Charlotte Pipe &Foundry redevelopment

[slipperypete]

2 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Curious as to why folks wouldn’t travel to Charlotte like they do Nashville?  Flights more expensive or too far away?  I do think people say that Nashville is more of a tourist destination and Charlotte is more of a business destination.  I don’t travel much so not sure.

Nashville has more leisure travel pull (in my opinion) because of it's vibrant music scene, historic music industry connections (Ryman, Opry, Hall of Fame), a stronger cultural identity, more historic sights, and a bigger nightlife scene. It gets things like bachelor(ette) parties because of all the entertainment options. Even people who aren't that into country or blues music will often go just to check it out, and I think they're probably more likely to go to the hall of fame there vs non-racing-fans going to the NASCAR HoF here.  It's also their state capitol, and home to a highly ranked private university (Vanderbilt), along with a number of other universities. So there is a certain civic draw just like we have in NC for visiting Raleigh. 

I think by comparison Charlotte will have a stronger business travel vs leisure travel draw for quite a while longer. We do get some people who like urban environments/architecture, race fans, sports fans and UNC Charlotte brings people here. An entertainment district with more options than at Music Factory will help, even if just by having more spaces for live events.  Maybe once people can rent paddleboats on John Belk Lake we'll have that one premium draw that puts us over the top. 

[TheOneRJ]

I think some of you are underestimating Charlotte’s ability to attract leisure tourism for an event like the NFL draft. The mindset of draft attendees isn’t “let’s travel to Nashville because it’s Nashville, oh, and the draft is there too”. 

[InSouthPark]

4 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Curious as to why folks wouldn’t travel to Charlotte like they do Nashville?  Flights more expensive or too far away?  I do think people say that Nashville is more of a tourist destination and Charlotte is more of a business destination.  I don’t travel much so not sure.

Nashville is like the live music capital of the world, country capital of the world, biggest destination for bachelorette parties....we got the second biggest banking town and literally like one tourist destination that people would come back to (USNWC).   My 15 year old daughter went to Nashville over presidents day weekend..."There is SO much to do there we didn't have enough time".  

[slipperypete]

2 hours ago, TheOneRJ said:

I think some of you are underestimating Charlotte’s ability to attract leisure tourism for an event like the NFL draft. The mindset of draft attendees isn’t “let’s travel to Nashville because it’s Nashville, oh, and the draft is there too”. 

I absolutely agree that special-interest events will draw a different set of people. And they will come based on the merits of the event itself, not the city it's held in. We should go after that stuff (with a reasonable amount of civic investment). But I was providing an opinion on a different question - does Nashville have greater draw for tourists in general, and if so, why? I think it does. 

So it's not to say that Charlotte can't draw with events. It's just that in my opinion we're starting from a lower leisure travel floor vs a city like Nashville (or Austin, or Denver, or Atlanta) when we add those things on. So I would expect our peak leisure travel to still underperform in comparison.   As long as we don't overspend to attract tourists I think it will be good for the city and lead to more organic growth in both business and leisure visitors. 

[KJHburg]

8 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Curious as to why folks wouldn’t travel to Charlotte like they do Nashville?  Flights more expensive or too far away?  I do think people say that Nashville is more of a tourist destination and Charlotte is more of a business destination.  I don’t travel much so not sure.

Nashville has some live music and of course the country music capital but it is generally just a fun city with lots of bars and clubs and live music.  Like a New Orleans but safer and cleaner. 

[kayman]

21 hours ago, TheOneRJ said:

I think some of you are underestimating Charlotte’s ability to attract leisure tourism for an event like the NFL draft. The mindset of draft attendees isn’t “let’s travel to Nashville because it’s Nashville, oh, and the draft is there too”. 

I was saying the same thing. There are very few non-white people like myself who are itching to visit Nashville. Nashville is seriously lacking in the cultural diversity, the racial and ethnic kind outside of the country music and honky tonks. Neither of which is something a black or other non-white person would be looking to visit at all.  Aside from the true origins of country western music which is obsecured by most historic publications and the HBCUs there, Nashville is a NO for tourism in my eyes. 

With its richer cultural history and racial & ethnic diversity, Charlotte could easily trump past Nashville in tourism if it focuses on its historical, cultural resources, and develop more activity centers not only centered around corporate offices. Charlotte doesn't need to even be trying to compete with the tourism audience bases of places like Nashville nor Austin because they are lacking in cultural diversity. This city is much more diverse than those places are by a long shot. 

