Lake Ave. & Pine St. | 33-Story Mixed-Use [Proposed]

[JFW657]

 

2 hours ago, orange87 said:

 

Yep. I'm one of....   THEM!!!!    

Edited February 19, 2022 by JFW657

[nite owℓ]

10 hours ago, jliv said:

FAA approvals…ahem…funding partners.


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The fact that multifamily projects are still struggling to get off the ground despite a "housing shortage" is baffling to me.

[jliv]

The fact that multifamily projects are still struggling to get off the ground despite a "housing shortage" is baffling to me.

Let’s not forget the fact that we just had a real estate developer (warning: political content ahead) as POTUS, so we’ve gotten broad insight into the game of bull**** they constantly play to pull together deals. It would be kryptonite to say they’re struggling for investors, so they can blame delays on “FAA approvals”, much like Elon Musk recently did for his Starship project! Fundamentally, I think Orlando is lacking in wealthy seed investors, outside of people like Joe Lewis, and the Great Recession cleared the decks of a lot of wealth. As a result, developers have to convince out-of-town, conservative investment banks to participate in ambitious projects, who have been burned in Florida many times over boom-and-bust cycles. Hedge fund and sovereign wealth fund managers, like the kind fuelling Miami, Dubai, and London development, probably don’t give Orlando a second glance unless the project is tourism-related or has significant pre-leasing.

[Uncommon]

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/arts-and-theater/os-prem-et-orlando-museum-art-downtown-project-off-20220219-jq2zbutmqnfllechro75j4fsh4-story.html

Lol Orlando is such a lame, POS city sometimes.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Uncommon

[IAmFloridaBorn]

13 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/arts-and-theater/os-prem-et-orlando-museum-art-downtown-project-off-20220219-jq2zbutmqnfllechro75j4fsh4-story.html

Lol Orlando is such a lame, POS city sometimes.

I agree. Can't stand the way this city and it's leaders think .

[Jernigan]

I understand the FAA approvals to be legit based on my intel…not that it has to be the only thing 

[Uncommon]

10 minutes ago, Jernigan said:

I understand the FAA approvals to be legit based on my intel…not that it has to be the only thing 

I hope to god you're right and the developer didn't back out or fail to secure funding. That would likely mean the entire project has completely failed as opposed to just being stalled. There is no reason why St. Pete and even Tampa should be totally kicking Orlando's ass in development in and around the core.
 

I also hope the OMA can still find a place downtown, which is desperate for some semblance of culture and class. I shudder at the prospect of downtown Orlando devolving into something close to downtown Jacksonville: no draw at all for anyone other than the homeless and drunks.

[Musikprince]

On 2/18/2022 at 4:18 PM, JFW657 said:

I am going to once again be the forum heretic here and say (once again) that I hope this project never happens.

I'd like to see something about 20 - 25 stories go up there, but I don't want the St. Regis to get demo'd.

That thing as designed, is way too massive at the base IMO. 

You, my friend have become annoying! Sorry

[prahaboheme]

20 hours ago, Uncommon said:

I hope to god you're right and the developer didn't back out or fail to secure funding. That would likely mean the entire project has completely failed as opposed to just being stalled. There is no reason why St. Pete and even Tampa should be totally kicking Orlando's ass in development in and around the core.
 

I also hope the OMA can still find a place downtown, which is desperate for some semblance of culture and class. I shudder at the prospect of downtown Orlando devolving into something close to downtown Jacksonville: no draw at all for anyone other than the homeless and drunks.

Downtown Orlando  does not offer what Tampa and St Pete offer — fantastic views of one of the country’s most pristine bay shores. Orlando is at a geographic disadvantage in that regard.

Why would some buy into a luxury high rise downtown when a similar price can give you so much more  near downtown on a lake or a tree lined street?

This has always made me wonder if the geographic center of central Florida was actually Sanford, that does actually have a legitimate river front, would it compete with the aforementioned places such as St Pete?

This point doesn’t excuse downtown Orlando from devolving into the trash can it’s becoming — that’s a willing city hall standing by and doing nothing. 

