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GRDadof3

Spectrum Health's new "consolidated offices" HQ's

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The key is on site or the frontage of the site. The courts take a dim view of "voluntary" contributions.  They volunteered but it's tied to project approval - can't do that. What usually happens is a Economic Development grant. Those are tied to job creation but typically they need to be industrial. Sewer and water are user paid utilities plus it is all on site. 

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37 minutes ago, Raildude's dad said:

The key is on site or the frontage of the site. The courts take a dim view of "voluntary" contributions.  They volunteered but it's tied to project approval - can't do that. What usually happens is a Economic Development grant. Those are tied to job creation but typically they need to be industrial. Sewer and water are user paid utilities plus it is all on site. 

I think we agree legally. I just think there's a broader context for Spectrum to consider. That site is hard to get in and out of. And it's hard to get to at all from its southwest, which is the direction most of the region's population lives in. 

The people most inconvenienced will be Spectrum's employees. So it's in their best interests to improve some of the deficiencies in the transportation network that will hamper commuting to that site. 

But I agree there's only so much the City can pressure/force them to do.

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28 minutes ago, Khorasaurus1 said:

I think we agree legally. I just think there's a broader context for Spectrum to consider. That site is hard to get in and out of. And it's hard to get to at all from its southwest, which is the direction most of the region's population lives in. 

The people most inconvenienced will be Spectrum's employees. So it's in their best interests to improve some of the deficiencies in the transportation network that will hamper commuting to that site. 

But I agree there's only so much the City can pressure/force them to do.

We are talking 3 years out here, we haven't seen any kind of rendering or concept at this point.  How can you even be certain these types of questions concerning infrastructure aren't being considered?

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51 minutes ago, MJLO said:

We are talking 3 years out here, we haven't seen any kind of rendering or concept at this point.  How can you even be certain these types of questions concerning infrastructure aren't being considered?

Maybe they are. I'm not trying to accuse anyone of being short sighted. I'm bringing up potential issues with this development. Maybe my tone is off. Sorry about that. 

And just to be clear, I'm not coming from a place of downtown homerism or militant urbanism here (even though I am a downtown homer and an urbanist...). I'm just trying to picture that many employees on that site, and how it would work. 

 

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2 hours ago, Khorasaurus1 said:

Maybe they are. I'm not trying to accuse anyone of being short sighted. I'm bringing up potential issues with this development. Maybe my tone is off. Sorry about that. 

And just to be clear, I'm not coming from a place of downtown homerism or militant urbanism here (even though I am a downtown homer and an urbanist...). I'm just trying to picture that many employees on that site, and how it would work. 

That's fair :)  Keep in mind this would be  consolidation of several departments most of which don't have more than 40 people (there are a few bigger ones).   Quite a few of those people  also have work stations in various facilities on the hill as well.  We are talking several hundred, not 2000-3000 that one might think in a traditional corporate campus.  I think the bigger component to this will be the education component.   They are consolidating all of the classes/training they do.  Currently all of the training and certifications for regional hospitals as well as Grand Rapids hospitals are scattered throughout downtown.  That's pretty intimidating for folks coming from Ludington, Reed City, St. Joe ect.  This would definitely impact traffic volumes in that area, but not to the level if say a Meijer, or a Kellogg's put an HQ there.

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On 6/12/2019 at 1:27 PM, GRLaker said:

Honestly, much of Spectrum's administration are not in a position to walk around downtown for lunch.

Well, so far this week I've walked to butchers union for lunch on Wed, had taco tuesday at El Cunado on Bridge,  Went to Little Bird on Monroe Center for breakfast today, and got coffee at Madcop on Monday.   Tomorrow's lunch will however be at the Hospital Cafet---err, the Michigan Street Market & Grill. (t's wicked nice).

We get around. :-)  (some of us anyway)

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It's safe to say, there will be patient care out there as well.  It's 60-ish acres.  The trend in healthcare is to push more services to low cost outpatient, not hospital attached, services.   Its not just going to be a corporate campus.  Admin, Training and probably patient care of some sort.

