Lake Ave. & Pine St. | 33-Story Mixed-Use [Proposed]

[Uncommon]

7 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Meanwhile, as you rant and rave because everything you want hasn't happened, several residental towers have gone up in DTO with another huge develpment going up on Orange Ave. Not sure why you can't comprehend this. 

Classic "young guy thinks he knows everything but understands little" mentality jumps right to the tired, worn out "old guy" insults for lack of anything better.  

You said you wanted the Lake & Pine tower as well as the Zoi tower, to go up as designed, necessitating the flattening of anything in their way, including the the St Regis,, the beautiful old tree which already got flattened and the Italian restaurant which would also be flattened. 

Don't get all upset and angry just because I took you at your word. 

Shake your head at yourself.  

Stubborn old man will go back and forth in perpetuity just to feel that he's "won," and therefore keeping his dignity intact. You can have this one if you want. I know you have nothing else better to do. Enjoy it.

Clearly we misunderstand each other. Boomer vs Millennial I guess. To make it clear, my gripe is many important projects (whether tall towers or a museum/park) don't get built in downtown Orlando because Orlando is a small-time city that caters to its tourists on I-drive. End of story.

Also, did you Google "what does smh mean?" and then proceed to force a reply to it in a desperate attempt to prove that you already knew what it meant? Lol that's what it seems like.

[Jernigan]

1 hour ago, Uncommon said:

Clearly we misunderstand each other. Boomer vs Millennial I guess. To make it clear, my gripe is many important projects (whether tall towers or a museum/park) don't get built in downtown Orlando because Orlando is a small-time city that caters to its tourists on I-drive. End of story.

Thats quite a take.   

[jliv]

7 hours ago, Uncommon said:

Clearly we misunderstand each other. Boomer vs Millennial I guess. 

Gen-X'er shrugging his shoulders at the generational divide on display 

[blt23]

It seems to me that this project is getting FAA height approval: 

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=476453198

[Uncommon]

40 minutes ago, jliv said:

Gen-X'er shrugging his shoulders at the generational divide on display 

You win the thread!

[IAmFloridaBorn]

1 hour ago, blt23 said:

It seems to me that this project is getting FAA height approval: 

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=476453198

Very recent completion date!

[jrs2]

On 2/20/2022 at 4:19 PM, Uncommon said:

It's not all about the height or being visible from I-4. It's about being a "real" city - a term I usually loathe but in this situation, it's fitting. OMA backing out of downtown and an important tower failing due to "FAA denial" is literally par for the course for a pseudo city like Orlando. How many projects are stalled or in limbo in the core of Orlando? OMA, this Pine St tower, Art 2 Park, Zoi House, CSP2, the Holocaust Museum, the Pulse Memorial, VMC, Under-I, and I'm sure more that I can't remember. And that's not even counting all of the empty lots downtown in prominent positions that are just sitting there, while every available crevice of space in St. Pete is being swallowed up and developed.

Maybe "going backwards" is not accurate, but every other city in the nation seeing explosive growth (Austin, Charlotte, Tampa, Seattle, Atlanta, Phoenix, Miami, and more) are similarly seeing explosive growth in their core regions. For a city experiencing this much growth, Orlando's core might as well be going backwards because it doesn't feel like it's progressing much, if at all.

Downtown Orlando is allergic to proposals that are in the 400' range.  Every decade or so, the Benedryl sets in, the city stops sneezing, and at least one is built.

The problem with downtown Orlando isn't Buddy et al.  It's the fact that Orlando is a small city.  I said this a million times and most everyone just glossed over the fact that the city limits in Orlando are something like only 250k and that's it.  Every one of those cities mentioned above have city populations that are greater than Orlando.  No one cares about the population of Lake/Clermont or Lake/Leesburg, or even Poinciana and Deltona, or Four Corners/East Polk.  There isn't enough money within the "city" itself.  

If you look at City Limits developments, you have to include Lake Nona Medical City.  Take those developments, the ones at Advent and Orlando Health, at Ivanhoe area, CV, and downtown, and Orlando does have a decent palette of developments comparatively.

Whatever the interplay is between City government, developments, and banks is, Orlando is not anywhere near the top of a pecking order compared to these other cities.  Whether what I wrote makes sense or not is irrelevant because it is absolutely quantifiable, and I already did this analysis on another thread a couple of years back, when I compared the city cores of Orlando to Miami, Tampa, Jax, Louisville, Atlanta, Nashville, Charlotte, etc., based solely on population of the city limits.  That comparison was showing comparisons of portfolios of the tallest buildings.

