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Carroll South of the Ballpark (Greensboro)


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According to the News and Record, Carroll plans a 20 story office tower, with a 9 or 10 story Aloft Hotel. It will include residential, street level retail and possibly a grocery store. A large confer

Just wanted to say Thank you so much @cityboi for the tremendous effort and thought you put into the GSO threads.  Greensboro, Winston-Salem, High Point, the Triad & the State of North Carolina -

The hotel had quite few people at the pool on the upper deck.  Apartments look good.  sorry this was all Carroll at Bellemeade not the other project with parking garage and Westin.   

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1 hour ago, RichardC said:

Looks bland and unthoughtful.  Greensboro’s idea of architecture is certainly not setting any bar....from mediocre to worse.

I have to disagree. I think some people think just because developments don't have stellar designs they are terrible. I agree it won't win architecture awards but I think the architecture is pretty decent. Better than whats being going up in recent years and better than the monster size tower Carroll first proposed which most people thought was an utter mess. But I have to say this... The envy over on wstb is unreal calling this a "horrid" development and "architecture in Greensboro sucks".  Its like when an older brother gets something nicer and bigger, the younger sibling gets jealous. They don't realize it but when people act like that it makes them look bad. The envy war between Greensboro and Winston-Salem needs to stop. Its childish and we need to understand that two or should I say three prosperous Triad cities makes a more prosperous Triad region. When companies move to either Greensboro or Winston-Salem, they don't look at city limits. They look at a regional job pool. 

This is pretty darn nice and is a step in the right direction. But quite frankly there is nothing going up in Greensboro or Winston-Salem that has a jaw dropping design and both cities have lack luster downtown development going up as with most cities.

The glass tower is simple but sloping top and bar on the side gives it an interesting look. Hardly horrid. I love the color tone of the residential in contrast with the glass tower and the gray toned Aloft. The brown base of the tower is angled out a little.

I'm glad Greensboro is finally moving away from red or brown brick retro apartment complexes downtown.

This reminds me of a taller version of the 555 Magnum / Van Allen project going up by the Durham Bulls Athletic Park. However Carroll's project includes a hotel, conference center and grocery store.

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Your excitement and enthusiasm for what’s going on there is palatable and understandable, since you live there and post here and on other sites nonstop.  But some of us have seen and are exposed to developments that are much more interesting and stimulating to the common eye.  This design does very little to show any real design skill.  And I dare say anyone in Winston-Salem is envious.  After all, that city has the best and most comprehensive examples of architecture in the state!  How do you contend with two works by Ceasr Pelli,  the forerunner of the Empire State Building by the same architects, a Robert A M Stern, a Robert Venturi, a church by Ralph Adams Cram, and numerous works by Charles Barton Keen?  I’m sure there are many more...  Not to mention all the authentic architecture of Old Salem.

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11 minutes ago, RichardC said:

Your excitement and enthusiasm for what’s going on there is palatable and understandable, since you live there and post here and on other sites nonstop.  But some of us have seen and are exposed to developments that are much more interesting and stimulating to the common eye.  This design does very little to show any real design skill.  And I dare say anyone in Winston-Salem is envious.  After all, that city has the best most comprehensive examples of architecture in the state!  How do you contend with two works by Ceasr Pelli,  the forerunner of the Empire State Building by the same architects, a Robert A M Stern, a Robert Venturi, a church by Ralph Adams Cram, and numerous works by Charles Barton Keen?  I’m sure there are many more...  Not to mention all the authentic architecture of Old Salem.

There will always be more inspiring designs. But there is nothing terrible about this design. Its a great improvement from Carroll's first tower design. Again I see nothing in "recent" history that is mind blowing and inspiring going up in Greensboro or Winston-Salem. In fact most urban designs across the state are pretty generic including in Charlotte and Raleigh. In fact I read people over in Winston-Salem talking about lack luster designs over there like with the Hampton Inn and Forsyth County Courthouse for example.

But envy shows when someone point blanks attack a city in the kind of tone that came from this person. I constantly read people saying why can't Winston-Salem build anything over 6 stories downtown today. Carroll proposes a 15 to 20 story tower in downtown Greensboro  and Greensboro gets nailed by those folks. While the design is not really impressive anyone can look at it and see its a decent design and not terrible as some make it out to be. Every development is not going to be jaw dropping. You won't see that in any city.

