Greenville is silly.  The space at One, Liberty, Poinsett and other buildings with large blocks of space at materially cheaper rents will go a long way.  To try and recruit people with a marginal cost advantage is not a good strategy.

the insecurity is continuing to ignore issues that won’t help and make blanket assumptions like “Charlotte is good for a FA” instead of understanding what may or may not work.

[distortedlogic]

4 hours ago, CLT_sc said:

You’re wrong about me, you’re wrong about what I am “attempting” to do and you’re very very wrong about Charlotte.

And, this “troll” name calling is childish

What I am attempting to do is provide constructive criticism about a website that will not help SC.  To say, “hey, we are slightly cheaper than big cities” is a losing strategy.  It may help with retirees, but not with younger professionals who can make a lot more $$ elsewhere.  

As a state, SC needs to ramp up recruitment of professional type jobs in addition to manufacturing.  The state needs to invest in higher education as referenced in my other thread.  The state has to be persistent in recruiting wherever a professional company wants to locate.  

For Greenville, a good start would be to market the cheaper rents in the high amount of vacant office space downtown for 200 job operations.  To post an ask price of $35 for anything in Greenville is silly.  The space at One, Liberty, Poinsett and other buildings with large blocks of space at materially cheaper rents will go a long way.  To try and recruit people with a marginal cost advantage is not a good strategy.

the insecurity is continuing to ignore issues that won’t help and make blanket assumptions like “Charlotte is good for a FA” instead of understanding what may or may not work.

If you are not the poster he is referring to, then I'm sure you'll be welcome to share positive and negative thoughts on the area. However,  so far, your  posting style eerily matches up with that particular poster. He or she persistently started threads to point out where GSP falls short or "does not measure up," continually used Charlotte as a utopian like measuring stick for where Greenville fails, insisted on finding numbers on every index to "prove" its successes are smoke screens, and habitually used condescending language about the upstate/ Greenville area, despite not living here. Apparently the poster used to live here but had a personal vendetta against the area for some reason and was bent on belittling it. This continued for lengthy periods through multiple handles. Since you brought up the word "childish", that particular poster's presence here (and other boards) was the epitome of childishness. 

If you are not that poster, we'll be happy to discuss the area with you, both good and bad. But many of us have our doubts simply based on your posting style. 

[CLT_sc]

1 hour ago, distortedlogic said:

If you are not the poster he is referring to, then I'm sure you'll be welcome to share positive and negative thoughts on the area. However,  so far, your  posting style eerily matches up with that particular poster. He or she persistently started threads to point out where GSP falls short or "does not measure up," continually used Charlotte as a utopian like measuring stick for where Greenville fails, insisted on finding numbers on every index to "prove" its successes are smoke screens, and habitually used condescending language about the upstate/ Greenville area, despite not living here. Apparently the poster used to live here but had a personal vendetta against the area for some reason and was bent on belittling it. This continued for lengthy periods through multiple handles. Since you brought up the word "childish", that particular poster's presence here (and other boards) was the epitome of childishness. 

If you are not that poster, we'll be happy to discuss the area with you, both good and bad. But many of us have our doubts simply based on your posting style. 

Distorted,  thanks for the perspective.  I do live in Charlotte being originally from the upstate. So, yes, it may appear that I am the bad poster.   But, no, I have been reading this board for a short while, primarily in Charlotte forums.  And, since I am from SC, I do have a strong interest in the state.  Charlotte, while growing in all areas, certainly has challenges.  The largest of which is infrastructure and the state’s lack of interest in bringing it up to modern day standards.  

Gvillesc was fairly aggressive in coming after me so I may have come off as  little aggressive.    His comment that Charlotte is good if you are a financial analyst is extremely naive.  So, yes, I defended  the city.

 My references to Charlotte in the thread are only to talk about how the website  should not be using us in an argument to lure residents to the upstate.  I think the arguments made in the website are weak and not compelling.  

Instead, I would have focused more on proximity to the mountains, Main St., and activities that are unique to the upstate.  Simply stating that you are cheaper than larger metros will not resonate with a younger crowd, it is fairly obvious.  And, the salary differences are stronger in the cites mentioned on the website. This is an area that should not have been mentioned at all. The education portion was just poorly written and grossly inaccurate.

In an ideal world,  SC would have a better recruiting push for professional jobs.  Greenville and Columbia would be prime candidates to duplicate some of what Des Moines has done.  Des Moines in home to large operations for Wells Fargo, Principal and other companies.  Attracting similar jobs to SC would be easy in Columbia due to the university /business school and Greenville due to location.  From here, it would be easier to attract other companies.  