As for the empty lots, part of that is on the City government, and part is on the dynamic of what has been considered downtown and for how long.  If you recall, north of Colonial Drive, Cheney Place and the complex by the tracks were both built around 1998. Before that, there was absolutely nothing there at all for decades upon decades.  So you don't even have the evolving gentrification turned new developments even there that St. Pete is experiencing. 

Orlando is a small town parading like it is larger than it actually is.  And downtown is lucky to have finally been able to have impactful projects like that Travelodge turned Hilton and Radius to finish out that intersection.  The building boom of 2006, IMO was a false barometer of illustrating how mature downtown actually was.  Orlando was late to the boom game compared to Miami and Tampa.  The bust exposed that.  Orlando was fortunate to get what it got.  But people blamed the bust as being the only reason why it didn't get more projects started or done.  Those other busted proposals didn't get built because there weren't enough deposits.  Yeah, there were some rising construction costs involved, but that became a factor because they weren't getting the deposits fast enough.  So then the bust happened, and nothing in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, except for the Amway Center.   But ever since 2013, it's been a steady rollout of projects at a pretty consistent clip that are filling in the pre-boom gaps and post bust failed proposal gaps.

What's made people think that Orlando is larger than it actually is several things:  Disney fueled tourism, OIA, the OCCC, the Toll Road expanding network, and top retail developments.  I-4 has finally caught up, and Sunrail made outsiders think Orlando was more cosmo than it really was.  How can a city not be cosmopolitan if it is building expressways like they are going out of style?  Right?  Neiman Marcus, right?  Ferrari, right?  Well, those are all essential things a city and region need to grow.  Take Tampa, their Westshore office complex has been just that since the Late '80's.  Orlando's answer was Maitland Center- but that was in a different city.  The next big office park would be in Lake Mary in a different county.  Now at least office development is occurring within the city limits at Lake Nona, albeit over 15 miles away.  But that's just what Orlando is and has always been.  Even before Disney came Martin opened up shop off of SLR.  Downtown was just never considered a major city center until maybe when CNA opened up shop in the '70's followed by Copper Whopper/Amsouth and Atlantic Bank/First Union, and the two office buildings at Lake Eola.  That was it until DuPont and Sun Bank opened up shop and the later two office buildings (Gateway & "Olympia") north of Colonial (if those two hadn't ever opened, nobody would have ever considered the North Quarter anywhere near the CBD or even be considered downtown.  But those projects stretched the perceived northern limits of downtown.  The boom projects would have secured that perception with those twin Ivanhoe towers, Orlando Palace,  and 1000 N. Orange, but those projects weren't meant to be.  

They reconstructed I-4/275 in Tampa back in 1997-2000 era.  They redid I-95 in Miami before even that.  Orlando was way behind in development compared to those two cities.  I-4 is finishing up it's redevelopment in and around Orlando now, in 2022.  Um, that's like a 20 year difference with Tampa.  Wow.  The band aid to this was Sunrail opening up around 2013.  That is a project people viewed as making Orlando more "advanced" and cosmopolitan than Tampa with commuters numbering to the extent that would support such a system.  Well, that's a different story altogether.  Nevertheless, the hope with Sunrail was that it's presence would spawn project after project as an anti-bust catalyst of development and fast-track density.  Well, CSP and Crescent Central were built next to stations.  And now Society is u/c next to Lynx and CSP 2 is proposed and still alive next to CSS.  I think people also looked at the Lynx terminal and got wowed by that as well while we're on the subject (compared to Tampa's station).

Another factor is UCF.  Largest U in the US by population, and, the downtown campus.  So people see this and say, wow.  So now, you add UCF to the list comprising  OIA, Sunrail, Lynx Central, the Expressway System, top retail, etc.,  which have given the perception that it is larger than it actually is.  Add to this the ever growing campuses of Advent and Orlando Health just to the north and south of downtown.  Only big cities have these types of hospital campuses, right?  Also add to this the fact that downtown has a Publix and a nearby Earthfare.  Big downtowns have grocers, right?  All of these factors combined are why there is this expectation that Orlando downtown is perceivably not living up to compared to these other cities. But the one major thing Orlando lacks is old, old money.  We are fortunate the DPAC is named Dr. Phillips.  Oh, yeah, the DPAC is yet another factor.  And so is Brightline.  The hope is that all of these projects lure more development downtown. 

In conclusion, all of these projects are factors to get more development downtown.  it's coming, but not as fast as many of us would hope.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

10 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Downtown Orlando is allergic to proposals that are in the 400' range.  Every decade or so, the Benedryl sets in, the city stops sneezing, and at least one is built.