Things like total hips and total knees can now be done on an outpatient modified overnight status almost. https://www.verywellhealth.com/outpatient-total-hip-replacement-surgery-2549651

Many procedures previously requiring a surgical suite, can now be done in an office.   I had double carpral tunnel  surgery done last year in office. https://fox17online.com/2016/11/22/office-based-hand-surgery-cheaper-pain-free-way-to-fix-carpal-tunnel/

Even something like a stand alone birthing center are becoming more common...w/ a more homey-suburban feel, vs. a hospital stay.  https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/12/health/us-birth-centers-increase/index.html

Some other things I think of coming of this:

4069 and 4100 Lake Dr. on East Paris are leased space, former MMPC sites run by Hughes Mgt. No word on the future of that, but one can think...

Fingers crossed that Widdicomb turns over to condos after Spectrum vacates.  Brassworks should too.

I want my Ariel tram connecting Medical Mile to the Medical Beltline.  Just kidding, with the Spectrum/GVSU parking ramp and this new build, there should not be a reason to have to shuttle anyone from offsite parking.  The bus is a HUGE dissatisfier for staff, I'm not certain we'd continue to  shuttle to the plymouth lot.  Staff  have to ride it with *regular people*  /sarcasm.

C-suite specifically is in the Newly renovated North Office Building...don't believe they'd move.  Other SVPs/VPs sure.

disclaimer:  employed by SH,  thoughts my own, these are mostly speculation only.


 

Edited by grandrollerz
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1 hour ago, grandrollerz said:

Just kidding, with the Spectrum/GVSU parking ramp and this new build, there should not be a reason to have to shuttle anyone from offsite parking.  The bus is a HUGE dissatisfier for staff, I'm not certain we'd continue to  shuttle to the plymouth lot.  Staff  have to ride it with *regular people*  /sarcasm

I think the amount of traffic on Michigan Street is going to be a big incentive to keep staff off-site and shuttling in. The area can not support more cars, the new parking structure is needed for patients not staff. 

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On 6/11/2019 at 10:33 AM, GR_Urbanist said:

:dontknow:

I've come to realize that these institutions only see the whole "urbanism" thing and being downtown as just a PR tool to gloss up their image or present some sort of cringy "woke" vibe. They are still very much oriented towards whatever suburban plots they can quickly and cheaply expand onto like if this was any year from 1955-2000.

When it comes down to it, if they can plow under 200 acres for a 900 space parking lot with a tiny office park style building in the middle of it, out by the E. Beltline, they will do it in a heartbeat. Doesn't matter if it is Amway, Meijer, Steelcase, Spectrum Health, or whomever. None of these guys want to be downtown, at least not their coporate HQs or anything department that doesn't need to be. It is expensive, and a PITA when their older workforce doesnt have a cheap place to store their car reliably.

We see DT as the place to be, and someplace that these entities ought to be staking a spot in. They will say they agree, to sound like they are "hip" and aware of work trends because they *really* want to attract fresh young talent that want to be in the city, but that is all just gloss for the magazines and news outlets or for the DDA and CoC to put in their literature. However, Spectrum made it clear what they are most concerned with:

Hey, that's real money for them. Employees will just have to drive up to Knapp for a burger, or enjoy a wonderful view of the highway or some retaining pond. I'm more than sure they will try to soften the location by touting themselves being "near" the Meijer Gardens as some sort of plus, despite the fact that the only way to it is to drive as well. Besides it is likely most of the people working here are going to be people with kids (and have two cars) or middle-aged managers that have been with Spectrum for like 20-30 years (and dont want to walk more than 20 yards in any direction), not childless twenty-somethings  with "active lifestyles".

This is about Spectrum wanting a cheap building on cheap land to fill with cheap cubicles. That's a hard thing to argue against when dollars count.

