Charlotte Pipe &Foundry redevelopment

[deleted account]

4 hours ago, HopHead said:

Whoa wait a second... So this new entertainment complex has an amphitheater as a part of the plans? As in something on the scale of PNC Pavillion? I would love to never have to make the trek up to north Charlotte to see a band again. 

Tepper wants to host the NFL draft (one reason for the amphitheatre probably)...

[CLT Development]

2 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

IMO, Charlotte already has an “entertainment district” type development and it is called Epicenter. 
 

It had a bowling alley, Movie theatre, plenty of night places, there was a clothing store, it’s connected to Light Rail, Bus hub, Streetcar stop, over street mall, in the heart of the city beside an NBA arena that hosted the Charlotte checkers (but I think they moved to the chicken coop on Independence).

A further expansion could be done towards CTC redevelopment but the site itself has plenty of opportunity. 
 

If an “entertainment district” isn’t working out at the epicenter, it’s hard to imagine one beside a football stadium at the pipe land would be more lovely or vibrant? I’m very skeptical of football/sports entertainment district developments. The current location is nice. So long as the developments around the current stadium have solid ground level activation, it’s already in a place with better “entertainment district” opportunity anyway. Romare Park, Latta, Ink & Ivy, allegedly we are told the Legscy Union project won’t be complete doo doo, roof top bars in the area. Etc. 

What happened at Epicenter is a LOT more complicated than "If an “entertainment district” isn’t working out at the epicenter." Come to a UP meet up and I'll explain everything.

[Madison Parkitect]

Come on, we are not bringing the Epicenter into a legitimate discussion about a multi-block entertainment district based around a new stadium.

[HopHead]

1 hour ago, JBS said:

Tepper wants to host the NFL draft (one reason for the amphitheatre probably)...

Yea, I'm aware he (and the city) want the NFL draft. First time I heard amphitheater mentioned though... Would be curious about the scale of it since the NC Music Factory already has a 5k capacity one right up the road. I selfishly want a 20k one down this way instead of having to go up to PNC Pavilion lol

[jednc]

From Twitter:

BREAKING: Rock Hill Mayor confirms no more payments to @Panthers. “Rock Hill’s identity is championship football,” the mayor said. “I told that billionaire with his hand out that losing might be acceptable in Charlotte, but not in Football City, USA. No playoffs? No payments.”

1 minute ago, jednc said:

From Twitter:

BREAKING: Rock Hill Mayor confirms no more payments to @Panthers. “Rock Hill’s identity is championship football,” the mayor said. “I told that billionaire with his hand out that losing might be acceptable in Charlotte, but not in Football City, USA. No playoffs? No payments.”

It went on to say...

Speaking from an impromptu press conference at District 3 Stadium: “The good people of Rock Hill and York County will not have their football brand tarnished. I simply told Mr. Tepper that when he finds a QB, we might find our checkbook. It’s that simple.”

2 minutes ago, jednc said:

From Twitter:

BREAKING: Rock Hill Mayor confirms no more payments to @Panthers. “Rock Hill’s identity is championship football,” the mayor said. “I told that billionaire with his hand out that losing might be acceptable in Charlotte, but not in Football City, USA. No playoffs? No payments.”

It went on to say...

Speaking from an impromptu press conference at District 3 Stadium: “The good people of Rock Hill and York County will not have their football brand tarnished. I simply told Mr. Tepper that when he finds a QB, we might find our checkbook. It’s that simple.”

The posts are satire, but laugh out loud funny.

[JRCLT]

My jaw dropped lol.

Yea, I'm aware he (and the city) want the NFL draft. First time I heard amphitheater mentioned though... Would be curious about the scale of it since the NC Music Factory already has a 5k capacity one right up the road. I selfishly want a 20k one down this way instead of having to go up to PNC Pavilion lol

Should be around uptown to be honest. It would be central and easily accessible from the metro area.

[CLT Development]

17 hours ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Come on, we are not bringing the Epicenter into a legitimate discussion about a multi-block entertainment district based around a new stadium.

One was a retail complex created by a man with, honestly, not that much backing, connections or experience. It was designed for 50/50 soft goods to food and beverage to entertainment mix, but accepted like 90% entertainment, no questions asked, just accepted anyone. The Epicenter was not designed for its final tenant mix, as it faces completely inward, and literally funnels people into a bottleneck. Also, it has never been up to snuff, never delivered on its promises, and has a been in a constant state of 'falling apart' since it opened, and through the many times it changed hands in bankruptcy court. 

One would be an entertainment complex in 3rd Ward backed by a man now worth $16B who can just hire connections and experience, if he doesn't have them. It will be largely street facing, with a mix of uses above and around,  and anchored by two destinations on either side of it. He will be able to hire an international entertainment operator to fill the spaces.  Will it be organic or perfect, definitely not, but it has a better shot than Epicenter of old, which will thankfully soon be getting a new owner, and a new mix that'll work way better for its layout.