The problem with downtown Orlando isn't Buddy et al.  It's the fact that Orlando is a small city.  I said this a million times and most everyone just glossed over the fact that the city limits in Orlando are something like only 250k and that's it.  Every one of those cities mentioned above have city populations that are greater than Orlando.  No one cares about the population of Lake/Clermont or Lake/Leesburg, or even Poinciana and Deltona, or Four Corners/East Polk.  There isn't enough money within the "city" itself.  

If you look at City Limits developments, you have to include Lake Nona Medical City.  Take those developments, the ones at Advent and Orlando Health, at Ivanhoe area, CV, and downtown, and Orlando does have a decent palette of developments comparatively.

Whatever the interplay is between City government, developments, and banks is, Orlando is not anywhere near the top of a pecking order compared to these other cities.  Whether what I wrote makes sense or not is irrelevant because it is absolutely quantifiable, and I already did this analysis on another thread a couple of years back, when I compared the city cores of Orlando to Miami, Tampa, Jax, Louisville, Atlanta, Nashville, Charlotte, etc., based solely on population of the city limits.  That comparison was showing comparisons of portfolios of the tallest buildings.

As for the empty lots, part of that is on the City government, and part is on the dynamic of what has been considered downtown and for how long.  If you recall, north of Colonial Drive, Cheney Place and the complex by the tracks were both built around 1998. Before that, there was absolutely nothing there at all for decades upon decades.  So you don't even have the evolving gentrification turned new developments even there that St. Pete is experiencing. 

Orlando is a small town parading like it is larger than it actually is.  And downtown is lucky to have finally been able to have impactful projects like that Travelodge turned Hilton and Radius to finish out that intersection.  The building boom of 2006, IMO was a false barometer of illustrating how mature downtown actually was.  Orlando was late to the boom game compared to Miami and Tampa.  The bust exposed that.  Orlando was fortunate to get what it got.  But people blamed the bust as being the only reason why it didn't get more projects started or done.  Those other busted proposals didn't get built because there weren't enough deposits.  Yeah, there were some rising construction costs involved, but that became a factor because they weren't getting the deposits fast enough.  So then the bust happened, and nothing in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, except for the Amway Center.   But ever since 2013, it's been a steady rollout of projects at a pretty consistent clip that are filling in the pre-boom gaps and post bust failed proposal gaps.

What's made people think that Orlando is larger than it actually is several things:  Disney fueled tourism, OIA, the OCCC, the Toll Road expanding network, and top retail developments.  I-4 has finally caught up, and Sunrail made outsiders think Orlando was more cosmo than it really was.  How can a city not be cosmopolitan if it is building expressways like they are going out of style?  Right?  Neiman Marcus, right?  Ferrari, right?  Well, those are all essential things a city and region need to grow.  Take Tampa, their Westshore office complex has been just that since the Late '80's.  Orlando's answer was Maitland Center- but that was in a different city.  The next big office park would be in Lake Mary in a different county.  Now at least office development is occurring within the city limits at Lake Nona, albeit over 15 miles away.  But that's just what Orlando is and has always been.  Even before Disney came Martin opened up shop off of SLR.  Downtown was just never considered a major city center until maybe when CNA opened up shop in the '70's followed by Copper Whopper/Amsouth and Atlantic Bank/First Union, and the two office buildings at Lake Eola.  That was it until DuPont and Sun Bank opened up shop and the later two office buildings (Gateway & "Olympia") north of Colonial (if those two hadn't ever opened, nobody would have ever considered the North Quarter anywhere near the CBD or even be considered downtown.  But those projects stretched the perceived northern limits of downtown.  The boom projects would have secured that perception with those twin Ivanhoe towers, Orlando Palace,  and 1000 N. Orange, but those projects weren't meant to be.  

They reconstructed I-4/275 in Tampa back in 1997-2000 era.  They redid I-95 in Miami before even that.  Orlando was way behind in development compared to those two cities.  I-4 is finishing up it's redevelopment in and around Orlando now, in 2022.  Um, that's like a 20 year difference with Tampa.  Wow.  The band aid to this was Sunrail opening up around 2013.  That is a project people viewed as making Orlando more "advanced" and cosmopolitan than Tampa with commuters numbering to the extent that would support such a system.  Well, that's a different story altogether.  Nevertheless, the hope with Sunrail was that it's presence would spawn project after project as an anti-bust catalyst of development and fast-track density.  Well, CSP and Crescent Central were built next to stations.  And now Society is u/c next to Lynx and CSP 2 is proposed and still alive next to CSS.  I think people also looked at the Lynx terminal and got wowed by that as well while we're on the subject (compared to Tampa's station).