At the rate of growth happening here with black transplants here (which was proven by the press release from last week there was a serious undercount of black and Latin/Hispanic populations in the 2020 US Census count), Charlotte has the potential to draw more culturally-inclusive tourism here as rival cities such as Atlanta, Houston, or even Dallas. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by kayman

[Durhamite]

Mic Drop….nobody I know has ever ever been interested in spending a weekend in Nashville.  Nice place , been there for business travel…that was more than  enough.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Durhamite

[Urban Cowboy]

On 3/15/2022 at 8:36 PM, KJHburg said:

Nashville has some live music and of course the country music capital but it is generally just a fun city with lots of bars and clubs and live music.  Like a New Orleans but safer and cleaner. 

New Orleans is a truly incredible and authentically American city. I've never felt unsafe or thought it was dirty. There's a lot of poverty, sure - but there's a ton of civic pride there. Truly one of the best and unique city experiences this country can offer. The only reason I would compare the two is because they're both tourism destinations. However - outside of Mardi Gras, I would argue that New Orleans' tourism is NOT centered around getting hammered. 

Nashville on the other hand, is the Texas Roadhouse of cities. Probably some of the best people watching west of Gatlinburg; And that's only because they attract the same clientele. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Urban Cowboy

[Vitamin_N]

21 hours ago, Durhamite said:

Mic Drop….nobody I know has ever ever been interested in spending a weekend in Nashville.  Nice place , been there for business travel…that was more than  enough.

I'd had brief trips to Nashville a few times over the years but never enough to really see the place. I finally did four days there as a tourist last summer with my family and while I didn't dislike it I have no desire to return. I'm not saying it was bad or anything, it's just not my cup of tea. It doesn't help that I'm not into country music or the bar scene; it's probably a lot more fun with either one of those.

[videtur quam contuor]

I will steal this thread for four minutes:

Man goes to New Orleans for convention. Wanders the Vieux Carré, alleys and shops. One dark place at the end of an alley attracts him. It is some kind of magic store. Rasta woman runs the place. He sees a small brass mouse. Something takes hold of him. He must have the brass mouse. Rasta woman says "Oh, monsieur, dat be de bad medicine. You don' take dat one." He insists and she names an absurdly high price. For some reason he agrees and pays. In his hotel room he tries to understand what happened. Then the brass mouse moves. Then it runs to the door. The man pinches himself awake, no drugs, no alcohol, is this real, it must be. He follows the brass mouse down the hall and out to the street. No one sees the mouse but he. Then all the mice in New Orleans congregate in a line behind his mouse. They form a moving wave and pass through Jackson Square, run up the levee and leap into the brown river and are all swept away, never seen again.

Man returns to the Juju shop. Woman sees him approach, makes fingers into a cross and says "I tol' you dat one bad medicine." "I am not here about the brass monkey" he said. "But do you have a small brass teenager?"

 

 

(punch line can be minister, mascot of least favorite college, anything. Best jokes transfer easily)

resume your Sunday.

[KJHburg]

here is the status of the plant out in Oakboro I was out that way today.  Plus a lot better photos on the architects website too.  Until this is open and operational there is no redevelopment of the plant site in Charlotte/.  That ceiling height is massive and this area is very rural around the plant except for a few homes and it is about 2 miles outside the town of Oakboro. 

https://wgmdesign.com/charlotte-pipe-foundry-oakboro/

[KJHburg]

CBRE is hired to market the Pipe and Foundry's uptown 55 acre sites.  Could do joint ventures according to this Biz Journal article.

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/11/16/cbre-charlotte-pipe-and-foundry-company.html

""Twenty-four national developers have toured the site in the past 18 months. Charlotte Pipe and company advisers spent the past two months interviewing real estate firms before selecting CBRE.

CBRE and Chip Mark, CEO and founder of Mark Real Estate Advisors, who is a consultant to Charlotte Pipe on real estate, will market the property on behalf of Charlotte Pipe beginning in January. The site stretches from West Morehead Street to West Summit Avenue east of Interstate 77.""

Ned Curran, the former CEO and CEO Emeritus of real estate firms that built and expanded the Ballantyne development in south Charlotte, has been advising Charlotte Pipe on the 55.5-acre property through his consulting firm, Stone Cottage Advisors.