Edited March 9, 2022 by CLT Development

[15895]

I didn’t particularly want to respond to a person who has it in their mind I need things that I already know about explained to me because I thought it would be beating a dead horse and derail the thread & not add much to the conversation. 
 

My point to epicenter wasn’t the specific epicenter complex itself. It was leveraging assets or focusing on areas of the city that have a lot going for it. 
 

Specific to the epicenter site;

- Major Light rail Stop

- Gold Line stop 

- Transportation hub

- Proximity to 100,000 workers connected to overstreet mall.

- Proximity to NBA arena, Convention center, libraries, Tryon street, museums, Trade/Tryon Sq., theatres, hotels. 

The Pipe & Foundry entertainment district can be the shiniest multi-billion dollar football stadium. It can’t match uptown East of stonewall. The new entertainment district couldn’t draw crowds like the epicenter below on Thursday’s could. The majority of Office workers aren’t going to walk or drive over there for beers after work. SouthEnd is along the blue line - it would make more sense to drive to your office and after work take the blue line to SouthEnd and then back to your parking garage to drive home than schlep to Pipe during rush hour. 

 

I’d like to see an “entertainment District” throughout uptown. Say along Trade Street between Stonewall & Caldwell with spillage along Tryon, College, Church, Brevard  and stonewall. 
 

This also comes down to a difference in some people who are  satisfied with literally anything built and that’s fine with them. Context doesn’t matter so long as it’s a building. And then there are those who think things such as bike lanes, larger crosswalks, mass transit, subsidies for grocery stores, parks, affordable housing etc all together create a great city, community & urban environment and that doesn’t have to come at the expense of new development. It’s not either or….

I personally wouldn’t mind the stadium at the pipeland but I think it’s disillusioned to think it would be an “entertainment district” & fantasizing about a light rail decades away. And it’s frustrating when we have areas around uptown that could thrive with more public investments.   

I’d personally like to see a new public high school and some recreation fields as part of a new NFL stadium development at the pipe & foundry land . Affordable housing, grocery store. Expand Irwin Creek greenway, etc. i think it’s important to integrate more families into the city center and to be a well rounded and diverse community. 
 

At a fraction of the subsidies for the pipeland, assuming the city is contributing money, what all could we do for the rest of uptown. Could the city intervene in the epicenter? Could the city start pilot programs for small businesses in these unused low rise buildings in uptown? Could the city help the owners of parking garages convert bottom levels to retail? Could the city subsidize over street mall businesses? Etc etc. I’m not against subsidies to the stadium, I just think an “entertainment district” isn't worth investing effort in over other priorities. 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[CLT Development]

3 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I didn’t particularly want to respond to a person who has it in their mind I need things that I already know about explained to me because I thought it would be beating a dead horse and derail the thread & not add much to the conversation. 

Super unnecessary hostility. 

And everything you say above is correct, but as I noted a few posts back, there will be millions of square feet of development focused around this entertainment district. Yes I agree there should be more public investment elsewhere, and that will definitely happen. This is why I said come to the next meet up and I'll explain everything, because there are many things I cannot say on this public forum. Speaking that I had dinner with one of the most well known developers in this city last night, and he had some questions about things posted on here, because he lurks.

Edited March 9, 2022 by CLT Development

[RANYC]

You both make great points. 

I like the idea of a well-rounded uptown, distinct from other parts of the city in its hyper-pedestrian-orientation, and viewed as a perfectly suitable place for starting and raising families.

I also don't think the epicenter is designed appropriately for partying and revelry, or spot-hopping or strolling.  In my personal opinion, I'd rather see crowds strolling the sidewalks from venue to venue or having food and drinks in outdoor patios along the streetscape, than clustering/trapped in the bottom of a bowl pit, which is what appears to be happening in the epicenter picture above.  But you're right that the Epicenter is closer to people and transit right now, whereas Pipe & Foundry is in a relative no-man's land for transit and pedestrian-accessibility.    Also agree that so-called public-private partnerships going forward need to be "inclusive," i.e. affordable housing.  Lots of the jobs at these stadium venues and in an entertainment district will be relatively low-wage service jobs, and since this massive project will be partially tax-payer funded, then incorporating some amount of housing within walking distance that these service workers can actually afford should be a priority. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by RANYC

[slipperypete]

57 minutes ago, CLT Development said:

Speaking that I had dinner with one of the most well known developers in this city last night, and he had some questions about things posted on here, because he lurks.

Tell him to fix that eyesore of a derelict parking garage next time you see him.  Oh, wait, you said developer. Must be a different guy. 

[eastsider]

On 3/8/2022 at 2:54 PM, JBS said:

Tepper wants to host the NFL draft (one reason for the amphitheatre probably)...

An amphitheater (even at 20k seats) is not big enough for the nfl draft.