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Don’t mistake “envy” with outright apathy or for the fact that most people might not care for what’s going in your town like you do.  I happen to live in Charlotte, and it has left every other city between Atlanta and and New York with skid marks in the dust when it comes to “towers” and impressive development.

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33 minutes ago, RichardC said:

Don’t mistake “envy” with outright apathy or for the fact that most people might not care for what’s going in your town like you do.  I happen to live in Charlotte, and it has left every other city between Atlanta and and New York with skid marks in the dust when it comes to “towers” and impressive development.

If some of these people don't care then why do they make the kind of remarks that they make? The hatred of Greensboro is so strong, they post on thier own Winston-Salem forum and have abandoned all Triad forums. I've never seen anything like it.  Its like when a child gets mad and takes their ball and go home. That reeks envy. You dont see this in the Triangle forum or Greenville-Spartanburg forums. There is no reason to have that kind of hatred towards a neighboring city. There are some that won't even say Greensboro. They say "the city east of Colfax". Again this is a great project for Greensboro just like there are great projects going up in Winston-Salem. Why can't we just be happy for one another? Yes we can pick at projects left and right in a constructive manner but to come out and say "architecture in Greensboro sucks" and over exaggerate a development's "blandness" with that kind of attitude, no wonder the Triad has difficulty attracting jobs because we fight each other and don't work together. If we put the same amount of energy lifting each other up as we do tearing each other down, we would be much further along as a region and as individual cities. Ironically the person who said architecture in Greensboro sucks doesn't like the architecture of a development going up there but you won't see him say architecture in Winston-Salem sucks.

Carroll South of the Ballpark is a "good" design. Even the News and Record in Greensboro who harshly criticized the first tower design is on board with this one.

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Grow up, and don’t get your feelings hurt so easily.  I’m sure you Greensboro people give up about as much recognition to Winston-Salem and it’s people as you get back.  There is nothing wrong with criticism.  You seem to be on here so much that you feel the amazing necessity to respond to every quibble, when everyone else has way more to do in their lives than sit on an anonymous forum and spar with anonymous experts.  I mean really....look at the numbers, 7713 posts.....is this really what you live for??

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12 minutes ago, RichardC said:

Grow up, and don’t get your feelings hurt so easily.  I’m sure you Greensboro people give up about as much recognition to Winston-Salem and it’s people as you get back.  There is nothing wrong with criticism.  You seem to be on here so much that you feel the amazing necessity to respond to every quibble, when everyone else has way more to do in their lives than sit on an anonymous forum and spar with anonymous experts.  

No just the opposite with those folks. My feelings aren't hurt at all. But it's funny every time something really positive happens in Greensboro, that's when you see the negativity from certain folks. Its as clear as day and everyone sees it for what it is. I get PMs all the time from people who agree with me. There is difference between criticism and hatred/envy/ugliness.

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4 minutes ago, RichardC said:

Thank you. You just verified my point with your last statement.  Everyone one here can read between all your posts.

What point? I think you'll find that there are more people that like the design than dislike it.  People can be critical of a development without attacking the city.

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Ok...everyone to their corners. Please. 

 

Let's get back on topic with this project. While it's design is nothing "special," we have to be reminded that design currently takes a back seat to economics and profitability these days. It's why most residential projects all look the same: they need to be made profitable from the get go. We should be applauding this project for combining three uses into one site. You don't see that a lot, especially for a city Greensboro's size. 

Again, I am still having a hard time with the hotel portion. I just feel like it needs something to set it apart from the massiveness of the design. But I am not going to gripe about it. I do hope this gets some office interest. 