Thinking about this and the new Acrisure HQ's out in Cascade, has the cost to locate employment downtown become too much of an obstacle to overcome? Does anyone else think the city's handling of the parking issues/perception of issues may be part of the problem? 

Or maybe it's just lack of available land. If you had the ability to build a new HQ's for your 800 or 1000 people, where would you put it downtown? The Amway folks are never going to let go of any of their properties. The 5/3 parking lot seems like a (maybe the only) logical choice in the center of everything and built for a corporate campus. 

The West Side city parking lots are an opportunity that will happen some day but the costs may be prohibitive. 

10 hours ago, grandrollerz said:

It's safe to say, there will be patient care out there as well.  It's 60-ish acres.  The trend in healthcare is to push more services to low cost outpatient, not hospital attached, services.   Its not just going to be a corporate campus.  Admin, Training and probably patient care of some sort.

Things like total hips and total knees can now be done on an outpatient modified overnight status almost. https://www.verywellhealth.com/outpatient-total-hip-replacement-surgery-2549651

Many procedures previously requiring a surgical suite, can now be done in an office.   I had double carpral tunnel  surgery done last year in office. https://fox17online.com/2016/11/22/office-based-hand-surgery-cheaper-pain-free-way-to-fix-carpal-tunnel/

Even something like a stand alone birthing center are becoming more common...w/ a more homey-suburban feel, vs. a hospital stay.  https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/12/health/us-birth-centers-increase/index.html

Some other things I think of coming of this:

4069 and 4100 Lake Dr. on East Paris are leased space, former MMPC sites run by Hughes Mgt. No word on the future of that, but one can think...

Fingers crossed that Widdicomb turns over to condos after Spectrum vacates.  Brassworks should too.

I want my Ariel tram connecting Medical Mile to the Medical Beltline.  Just kidding, with the Spectrum/GVSU parking ramp and this new build, there should not be a reason to have to shuttle anyone from offsite parking.  The bus is a HUGE dissatisfier for staff, I'm not certain we'd continue to  shuttle to the plymouth lot.  Staff  have to ride it with *regular people*  /sarcasm.

C-suite specifically is in the Newly renovated North Office Building...don't believe they'd move.  Other SVPs/VPs sure.

disclaimer:  employed by SH,  thoughts my own, these are mostly speculation only.


 

This. Downtown needs more condos. And building a new condo building from scratch is quite challenging now. 

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The Widdicomb building not being used by Spectrum sat empty for many years. Since I don't work there anymore, I'm not sure if it has been filled yet or not. But I am surprised they never made that building into condos. 

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IIRC, most of the land on Leffingwell has been held by Spectrum for decades.  I want to say it was originally land for either a replacement Ferguson Hospital or maybe Blodgett Hospital pre-merger...so at least 20+ years?

I also seem to recall that when West Michigan Heart (now SH Heart and Vascular Institute) built their building on Bradford, that they had planned for a future second wing on the site, so it'll be interesting to see if that plays out.

I had a conversation with my daughter the other day while driving down Leonard past Yankee Clipper library and again when looking at condos near Huff Park but.....I don't really consider this site to be outside the city, nor Huff Park or Yankee Clipper.  I'd ride my bike there from Kent Hills to Huff and the library as a kid, so that's my yardstick I guess.  <_<

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I don't see how parking would be an issue for someone looking to build a new office building—just include a ramp. Of course, surface lots are cheaper.

I think Spectrum has to be extremely careful in the image they present. It's much harder to deflect claims of opulence (whether warranted or not) when they're focused on your administrative offices, compared to your medical facilities. Harder to fundraise, too—something tells me this building won't have anyone's name on it. Spectrum also likes to keep a low profile with its non-public-facing facilities: look at the signage on 25 Ottawa for an example (last I checked, the big sign-holder on the building rents a fraction of a single floor of space [I'm sure they pay extra for that big sign]).

IMHO, our business culture here is still catching up with the increasing economic prosperity and cost of living in the area. And I think there's a tendency to avoid flashy statements such as "expensive" downtown office towers. I think there's still a lot of truth to the frugality competition that's become a West Michigan cliché.