[Hushpuppy321]

I do hope for the eventual return/redevelopment/revitalization of the Epicenter.  I also am beginning to see how the planned Entertainment District around/near the Foundry Area could absolutely work.  It is now currently cutoff and distant from most of Uptown but I am surprised how quickly the Gold District area is developing.  It’s totally possible that by the time any new stadium breaks ground (Maybe in the 2029 to 2030 timeframe) that the Gold District could be ‘built out’ residentially and with growth spilling into this portion of 3rd Ward.  SilverLine routing through here would be great but even if that never materialized I think this area would still thrive.

[InSouthPark]

19 hours ago, eastsider said:

An amphitheater (even at 20k seats) is not big enough for the nfl draft.

Correct.  The drafts, since they have moved from NYC,  have been setup on large outdoor stages in downtowns with attendance at way more than 20k.  Nashville had like 200k a day.  

Edited March 10, 2022 by InSouthPark

[JRCLT]

You think Uptown/Center City could handle a crowd that large?

[InSouthPark]

2 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

You think Uptown/Center City could handle a crowd that large?

People wouldn't travel to Charlotte like they do Nashville.  Uptown could easily handle 100k a day.  And those are just general attendance numbers, not just people watching the actual TV part (but its still a LOT of people).  Will be more interesting when it is in KC next year.  If it is a success there, it can be a success here. 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

1 hour ago, InSouthPark said:

People wouldn't travel to Charlotte like they do Nashville.  Uptown could easily handle 100k a day.  And those are just general attendance numbers, not just people watching the actual TV part (but its still a LOT of people).  Will be more interesting when it is in KC next year.  If it is a success there, it can be a success here. 

KC's Power and Light district is EXTREMELY popular.

[RANYC]

24 minutes ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

KC's Power and Light district is EXTREMELY popular.

Is that what Tepper has planned for Pipe & Foundry, something akin to KC Power & Light District?  At one point, Jags Owner Shad Khan took Jacksonville's mayor to KC to scope it out for an entertainment district planned by that city's stadium and along the riverfront.

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

39 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Is that what Tepper has planned for Pipe & Foundry, something akin to KC Power & Light District?  At one point, Jags Owner Shad Khan took Jacksonville's mayor to KC to scope it out for an entertainment district planned by that city's stadium and along the riverfront.

Jacksonville's entire downtown waterfront is being developed by Khan right now.

Teppers' will probably be a mix of the Battery in ATL, Power and Light and a few other things.

[JacksonH]

5 hours ago, RANYC said:

Is that what Tepper has planned for Pipe & Foundry, something akin to KC Power & Light District?  At one point, Jags Owner Shad Khan took Jacksonville's mayor to KC to scope it out for an entertainment district planned by that city's stadium and along the riverfront.

I hope Tepper tries to top Shad Khan's idea and turn the Pipe & Foundry property into a lakefront  entertainment district along the banks of the future John Belk Lake.

[Matthew.Brendan]

13 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Jacksonville's entire downtown waterfront is being developed by Khan right now.

Teppers' will probably be a mix of the Battery in ATL, Power and Light and a few other things.

The Battery does a lot of stuff right. Central parking deck, free parking up to 3 hours, walk to a bunch of shops, outside dining etc... good views into the park. Still too much on-street parking in front of the shops (should be drop off/pick up only, not long term parking) and not enough actual green space other than planter boxes, but at least there are wide sidewalks and actual benches to sit.

[InSouthPark]

15 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

KC's Power and Light district is EXTREMELY popular.

I am just speaking on terms of a city people are willing to fly to to see the draft.   Nashville was already a huge tourist destination.  Vegas is vegas.  Chicago and Philly are two of the biggest cities in the US.  While the KC Power and light district might be popular...it it isn't know nationwide and KC is not a place people typically fly to have a good time.   Same for Detroit if they get in in 2024.

[a2theb]

On 3/9/2022 at 10:54 AM, AirNostrumMAD said:

 

 

 

 

 

I have nothing productive to add other than saying this picture makes me very nostalgic to the early 2010s, 1-2 years after college when my body could still handle going out to the epicenter after work on Thursdays until 11 at night

[Hushpuppy321]

On 3/10/2022 at 3:20 PM, InSouthPark said:

People wouldn't travel to Charlotte like they do Nashville.  Uptown could easily handle 100k a day.  And those are just general attendance numbers, not just people watching the actual TV part (but its still a LOT of people).  Will be more interesting when it is in KC next year.  If it is a success there, it can be a success here. 

Curious as to why folks wouldn’t travel to Charlotte like they do Nashville?  Flights more expensive or too far away?  I do think people say that Nashville is more of a tourist destination and Charlotte is more of a business destination.  I don’t travel much so not sure.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Hushpuppy321

[Blue_Devil]

2 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Curious as to why folks wouldn’t travel to Charlotte like they do Nashville?  Flights more expensive or too far away?  I do think people say that Nashville is more of a tourist destination and Charlotte is more of a business destination.  I don’t travel much so not sure.

As SouthEnd grows, and if the Tepper Entertainment District can somewhat be incorporated, I believe SouthEnd will become its own destination.