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New Arena


carolinaboy

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Don’t worry guys, I’m fighting the Richmond Arena deal tooth and nail. Pretty pictures are great, but the financing scheme is a net loss and significant risk to Richmond taxpayers. I take issue with the lofty, unrealistic attendance and revenue projections, the fact that Richmond alone has to foot the bill (even though surrounding counties benefit), and the project costs have been incorrectly calculated at the most rudimentary level, despite Richmond hiring a “wealth management” company to review the finances. 

Don’t worry, when this fails, some corporate entity will swoop back into Norfolk proclaiming its own saving grace project that Norfolk taxpayers will be on the hook for.

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On 6/23/2019 at 7:06 PM, urbanlife said:

If only there was some sort of rail line that connected the two where someone could ride from downtown Norfolk and hop off at the Convention Center in VB....I can't put my finger on it what could work, but some sort of people mover.

  bus rapid transit.

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On 8/23/2019 at 5:25 AM, Virginia City said:

No one cares about buses. Plus they are just as susceptible to traffic and pollution as just driving yourself.

BRT when done like how it is supposed to be designed doesn't run in traffic, and buses can easily be electric. Light rail is better for moving a lot of people over a distance, but in places that have light density, BRT could work well.

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I know HR is hardly alone, but the bus here has a stigma of being for poor people or only for people from the projects, whereas if marketed correctly, it could work as a system to navigate a sprawling metro. I dunno what HRT offers, but there should be regular buses (I’m talking every half hour) between this area’s hot spots. Base->Ghent->Downtown->Town Center->The Strip. Then offer another bus that goes to Greenbrier, another to the airport, another to the Peninsula, along with standard routes. 

I still want BRT and light rail expansion, but there should be one main route that simply goes to the five places I mentioned. As more and more people rely on Lyft or Uber, HRT should take advantage with more routes. 

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7 hours ago, BFG said:

I know HR is hardly alone, but the bus here has a stigma of being for poor people or only for people from the projects, whereas if marketed correctly, it could work as a system to navigate a sprawling metro. I dunno what HRT offers, but there should be regular buses (I’m talking every half hour) between this area’s hot spots. Base->Ghent->Downtown->Town Center->The Strip. Then offer another bus that goes to Greenbrier, another to the airport, another to the Peninsula, along with standard routes. 

I still want BRT and light rail expansion, but there should be one main route that simply goes to the five places I mentioned. As more and more people rely on Lyft or Uber, HRT should take advantage with more routes. 

I think you're right on the stigma and the lack of direct routes. Time is a major factor. Until it saves considerable time on a commute, people would rather be alone in their cars or grab an Uber.

Edited by BeagleAccountant
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On 8/27/2019 at 9:07 AM, Norfolk757Kid said:

And a dedicated rail lane with its own right of way, not Bus Rapid Transit that is just as likely to get stuck in traffic as a single car, is the best alternative. That or a ferry for cars.  BRT is a cop out to me. 

Actual BRT doesn't get stuck in single car traffic, it runs on its own right of way system. It is much more like light rail but without the tracks or light rail cars.

Bus Rapid Transit example

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13 hours ago, urbanlife said:

Actual BRT doesn't get stuck in single car traffic, it runs on its own right of way system. It is much more like light rail but without the tracks or light rail cars.

Bus Rapid Transit example

Yeah ideally, but the way BRT actually gets implemented is usually a hybrid of dedicated right of ways and mixing in with traffic.  In Indianapolis 60% of their new BRT network will be dedicated lanes https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/07/11/the-bus-network-redesign-in-indianapolis-will-be-like-launching-a-brand-new-transit-system/. Richmond's new BRT has its own dedicated lane for much of Broad Street but still has to mix in with traffic at certain points and so can still get stuck at traffic lights etc. Same thing with how the Tide is very efficient from Newtown to Norfolk State, then becomes more of a slow moving streetcar through downtown.  Some say BRT is more flexible because of this, since at the end of the day it's not beholden to one route and can follow development patterns. I think BRT is a solid way to move people and can be especially useful in HR, but as a supplement to a larger rail network that links the cities, airports, bases and beaches. 