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, Musikprince said:

You, my friend have become annoying! Sorry

I certainly did not intend for my opinions to hurt your feelings.

They're just opinions and like yours, they have no bearing on the outcome of any development projects. 

With that in mind, I will continue to express them freely and without regard to your or anyone else's approval.

Sorry. 

(And I still hope this project either doesn't happen, or gets scaled down enough at the base to spare the St Regis.)  

[spenser1058]

10 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I certainly did not intend for my opinions to hurt your feelings.

They're just opinions and like yours, they have no bearing on the outcome of any development projects. 

With that in mind, I will continue to express them freely and without regard to your or anyone else's approval.

Sorry. 

(And I still hope this project either doesn't happen, or gets scaled down enough at the base to spare the St Regis.)  

I’d love this project on one of those godforsaken empty parking lots along I4 and not destroying a neighborhood. 

[JFW657]

2 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I’d love this project on one of those godforsaken empty parking lots along I4 and not destroying a neighborhood. 

Exactly.

There is so much wide open asphalt over there just soaking up and radiating heat, creating runoff and just looking ugly, that it makes destroying the charm of that neighborhood unnecessary.

But then again, who wants to look out their window at I-4?

Like I said, I'd like to see a more narrow high-rise go up there with a smaller base that doesn't require losing the SR. 

I think these UP'ers with that 'pro development anywhere and at any cost to Orlando's neighborhoods' attitude, are likely on the younger side, and/or just haven't been around here very long and hence, couldn't care less about preserving the charm of neighborhoods like Eola South or any other downtown neighborhood.  

[spenser1058]

Just now, JFW657 said:

Exactly.

There is so much wide open asphalt over there just soaking up and radiating heat, creating runoff and just looking ugly, that it makes destroying the charm of that neighborhood unnecessary.

But then again, who wants to look out their window at I-4?

Like I said, I'd like to see a more narrow high-rise go up there with a smaller base that doesn't require losing the SR. 

I think these UP'ers with that 'pro development anywhere and at any cost to Orlando's neighborhoods' attitude, are likely on the younger side, and/or just haven't been around here very long and hence, couldn't care less about preserving the charm of neighborhoods like Eola South or any other downtown neighborhood.  

It is interesting how many folks here apparently missed the chapter on “a sense of place” when learning about architecture. I was just rereading the column about Frederick Law Olmsted over in Orlando History and it was a primary guidestone for him. It’s a big reason we’re still celebrating him 200 years later.

[Uncommon]

1 hour ago, prahaboheme said:

Downtown Orlando  does not offer what Tampa and St Pete offer — fantastic views of one of the country’s most pristine bay shores. Orlando is at a geographic disadvantage in that regard.

Why would some buy into a luxury high rise downtown when a similar price can give you so much more  near downtown on a lake or a tree lined street?

This has always made me wonder if the geographic center of central Florida was actually Sanford, that does actually have a legitimate river front, would it compete with the aforementioned places such as St Pete?

This point doesn’t excuse downtown Orlando from devolving into the trash can it’s becoming — that’s a willing city hall standing by and doing nothing. 

There are plenty of cities who are at geographic disadvantages and still have a significantly-improving core. Tampa and St. Pete have the waterfront but that in no way excuses why Orlando's downtown is going backwards while those two cities' downtowns are flourishing. Tampa has always had the riverfront downtown but only recently has it seen large-scale development in its downtown. For decades, Tampa's downtown was garbage. Jacksonville's downtown is still garbage despite its supposedly-geographic location.
 

Orlando is close to the 20th largest city/region in the nation. I get that Orlando is very unlike most major cities in that its downtown isn't the hub of the metropolitan area (the tourist area is, sadly), but c'mon, it seems like every year, at least 85% of the major projects proposed don't see the light of day. It's pathetic and embarrassing.

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, prahaboheme said:

Downtown Orlando  does not offer what Tampa and St Pete offer — fantastic views of one of the country’s most pristine bay shores. Orlando is at a geographic disadvantage in that regard.

Why would some buy into a luxury high rise downtown when a similar price can give you so much more  near downtown on a lake or a tree lined street?