[motonenterprises]

[cabelagent]

12 hours ago, CLT_sc said:

Distorted,  thanks for the perspective.  I do live in Charlotte being originally from the upstate. So, yes, it may appear that I am the bad poster.   But, no, I have been reading this board for a short while, primarily in Charlotte forums.  And, since I am from SC, I do have a strong interest in the state.  Charlotte, while growing in all areas, certainly has challenges.  The largest of which is infrastructure and the state’s lack of interest in bringing it up to modern day standards.  

Gvillesc was fairly aggressive in coming after me so I may have come off as  little aggressive.    His comment that Charlotte is good if you are a financial analyst is extremely naive.  So, yes, I defended  the city.

 My references to Charlotte in the thread are only to talk about how the website  should not be using us in an argument to lure residents to the upstate.  I think the arguments made in the website are weak and not compelling.  

Instead, I would have focused more on proximity to the mountains, Main St., and activities that are unique to the upstate.  Simply stating that you are cheaper than larger metros will not resonate with a younger crowd, it is fairly obvious.  And, the salary differences are stronger in the cites mentioned on the website. This is an area that should not have been mentioned at all. The education portion was just poorly written and grossly inaccurate.

In an ideal world,  SC would have a better recruiting push for professional jobs.  Greenville and Columbia would be prime candidates to duplicate some of what Des Moines has done.  Des Moines in home to large operations for Wells Fargo, Principal and other companies.  Attracting similar jobs to SC would be easy in Columbia due to the university /business school and Greenville due to location.  From here, it would be easier to attract other companies.  

Don't  know why...your posts give me a vision  of a gray headed/older middle age man from Charlotte (with spectacles sitting on the end of his nose) writing pious posts for us pions in SC to make us feel envious. Or something in that territory...

Edited April 18, 2019 by cabelagent

[CLT_sc]

1 hour ago, cabelagent said:

Don't  know why...your posts give me a vision  of a gray headed/older middle age man from Charlotte (with spectacles sitting on the end of his nose) writing pious posts for us pions in SC to make us feel envious. Or something in that territory...

Or, I could be a millennial working in real estate backed financing who sees data that is actually based in fact, not The Greenville News’ Elizabeth LaFleur.

And, yes, I like living in Charlotte which has a growing influence in SC.  And, for the remainder of our lives, the influence will  only grow.  

It is interesting that factual information bothers people so much.  To date, not one person has asked about the data and instead attempts to discredit the information by trying to figure out who is writing it.

 The fact that S.C. does not properly fund state schools should make folks who are interested in development alarmed.  The fact that 75% or over $600mm in federal assistance has been provided to less than 2% of the state’s population should be interesting to ask why?  And, has it been productive and the best use of resources?  Or, is Bob Hughes making a fortune by using the credits to build office buildings which are mostly empty.  All good questions to ask.  But, instead, the insecurities of a community take over.

 

[motonenterprises]

Quick everyone! Leave Greenville and go to Charlotte. Seriously though. This does remind me of someone. There is a Charlotte forum.

Edited April 18, 2019 by motonenterprises

[CLT_sc]

15 minutes ago, motonenterprises said:

Quick everyone! Leave Greenville and go to Charlotte. Seriously though. This does remind me of someone. There is a Charlotte forum.

This is a S.C. forum.  Charlotte does have influence in S.C., so it is not out of the question to talk about metro Charlotte in SC.  In fact, most credible economic reviews of SC include Charlotte.

That being said, I mentioned a couple of things.  1, funding for S.C. universities, 2, how one community was able to bring in over $600mm in government subsidies to affect economic development.

Both of those issues affect S.C. and not Charlotte.  Would be interested to see the discussion move in that direction as it does impact S.C.

And, this is a S.C. forum.

[GvilleSC]

How about you provide links and supporting documents to go along with your tirades? That way we can discuss proper ways to remedy the troubles you have with South Carolina, and more specifically it’s upstate region. 

[motonenterprises]

13 minutes ago, CLT_sc said:

This is a S.C. forum.  Charlotte does have influence in S.C., so it is not out of the question to talk about metro Charlotte in SC.  In fact, most credible economic reviews of SC include Charlotte.

That being said, I mentioned a couple of things.  1, funding for S.C. universities, 2, how one community was able to bring in over $600mm in government subsidies to affect economic development.

Both of those issues affect S.C. and not Charlotte.  Would be interested to see the discussion move in that direction as it does impact S.C.

And, this is a S.C. forum.

Sounds like a post to tear Greenville and upstate down to me. You can't compare these cities fairly. They're different sizes. Much like you can't compare Charlotte to New York. Our cities are doing fine for their sizes and we choose to live in them. You choose to live in Charlotte. That's fine, but it isn't right to come in here and try to tear our area down. You aren't better than us because you live in Charlotte. My last post on it. 

[CLT_sc]

4 minutes ago, GvilleSC said:

How about you provide links and supporting documents to go along with your tirades? That way we can discuss proper ways to remedy the troubles you have with South Carolina, and more specifically it’s upstate region. 