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10 minutes ago, organsnyder said:

I don't see how parking would be an issue for someone looking to build a new office building—just include a ramp. Of course, surface lots are cheaper.

I think Spectrum has to be extremely careful in the image they present. It's much harder to deflect claims of opulence (whether warranted or not) when they're focused on your administrative offices, compared to your medical facilities. Harder to fundraise, too—something tells me this building won't have anyone's name on it. Spectrum also likes to keep a low profile with its non-public-facing facilities: look at the signage on 25 Ottawa for an example (last I checked, the big sign-holder on the building rents a fraction of a single floor of space [I'm sure they pay extra for that big sign]).

IMHO, our business culture here is still catching up with the increasing economic prosperity and cost of living in the area. And I think there's a tendency to avoid flashy statements such as "expensive" downtown office towers. I think there's still a lot of truth to the frugality competition that's become a West Michigan cliché.

Well if you need parking for say 600 people, the ramp alone is $21 Million. And as a company you'll never EVER make a profit on that ramp. It will always be a red number. Most companies in this area aren't like Facebook, Amazon and name any other tech company. They HAVE to make a profit here, they have no choice.  The leadership team can be held personally responsible if they don't (ie be sued by shareholders personally). 

And that's not for a nice looking ramp, that's for an Orion looking ramp with cheap metal screens on it. That's why a lot of downtown employers leaned on the city to build ramps for all these years (which ramps make a profit for the city anyway). 

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2 hours ago, organsnyder said:

I don't see how parking would be an issue for someone looking to build a new office building—just include a ramp. Of course, surface lots are cheaper.

I think Spectrum has to be extremely careful in the image they present. It's much harder to deflect claims of opulence (whether warranted or not) when they're focused on your administrative offices, compared to your medical facilities. Harder to fundraise, too—something tells me this building won't have anyone's name on it. Spectrum also likes to keep a low profile with its non-public-facing facilities: look at the signage on 25 Ottawa for an example (last I checked, the big sign-holder on the building rents a fraction of a single floor of space [I'm sure they pay extra for that big sign]).

IMHO, our business culture here is still catching up with the increasing economic prosperity and cost of living in the area. And I think there's a tendency to avoid flashy statements such as "expensive" downtown office towers. I think there's still a lot of truth to the frugality competition that's become a West Michigan cliché.

I always thought Spectrum was woefully behind the times when it came to administrative office space. However, I think all healthcare organizations should have a central admin office to remove unnecessary barriers to departments working together.

Other large healthcare organizations around the country have headquarters. Some that come to mind among the many I'm sure...

Adventist Health in Florida

Adventist_Health_System_Headquarters.jpg

Mercy Health in Ohio

mercy3256*1200xx1200-675-0-63.jpg

Ohio Health

ohio-health-03.jpg

Beaumont Health in Detroit

beaumont-shared-services-building.jpg?sf

Trinity Health in Livonia

FREE_111019865_AR_-1_0.jpg

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2 hours ago, GRLaker said:

I always thought Spectrum was woefully behind the times when it came to administrative office space. However, I think all healthcare organizations should have a central admin office to remove unnecessary barriers to departments working together.

Other large healthcare organizations around the country have headquarters. Some that come to mind among the many I'm sure...

Adventist Health in Florida

Adventist_Health_System_Headquarters.jpg

Mercy Health in Ohio

 

Ohio Health

ohio-health-03.jpg

Beaumont Health in Detroit

 

Trinity Health in Livonia

 

 

I think we'd be lucky if we got a building that looked as nice as those. Or I think similar to the healthcare buildings in Carmel, IN as you're rolling into Indianapolis:

1672782875_Indianapolisbuilding1.thumb.JPG.7d69238088bc5eb96afc7a332ffa16ca.JPG

 

1012586139_IUhospitalindianapolis.thumb.JPG.ecb0289fa995f9ff9ef8902eba49212b.JPG

 

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5 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Or maybe it's just lack of available land. If you had the ability to build a new HQ's for your 800 or 1000 people, where would you put it downtown? The Amway folks are never going to let go of any of their properties. The 5/3 parking lot seems like a (maybe the only) logical choice in the center of everything and built for a corporate campus. 