This has always made me wonder if the geographic center of central Florida was actually Sanford, that does actually have a legitimate river front, would it compete with the aforementioned places such as St Pete?

This point doesn’t excuse downtown Orlando from devolving into the trash can it’s becoming — that’s a willing city hall standing by and doing nothing. 

It goes back to the beginning. General Henry Sanford was something of a visionary - Aaron Jernigan was anything but. Jernigan, otoh, infamous for being a Confederate smuggler and privateer, was a genius for working the angles. That’s why Orlando won.

What’s sad to me is that, in Mayor Bill, we had another visionary and in the ‘80’s he set the standard for how you could resuscitate downtown. Many Florida cities used us to benchmark. Sadly, not unlike going from an incredible president like Lincoln to a joke like Johnson, it was all lost. Whether we’ll ever get it back is an open question.

[JFW657]

I don't buy the notion that DTO is "going backwards".

Development has been almost constant over the past what... five years?

Moderna,

Radius,

The Mohawk Piano,

Orange & Robinson,

420 & 520..

And those aren't even counting Sky House, The Vue,  all the stuff up on Colonial or down at Orlando Health....

And let's not forget Society that is beginning to hint at the possibility of looking downright impressive.

Granted, they aren't soaring to the dizzying heavens, but they aren't rinky-dink either. And a few of them can actually be seen from I-4.

I'd hardly describe that as going backwards.

DTO has some big time competition that most cities don't have to contend with. 

[Uncommon]

8 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I don't buy the notion that DTO is "going backwards".

Development has been almost constant over the past what... five years?

Moderna,

Radius,

The Mohawk Piano,

Orange & Robinson,

420 & 520..

And those aren't even counting Sky House, The Vue,  all the stuff up on Colonial or down at Orlando Health....

And let's not forget Society that is beginning to hint at the possibility of looking downright impressive.

Granted, they aren't soaring to the dizzying heavens, but they aren't rinky-dink either. And a few of them can actually be seen from I-4.

I'd hardly describe that as going backwards.

DTO has some big time competition that most cities don't have to contend with. 

It's not all about the height or being visible from I-4. It's about being a "real" city - a term I usually loathe but in this situation, it's fitting. OMA backing out of downtown and an important tower failing due to "FAA denial" is literally par for the course for a pseudo city like Orlando. How many projects are stalled or in limbo in the core of Orlando? OMA, this Pine St tower, Art 2 Park, Zoi House, CSP2, the Holocaust Museum, the Pulse Memorial, VMC, Under-I, and I'm sure more that I can't remember. And that's not even counting all of the empty lots downtown in prominent positions that are just sitting there, while every available crevice of space in St. Pete is being swallowed up and developed.

Maybe "going backwards" is not accurate, but every other city in the nation seeing explosive growth (Austin, Charlotte, Tampa, Seattle, Atlanta, Phoenix, Miami, and more) are similarly seeing explosive growth in their core regions. For a city experiencing this much growth, Orlando's core might as well be going backwards because it doesn't feel like it's progressing much, if at all.

[JFW657]

19 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

It's not all about the height or being visible from I-4. It's about being a "real" city - a term I usually loathe but in this situation, it's fitting. OMA backing out of downtown and an important tower failing due to "FAA denial" is literally par for the course for a pseudo city like Orlando. How many projects are stalled or in limbo in the core of Orlando? OMA, this Pine St tower, Art 2 Park, Zoi House, CSP2, the Holocaust Museum, the Pulse Memorial, VMC, Under-I, and I'm sure more that I can't remember. And that's not even counting all of the empty lots downtown in prominent positions that are just sitting there, while every available crevice of space in St. Pete is being swallowed up and developed.

Maybe "going backwards" is not accurate, but every other city in the nation seeing explosive growth (Austin, Charlotte, Tampa, Seattle, Atlanta, Phoenix, Miami, and more) are similarly seeing explosive growth in their core regions. For a city experiencing this much growth, Orlando's core might as well be going backwards because it doesn't feel like it's progressing much, if at all.

And not all of what you are decrying is bad as far as some are concerned.

Myself included.