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4 hours ago, cityboi said:

Let's agree to disagree;)

Classic Passive Aggressive Boi Behavior. You could have taken that position several posts back. RichardC gave a personal opinion regarding the aesthetics of the Carrroll SOB project. You offered a different point of view. Check/CheckMate. Yet you could not pass up the opportunity to disparage/denigrate bloggers from Winston-Salem from a totally different forum that's not even a part of this dialogue.  This project has not even been a topic of discussion there.  Someone WHO LIVES IN CHARLOTTE  referenced this project in a post of a different topic.  You apparently have been a pretty busy Peeping Tom  over there. You chose to use that one off comment to yet again further perpetuate this False Narrative of your own creation that bloggers from Winston have this overarching "Hatred" and "Envy" of GSO which is ridiculous.   Long time observers of Urban Planet as well as City Data have experienced your history of transference, gaslighting & expertly playing the victim.   You among all the posters on these sites seem to have the most issues with a good number of other posters.  At some point I believe most people would take a moment or two of self reflection to ponder why that is. But not you.

With regards to the Carroll SOB,  it has the earmarks of a good project. I agree the tower portion of this iteration is much improved over the previous tower although if the tower remains at 180,000 square feet @ 20 stories, that going to be a pretty thin 9,000 sq. ft. per floor plate.  Love the ground floor retail.

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43 minutes ago, zalo said:

Classic Passive Aggressive Boi Behavior. You could have taken that position several posts back. RichardC gave a personal opinion regarding the aesthetics of the Carrroll SOB project. You offered a different point of view. Check/CheckMate. Yet you could not pass up the opportunity to disparage/denigrate bloggers from Winston-Salem from a totally different forum that's not even a part of this dialogue.  This project has not even been a topic of discussion there.  Someone WHO LIVES IN CHARLOTTE  referenced this project in a post of a different topic.  You apparently have been a pretty busy Peeping Tom  over there. You chose to use that one off comment to yet again further perpetuate this False Narrative of your own creation that bloggers from Winston have this overarching "Hatred" and "Envy" of GSO which is ridiculous.   Long time observers of Urban Planet as well as City Data have experienced your history of transference, gaslighting & expertly playing the victim.   You among all the posters on these sites seem to have the most issues with a good number of other posters.  At some point I believe most people would take a moment or two of self reflection to ponder why that is. But not you.

With regards to the Carroll SOB,  it has the earmarks of a good project. I agree the tower portion of this iteration is much improved over the previous tower although if the tower remains at 180,000 square feet @ 20 stories, that going to be a pretty thin 9,000 sq. ft. per floor plate.  Love the ground floor retail.

 

There are more people that agree with me than you think. I get PMs from them.  They don't publicly post what they think because they don't want to get wrapped up into the drama. Interestingly it seems that for the most part Winston-Salem posters have a problem with my posts and for what? I don't attack them or their city. So its puzzling to me.

The point of the matter is that this is a good project for the city despite the fact the design may not be the best of the best. But to say it looks horrid and architecture sucks in Greensboro takes it a bit too far and the tone was a more personal reaction to Greensboro in general. Nothing wrong with anyone saying it looks bland. That's a personal opinion which is why I had no issue with what Richard said in his assessment of it even though I disagree. I was just addressing the negative reaction in general not from him.

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1 hour ago, Rufus said:

Let's get back on topic with this project. While it's design is nothing "special," we have to be reminded that design currently takes a back seat to economics and profitability these days. It's why most residential projects all look the same: they need to be made profitable from the get go. We should be applauding this project for combining three uses into one site. You don't see that a lot, especially for a city Greensboro's size. 

Again, trying to stay on topic...

Looking around, bland architecture on projects like this is hardly unique to Greensboro. But in the end, I don't think it matters that much. The two most important things this project can do are 1) activate the street, and 2) concentrate more people downtown (residents as well as hotel/office users). To that end, the renderings are promising. If the street level is a success, then this project will be a success to me. Downtown has one great pedestrian street (Elm Street), but the rest is pretty bad for pedestrians except for small isolated pockets. This project should help to expand that pedestrian district.

Also, we've talked about how the ballpark-area projects make the area between the ballpark and Elm Street more attractive for additional development. I know Elon University owns a lot of property around Greene and Commerce Streets. Does anyone know what their long-term plans are for the area? 

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2 hours ago, jthomas said:

Again, trying to stay on topic...

Looking around, bland architecture on projects like this is hardly unique to Greensboro. But in the end, I don't think it matters that much. The two most important things this project can do are 1) activate the street, and 2) concentrate more people downtown (residents as well as hotel/office users). To that end, the renderings are promising. If the street level is a success, then this project will be a success to me. Downtown has one great pedestrian street (Elm Street), but the rest is pretty bad for pedestrians except for small isolated pockets. This project should help to expand that pedestrian district.