What about the giant parking lot at Fulton and Market? It's riverfront, too. 

But this is kind of like how 5/3 Ballpark was built in the suburbs because no one wanted to go downtown. And now the Whitecaps will never move downtown because the land is too expensive for a baseball stadium. We may have missed our shot at a big corporate HQ downtown. 

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Just now, Khorasaurus1 said:

What about the giant parking lot at Fulton and Market? It's riverfront, too. 

But this is kind of like how 5/3 Ballpark was built in the suburbs because no one wanted to go downtown. And now the Whitecaps will never move downtown because the land is too expensive for a baseball stadium. We may have missed our shot at a big corporate HQ downtown. 

Amway owns that lot, they're never going to give that up. 

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1 hour ago, GRDadof3 said:

 

I think we'd be lucky if we got a building that looked as nice as those. Or I think similar to the healthcare buildings in Carmel, IN as you're rolling into Indianapolis:

1672782875_Indianapolisbuilding1.thumb.JPG.7d69238088bc5eb96afc7a332ffa16ca.JPG

 

1012586139_IUhospitalindianapolis.thumb.JPG.ecb0289fa995f9ff9ef8902eba49212b.JPG

 

Yes. I also enjoy driving through Carmel and seeing those buildings. Hopefully we do see something similar.

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Spectrum has plenty of land to build on Medical Mile if they wanted to.  They would probably have to go vertical, which I'm assuming would be more expensive than building a 2-3 story building in the suburbs

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2 minutes ago, Floyd_Z said:

Spectrum has plenty of land to build on Medical Mile if they wanted to.  They would probably have to go vertical, which I'm assuming would be more expensive than building a 2-3 story building in the suburbs

Even then the problem remains parking, and then getting to work spaces.  Building  along Michigan wont help that.

 

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2 hours ago, Floyd_Z said:

Spectrum has plenty of land to build on Medical Mile if they wanted to.  They would probably have to go vertical, which I'm assuming would be more expensive than building a 2-3 story building in the suburbs

I'm not familiar with said property. Where? 

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I know it's not downtown, but this HQ location is still within the Grand Rapids city limits. The city itself is not losing out on anything here. It's just not downtown.

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On 6/16/2019 at 1:22 PM, GRDadof3 said:

I'm not familiar with said property. Where? 

Well all of this really.....

 

spectrum.thumb.png.5a5e525c7a0998b028eee8f1f3d50d10.png

 

I get it, they're not going to develop it for administrative operations.  Parking in a ramp costs what?  $25,000 a space vs how much for a surface lot?

While they probably won't, they COULD.  I'm guessing they'll hang onto it for hospital expansion.

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16 hours ago, Floyd_Z said:

Well all of this really.....

 

spectrum.thumb.png.5a5e525c7a0998b028eee8f1f3d50d10.png

 

I get it, they're not going to develop it for administrative operations.  Parking in a ramp costs what?  $25,000 a space vs how much for a surface lot?

While they probably won't, they COULD.  I'm guessing they'll hang onto it for hospital expansion.

Touche! Maybe Spectrum should approach the State for $20 Million to go toward the parking ramp and put it along Michigan Street. Blue Cross got a ton of money from the State to move its Detroit HQ from Southfield to the Ren Center and other buildings in that vicinity. 

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33 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

Touche! Maybe Spectrum should approach the State for $20 Million to go toward the parking ramp and put it along Michigan Street. Blue Cross got a ton of money from the State to move its Detroit HQ from Southfield to the Ren Center and other buildings in that vicinity. 

LOL, the State would probably tell Spectrum if they want money they can go move to Downtown Detroit too.

Edited by RegalTDP
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