Unbridled, explosive growth is not necessarily a good thing especially when it totally destroys old residential neighborhoods in which some level of preservation could be practiced.

Those of us who've been around here for longer than a couple of decades understand that better than younger people and relative newcomers who couldn't give a crap about neighborhood ambience and charm.

I still hope Zoi and this monstrosity never see the light of day.  

[prahaboheme]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

I don't buy the notion that DTO is "going backwards".

Development has been almost constant over the past what... five years?

Moderna,

Radius,

The Mohawk Piano,

Orange & Robinson,

420 & 520..

And those aren't even counting Sky House, The Vue,  all the stuff up on Colonial or down at Orlando Health....

And let's not forget Society that is beginning to hint at the possibility of looking downright impressive.

Granted, they aren't soaring to the dizzying heavens, but they aren't rinky-dink either. And a few of them can actually be seen from I-4.

I'd hardly describe that as going backwards.

DTO has some big time competition that most cities don't have to contend with. 

Look to the streets — not the sky.

You‘ll see that DTO is not it’s best self — and is worse than it was before all those aforementioned developments.

It can turn itself around but not if the same old chorus sings the same sad song about perceived progress.

Edited February 20, 2022 by prahaboheme

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Look to the streets — not the sky.

You‘ll see that DTO is not it’s best self — and is worse than it was before all those aforementioned developments.

It can turn itself around but not if the same old chorus sings the same sad song about perceived progress.

I don't disagree with any of that, but I think it is Uncommon who you should give that advice to.

He seems to be in favor of flattening anything and everything that gets in the way of these proposed massive towers.

I'm for preserving at least a little bit of the Eola South neighborhood by scaling back this project and preserving the St Regis. 

I'm also on record as hoping Zoi gets scaled back so the cool little restaurant building next door doesn't get razed.

Those are two minor buidings I know, but they are both vestiges of DTO's past and help to retain a little bit of originality rather than just one cold, concrete and glass tower base after another, each one indistinguishable from the rest.  

I'd like to see highrise buildings on those parcels, but with smaller footprints. 

[Uncommon]

4 hours ago, JFW657 said:

And not all of what you are decrying is bad as far as some are concerned.

Myself included.

Unbridled, explosive growth is not necessarily a good thing especially when it totally destroys old residential neighborhoods in which some level of preservation could be practiced.

Those of us who've been around here for longer than a couple of decades understand that better than younger people and relative newcomers who couldn't give a crap about neighborhood ambience and charm.

I still hope Zoi and this monstrosity never see the light of day.  

What are you going on about? Unbridled, explosive growth? Lol it’s called meeting the demands of an absurd housing crisis. We’re not talking about leveling neighborhoods. Give it a rest. Most of that “neighborhood ambiance and charm” you’re reminiscing about are just vacant lots. 

And what does your age have to with charm and ambience? I can assert the exact opposite and say an old person stuck in their ways and living in the nostalgia of the past can’t understand that one of the fastest growing cities needs to keep up with the times. 

36 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I don't disagree with any of that, but I think it is Uncommon who you should give that advice to.

He seems to be in favor of flattening anything and everything that gets in the way of these proposed massive towers.

I'm for preserving at least a little bit of the Eola South neighborhood by scaling back this project and preserving the St Regis. 

I'm also on record as hoping Zoi gets scaled back so the cool little restaurant building next door doesn't get razed.

Those are two minor buidings I know, but they are both vestiges of DTO's past and help to retain a little bit of originality rather than just one cold, concrete and glass tower base after another, each one indistinguishable from the rest.  

I'd like to see highrise buildings on those parcels, but with smaller footprints. 

Evidently, being around longer than a couple of decades has impacted your ability to read. Half of the projects I mentioned weren’t “proposed massive towers,” now were they? OMA, the Holocaust Museum, the Pulse Memorial, Art 2 Park, and Under-I have nothing to do with the “monstrosities” you seem keen on mentioning.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Uncommon

[JFW657]

3 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Wtf are you going on about? Unbridled, explosive growth? Lol it’s called meeting the demands of an absurd housing crisis. We’re not talking about leveling neighborhoods. Give it a rest. Most of that “neighborhood ambiance and charm” you’re reminiscing about are just vacant lots. 