Curran told CBJ Wednesday, “We’ve not had a conversation with the Panthers in years. There’s no negative connotation with that.” He added that the land can serve “as a front door to the center city” and offers tantalizing prospects because it is situated adjacent to the booming South End area, is bisected by Interstate 277, and is 7 miles from the airport. Wesley Heights, Freedom Drive, and Camp Greene are all nearby.""

rendering courtesy of CBRE

 

[KJHburg]

one more thing about the new listing from the Biz Journal article

""The property’s northern portion spans 30 acres and abuts Morehead Street while the southern piece encompasses 25 acres and leads into South End. Charlotte Pipe could sell the property or form a joint venture with developers; the latter option is considered likelier.""

 

 

[SydneyCarton]

[Madison Parkitect]

That's a lot of green roofs that won't ever actually be built.

[KJHburg]

Here is the promotional video from their marketing website

this might have been posted before but it is a good overview of the property which straddles 277.

https://www.irondistrictcharlotte.com/default.aspx

 

[kermit]

^ interesting that the drone footage is more than a year old, the FNB tower still had a crane over it. The Southend skyline would have been more impressive with newer footage.

Edited November 17, 2022 by kermit

[SydneyCarton]

The one drawback to this property is that it’s separated from Uptown by the train tracks.  

[Reverie39]

20 hours ago, KJHburg said:

This rendering really drives home just how much space that 55 acres is. You can fit so much in there. If we aren't getting a new stadium there, I would be ecstatic to see this kind of density erupt.

[CLT Development]

3 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Here is the promotional video from their marketing website

this might have been posted before but it is a good overview of the property which straddles 277.

https://www.irondistrictcharlotte.com/default.aspx

 

I'm fudgeing embarrassed for whomever put this together. Its so badly designed and they definitely didn't consult anyone on the labels being correct.

3 hours ago, kermit said:

^ interesting that the drone footage is more than a year old, the FNB tower still had a crane over it. The Southend skyline would have been more impressive with newer footage.

Its because the offering memorandum for this site has been out for a year. Saying "it just went on the market" is false.

[J-Rob]

21 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Curran told CBJ Wednesday, “We’ve not had a conversation with the Panthers in years. There’s no negative connotation with that.” He added that the land can serve “as a front door to the center city” and offers tantalizing prospects because it is situated adjacent to the booming South End area, is bisected by Interstate 277, and is 7 miles from the airport. Wesley Heights, Freedom Drive, and Camp Greene are all nearby.""

This comment and the one about 24 developers touring the site, plus the rendering, gives me doubt that the Panthers plan to put a stadium here. I am curious if Tepper is leaning toward retrofitting BofA?

[InSouthPark]

11 minutes ago, J-Rob said:

This comment and the one about 24 developers touring the site, plus the rendering, gives me doubt that the Panthers plan to put a stadium here. I am curious if Tepper is leaning toward retrofitting BofA?

Wouldn't you do your due diligence as an owner to see what others brought to the table? They might not have talked to Panthers in a year but I am sure they/Tepper have been working on a plan but they aren't going to spill the beans to anyone before something is signed.  Doing their work on ROI before final $$$ numbers.  I dunno. 

[wilmore]

It's hard for me to imagine something that big ever going on this site; this type of scale would really need the entire road grid around there to be changed, and 277 to be moved; otherwise, this is the least accessible spot within the entire greater Uptown area (except for Music Factory, which is bad for similar reasons), so I don't know why we would expect like 20 towers to be filled here. 

[J-Rob]

41 minutes ago, InSouthPark said:

Wouldn't you do your due diligence as an owner to see what others brought to the table? They might not have talked to Panthers in a year but I am sure they/Tepper have been working on a plan but they aren't going to spill the beans to anyone before something is signed.  Doing their work on ROI before final $$$ numbers.  I dunno. 

I would obviously complete due diligence, but hosting 24 developers over a period of 18 months seems like more than due diligence. It seems like plan A, and any other talks may be inconsequential, or plan B at best. That's my point. I imagine if the Panthers were aggressively involved, the city could be involved, too, and that doesn't seem to be the case at face value. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by J-Rob

[15895]

27 minutes ago, wilmore said:

It's hard for me to imagine something that big ever going on this site; this type of scale would really need the entire road grid around there to be changed, and 277 to be moved; otherwise, this is the least accessible spot within the entire greater Uptown area (except for Music Factory, which is bad for similar reasons), so I don't know why we would expect like 20 towers to be filled here. 

Silver Line would've been/could solve that issue.