Also, we've talked about how the ballpark-area projects make the area between the ballpark and Elm Street more attractive for additional development. I know Elon University owns a lot of property around Greene and Commerce Streets. Does anyone know what their long-term plans are for the area? 

Elon owns property east of Commerce Pl. along Greene Street. However the Greensboro Merchants Association owns the land bound by Eugene, Bellemeade and Commerce. They have said they'd be willing to sell which extends development towards Elm Street. Downtown Greensboro Inc. Would like there to be more of a pedestrian connection between the ballpark and the performing arts center along Bellemeade. As for Elon, they'll likely hold on to those buildings.

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5 hours ago, cityboi said:

 

There are more people that agree with me than you think. I get PMs from them.  They don't publicly post what they think because they don't want to get wrapped up into the drama. Interestingly it seems that for the most part Winston-Salem posters have a problem with my posts and for what? I don't attack them or their city. So its puzzling to me.

The point of the matter is that this is a good project for the city despite the fact the design may not be the best of the best. But to say it looks horrid and architecture sucks in Greensboro takes it a bit too far and the tone was a more personal reaction to Greensboro in general. Nothing wrong with anyone saying it looks bland. That's a personal opinion which is why I had no issue with what Richard said in his assessment of it even though I disagree. I was just addressing the negative reaction in general not from him.

Now is the first time I have had the opportunity to respond to this post that you have  revised numerous times from your original comment, which again long time posters to this space as well as City Data will be all too familiar with.   I can assure you that I too have had quite a few PMs from people over the years that don't agree with you and also don't want to get caught up in your manufactured drama .  For the record, there have been plenty of posters from places other than Winston that have publicly called out your behavior, Raleigh, Charlotte & even Wash. DC  posters come to mind.  So the questioning of the motives behind your supposedly "innocuous" comments have been pointed out from across the land. 

The actual true point of the matter is there was no general negative reaction in this thread other than you took a statement from another site that was never written on Urban Planet; a statement that I myself found a bit too strong and inserted in this thread in order to purposely resurrect a feud of your own making that dissipated quite sometime ago to once again passive aggressively take a swing at people that you harbor a grudge that are not participants on this site.  It's unfortunate. I've seen snarky comments between RDU & Charlotte posters regarding the oneupsmanship of their respective cities and have noticed that no one seems to take as thin skinned a reaction as you tend to do.  It is indeed puzzling and you should just try harder to leave the your perceived slights out of the public domain.  

My recommendation is that you should rest in the comfort that there are many great things happening in your favorite Triad downtown and there will be more to come. God Bless!

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9 hours ago, urbanpirate said:

Can we get yet another rendering of this project posted ??  I'm having a tough time visualizing what it looks like.  :stop:

One thing to mention, its totally possible Carroll could tweak the design. He did that with Carroll at Bellemeade. It was first proposed as Bellemeade Village and while the building layouts were the same, he totally changed the design and it looked even better. So who knows what Carroll might do in the case of Carroll South of the Ballpark which like Carroll at Bellemeade he even hinted changing the name.

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3 hours ago, QCxpat said:

Just wanted to say Thank you so much @cityboi for the tremendous effort and thought you put into the GSO threads.  Greensboro, Winston-Salem, High Point, the Triad & the State of North Carolina - all are better because of your enthusiasm and devotion to the development of the Piedmont Triad.  Thanks again!

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Appreciate it :)

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Wasn't that long ago but many have forgotten what use to be in place of the ballpark. The old art deco Burlington Industries headquarters which later became the Department of Social Services. Lindsay Street went through center field.

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Ballpark before the development 

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After development 

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When Carroll South of the Ballpark is complete, that's going to be a long wall of midrise apartments and high-rise buildings along Eugene Street.

Total ballpark development after the completion of Carroll South of the Ballpark.

Collectively over 1,000 apartments in four complexes, two hotels, conference center, two office towers, restaurants, retail, two breweries and two grocery stores  (Deep Roots Market & grocery store in Carroll's project)

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This is just the beginning....more to come!

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