And what does your age have to with charm and ambience? I can assert the exact opposite and say an old person stuck in their ways and living in the nostalgia of the past can’t understand that one of the fastest growing cities needs to keep up with the times. 

I was talking about saving one building... the St Regis. 

AFAIC they can buikd anything they want on vacant lots. 

But you did say the following....

Quote

but every other city in the nation seeing explosive growth (Austin, Charlotte, Tampa, Seattle, Atlanta, Phoenix, Miami, and more) are similarly seeing explosive growth in their core regions. For a city experiencing this much growth, Orlando's core might as well be going backwards because it doesn't feel like it's progressing much, if at all.

Sounds like you're pretty in favor of explosive growth to me.  

I'll just say that you should try not to allow opposing opinions about buildings rankle you.  

[JFW657]

19 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

What are you going on about? Unbridled, explosive growth? Lol it’s called meeting the demands of an absurd housing crisis. We’re not talking about leveling neighborhoods. Give it a rest. Most of that “neighborhood ambiance and charm” you’re reminiscing about are just vacant lots. 

And what does your age have to with charm and ambience? I can assert the exact opposite and say an old person stuck in their ways and living in the nostalgia of the past can’t understand that one of the fastest growing cities needs to keep up with the times. 

Evidently, being around longer than a couple of decades has impacted your ability to read. Half of the projects I mentioned weren’t “proposed massive towers,” now were they? OMA, the Holocaust Museum, the Pulse Memorial, Art 2 Park, and Under-I have nothing to do with the “monstrosities” you seem keen on mentioning.

And half of them were.

Your petty insults notwithstanding, you cannot backpedal your way around what you said in writing. 

Certainly some of the projects you mentioned are small scale, but you also brought up Lake & Pine, Zoi, CSP2, VMC.... all massive towers.

If you didn't want them being referred to in response to one of your posts, you should not have mentioned them to begin with.  

[Uncommon]

34 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I was talking about saving one building... the St Regis. 

AFAIC they can buikd anything they want on vacant lots. 

But you did say the following....

Sounds like you're pretty in favor of explosive growth to me.  

I'll just say that you should try not to allow opposing opinions about buildings rankle you.  

Say it with me: explosive population growth usually begets explosive housing growth and development. Not sure why you can’t comprehend this.

19 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

And half of them were.

Your petty insults notwithstanding, you cannot backpedal your way around what you said in writing. 

Certainly some of the projects you mentioned are small scale, but you also brought up Lake & Pine, Zoi, CSP2, VMC.... all massive towers.

If you didn't want them being referred to in response to one of your posts, you should not have mentioned them to begin with.  

Yeah, this is classic “old guy stuck in his ways” mentality. He literally says “Uncommon wants to flatten anything for massive towers” and when proven otherwise with examples of parks, museums, and large scale housing,  he retreats into “well you provided SOME examples of massive towers, therefore I’m half right.” Smh pathetic.

[JFW657]

13 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Say it with me: explosive population growth usually begets explosive housing growth and development. Not sure why you can’t comprehend this.

Meanwhile, as you rant and rave because everything you want hasn't happened, several residental towers have gone up in DTO with another huge develpment going up on Orange Ave. Not sure why you can't comprehend this. 

13 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Yeah, this is classic “old guy stuck in his ways” mentality. He literally says “Uncommon wants to flatten anything for massive towers” and when proven otherwise with examples of parks, museums, and large scale housing,  he retreats into “well you provided SOME examples of massive towers, therefore I’m half right.” Smh pathetic.

Classic "young guy thinks he knows everything but understands little" mentality jumps right to the tired, worn out "old guy" insults for lack of anything better.  

You said you wanted the Lake & Pine tower as well as the Zoi tower, to go up as designed, necessitating the flattening of anything in their way, including the the St Regis,, the beautiful old tree which already got flattened and the Italian restaurant which would also be flattened. 

Don't get all upset and angry just because I took you at your word. 

Shake your head at yourself.