Funding for schools can easily be found by reviewing financial statements of each school. There is a line item in the revenue section usually called state contribution.  Easy to get and would take you 15 minutes.

For government assistance, quick google search of new market tax credits awarded in South Carolina.  Since 2000, Greenville has taken in over $600mm to supplement projects such a One.  In fact, there is a small company at Next who promotes this type of financing.

Metro growth stats are easily found on US census website.  New numbers are just out, since 2015, Spartanburg has been doing very well.

Honestly, I am surprised at the lack of knowledge/care for people who are supposedly interested in growing S.C.  Funding research universities at such low levels in no way helps recruit professional companies to S.C.  

[GvilleSC]

2 minutes ago, CLT_sc said:

Funding for schools can easily be found by reviewing financial statements of each school. There is a line item in the revenue section usually called state contribution.  Easy to get and would take you 15 minutes.

For government assistance, quick google search of new market tax credits awarded in South Carolina.  Since 2000, Greenville has taken in over $600mm to supplement projects such a One.  In fact, there is a small company at Next who promotes this type of financing.

Metro growth stats are easily found on US census website.  New numbers are just out, since 2015, Spartanburg has been doing very well.

Honestly, I am surprised at the lack of knowledge/care for people who are supposedly interested in growing S.C.  Funding research universities at such low levels in no way helps recruit professional companies to S.C.  

You clearly work in a very different field than I do. Nobody ever shows up to a discussion *hoping* that everyone else has run across the same numbers. If you actually cared or desired a productive talk, you'd provide your statistics and allow everyone to view your numbers. The interwebs are a big place, and duplicate, partial, or contrasting data can be found. Why not just provide your source? Oh, wait...

[CLT_sc]

1 minute ago, motonenterprises said:

Sounds like a post to tear Greenville and upstate down to me. You can't compare these cities fairly. They're different sizes. Much like you can't compare Charlotte to New York. Our cities are doing fine for their sizes and we choose to live in them. You choose to live in Charlotte. That's fine, but it isn't right to come in here and try to tear our area down. You aren't better than us because you live in Charlotte. My last post on it. 

Thanks, you said exactly what I said earlier.  The website promoting upstate S.C. mentions Charlotte, Nashville, Atlanta and Austin.  

I started this thread by saying that should not be done, it makes no sense.

gvillesc then started getting defensive about Charlotte being a city full of financial analyst.  

But, I absolutely agree, the upstate website should never have mentioned Charlotte.  In fact, it also compares Greenville with NYC, that is not smart at all.  The entire website is amateur work And should be taken down to get it right.

[CLT_sc]

1 minute ago, GvilleSC said:

You clearly work in a very different field than I do. Nobody ever shows up to a discussion *hoping* that everyone else has run across the same numbers. If you actually cared or desired a productive talk, you'd provide your statistics and allow everyone to view your numbers. The interwebs are a big place, and duplicate, partial, or contrasting data can be found. Why not just provide your source? Oh, wait...

Ok, I’ll give you links to the financials of every major university.  Because if I compile them and summarize them in here, you won’t believe me.  If Elizabeth LaFleur publishes them, I am sure you will buy in.

I am not  hoping that people know. But, for people who care enough about development to talk about it, yes, I would expect that folks care enough to at least ask a question and try to understand.  Maybe that is too much to ask.

Do you really think people are beating the doors down in Greenville to finance more office space for a small market with 15% availability without some sort of subsidy?  The logic in that just does not make sense.

[motonenterprises]

3 hours ago, CLT_sc said:

Thanks, you said exactly what I said earlier.  The website promoting upstate S.C. mentions Charlotte, Nashville, Atlanta and Austin.  

I started this thread by saying that should not be done, it makes no sense.

gvillesc then started getting defensive about Charlotte being a city full of financial analyst.  

But, I absolutely agree, the upstate website should never have mentioned Charlotte.  In fact, it also compares Greenville with NYC, that is not smart at all.  The entire website is amateur work And should be taken down to get it right.

Who cares? It's not hurting us. Why do you care and live in Charlotte?

3 hours ago, CLT_sc said:

Ok, I’ll give you links to the financials of every major university.  Because if I compile them and summarize them in here, you won’t believe me.  If Elizabeth LaFleur publishes them, I am sure you will buy in.

I am not  hoping that people know. But, for people who care enough about development to talk about it, yes, I would expect that folks care enough to at least ask a question and try to understand.  Maybe that is too much to ask.

Do you really think people are beating the doors down in Greenville to finance more office space for a small market with 15% availability without some sort of subsidy?  The logic in that just does not make sense.

Again. Why do you care living in Charlotte? Do you plan on moving to our area? If not you shouldn't care.

[Spartan]

I'm closing this thread. I hope it's obvious why.