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In Richmond, it was such a cheaper alternative to get faster transit without the investment of rail. Buses arrive at the stations at 10-15 minute intervals and the systems functions much like light rail (loading platforms, stations, pass kiosks, etc). They upgraded all of the traffic signaling along the route to prioritize for the buses which reduces delays caused by traffic. So far so good and rider ship is well above the projections. 

It really can be a good way to expand better transit faster without the heavy costs of light rail. 

It also spurred higher density zoning and height along the route, which has resulted in new TOD near stations. Could be a good tool for HR. 

Edited by wrldcoupe4
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Spitballing here.

I believe Hampton Blvd. is out of the question for any expansion, but I wonder if a BRT route from either Monticello Ave., Tidewater Dr., Newtown Rd., or Military Hwy. to the base could be done? The latter two options allow for an ORF stop, which of course has to go with any transit expansion.

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  • 2 weeks later...

No, I'm not saying that I have any specific information that would lead to a rock solid conclusion that it will never happen.

What I am saying:

1) Norfolk is broke.  There is no rainy day fun.  There is no cash reserve.   Debt service payments will skyrocket.

2) Norfolk will not borrow and threaten its bond rating.

3) If private monies (from investors and banks) of a sufficient amount so as to get it done did not readily flow into a Virginia Beach project, they would certainly not do so in a Norfolk project.   

4)  Norfolk has way too many priorities ahead of an arena, no matter what Kenny says about his pet project. I have it on excellent account from several Councilpersons that this ("new") Council is clearly prioritizing flooding/sea level rise, schools and neighborhoods over pricey public projects...for the foreseeable future.  Really, that's more of an open secret.  Now if some group came in and wanted to pay for the arena themselves, I'm sure Norfolk would listen. But again, I don't think any such group will appear because they would not be able to get the financing. I'm sure Kenny is praying for a miracle here. Just like he did with Nordstrom and NS. ;)

 

 

 

 

Edited by baobabs727
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I wouldn’t be surprised if the Pamunkey tribe throws in funding for this project. Only thing is I doubt there’s enough land near Harbor Park and I’m not sure what other land they own in Norfolk. 

Knowing that he was one of the people involved with the VB arena project not selected by the city, I could also see Bruce Thompson getting involved. 

There's also the factor of funding. If the region backs this with a hospitality or sales tax increase (say 1%), it may have a chance. Of course residents will complain, but if no property taxes are raised, I see no problem. That's going to be the hurdle...it needs to be treated as the region's arena, not just Norfolk's.

Edited by BFG
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  • 3 weeks later...

https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-business/vp-ib-raleigh-folo-1007-20191003-q3ca47hyevaj5jdsrf6umm5pf4-story.html

This is from an article about the Chamber’s trip to Raleigh-Durham. If Norfolk can get a few other cities on board with a hotel and rental car tax to help with the arena, a lot can happen. This is more than just a Norfolk arena. 

A4017F4E-6414-4091-AFF7-E315A00187BA.png

Edited by BFG
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  • 3 weeks later...

Rep. Thelma Drake spoke very briefly about the arena proposal at tonight's Work Session meeting, and basically said they're still working on details behind-the-scenes. Looking at that last bullet point, it looks like funding would come from bonds and sales tax revenues. Ms. Drake also alluded to city and regional partners retaining "certain Commonwealth revenues". 

Screen Shot 2019-10-23 at 1.36.43 AM.png

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  • 2 months later...

I feel that a lot of people seem to agree that Military Circle is the best choice for the arena if this happens. It's at the crossroads of 64/264, it will most definitely spur light rail north on Military Highway, it would revitalize that section of Military Highway between 264 and Virginia Beach Blvd. It's just a smart place to build it.

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On 1/11/2020 at 2:52 PM, zeppelin14 said:

I feel that a lot of people seem to agree that Military Circle is the best choice for the arena if this happens. It's at the crossroads of 64/264, it will most definitely spur light rail north on Military Highway, it would revitalize that section of Military Highway between 264 and Virginia Beach Blvd. It's just a smart place to build it.

That would be a good site for an arena that would benefit the most people. Hopefully if one is built, it wouldn't be modeled after an arena with a sea of parking around it.

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