Another factor is UCF.  Largest U in the US by population, and, the downtown campus.  So people see this and say, wow.  So now, you add UCF to the list comprising  OIA, Sunrail, Lynx Central, the Expressway System, top retail, etc.,  which have given the perception that it is larger than it actually is.  Add to this the ever growing campuses of Advent and Orlando Health just to the north and south of downtown.  Only big cities have these types of hospital campuses, right?  Also add to this the fact that downtown has a Publix and a nearby Earthfare.  Big downtowns have grocers, right?  All of these factors combined are why there is this expectation that Orlando downtown is perceivably not living up to compared to these other cities. But the one major thing Orlando lacks is old, old money.  We are fortunate the DPAC is named Dr. Phillips.  Oh, yeah, the DPAC is yet another factor.  And so is Brightline.  The hope is that all of these projects lure more development downtown. 

In conclusion, all of these projects are factors to get more development downtown.  it's coming, but not as fast as many of us would hope.

I hate that I have to accept this truth. Of all my research and watching other cities ( Austin, Nash, Tampa, Lauderdale, Miami, St. Petersburg, West Palm, Atlanta, Durham, Dallas, San Antonio, Etc.) I couldn't understand why Orlando wasn't growing vertically and more urban as fast. Then I found it to just simply be money. Orlando has no big business money. It's why we don't have sports teams. Disney is here but they don't give a damn about the city and (that's not a bad thing) . 

 

One day. I'm 30 now. 2006-2008 we're exciting times. 

 

And I also believe the population estimate for 2022 is 315, 000 or so city proper. 

I figure as long as I am here in Orlando, it'll always be 4 story apartments and parking garages.

[jrs2]

8 minutes ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

I hate that I have to accept this truth. Of all my research and watching other cities ( Austin, Nash, Tampa, Lauderdale, Miami, St. Petersburg, West Palm, Atlanta, Durham, Dallas, San Antonio, Etc.) I couldn't understand why Orlando wasn't growing vertically and more urban as fast. Then I found it to just simply be money. Orlando has no big business money. It's why we don't have sports teams. Disney is here but they don't give a damn about the city and (that's not a bad thing) . 

 

One day. I'm 30 now. 2006-2008 we're exciting times. 

 

And I also believe the population estimate for 2022 is 315, 000 or so city proper. 

I figure as long as I am here in Orlando, it'll always be 4 story apartments and parking garages.

Orlando hit 300k population?  wow.   Miami and Atlanta hit that number back in the early '80's or earlier...by comparison... same with Louisville...  I bet you Laurette Park in Medical City has a lot to do with that population jump.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

8 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Orlando hit 300k population?  wow.   Miami and Atlanta hit that number back in the early '80's or earlier...by comparison... same with Louisville...  I bet you Laurette Park in Medical City has a lot to do with that population jump.

Population is always tricky when trying to figure out which that's to actually believe. But I can definitely see Lake Nona in the likes of all these four-story apartment buildings popping up every which way 

[Uncommon]

12 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Downtown Orlando is allergic to proposals that are in the 400' range.  Every decade or so, the Benedryl sets in, the city stops sneezing, and at least one is built.

The problem with downtown Orlando isn't Buddy et al.  It's the fact that Orlando is a small city.  I said this a million times and most everyone just glossed over the fact that the city limits in Orlando are something like only 250k and that's it.  Every one of those cities mentioned above have city populations that are greater than Orlando.  No one cares about the population of Lake/Clermont or Lake/Leesburg, or even Poinciana and Deltona, or Four Corners/East Polk.  There isn't enough money within the "city" itself.  

If you look at City Limits developments, you have to include Lake Nona Medical City.  Take those developments, the ones at Advent and Orlando Health, at Ivanhoe area, CV, and downtown, and Orlando does have a decent palette of developments comparatively.

Whatever the interplay is between City government, developments, and banks is, Orlando is not anywhere near the top of a pecking order compared to these other cities.  Whether what I wrote makes sense or not is irrelevant because it is absolutely quantifiable, and I already did this analysis on another thread a couple of years back, when I compared the city cores of Orlando to Miami, Tampa, Jax, Louisville, Atlanta, Nashville, Charlotte, etc., based solely on population of the city limits.  That comparison was showing comparisons of portfolios of the tallest buildings.

As for the empty lots, part of that is on the City government, and part is on the dynamic of what has been considered downtown and for how long.  If you recall, north of Colonial Drive, Cheney Place and the complex by the tracks were both built around 1998. Before that, there was absolutely nothing there at all for decades upon decades.  So you don't even have the evolving gentrification turned new developments even there that St. Pete is experiencing. 

Orlando is a small town parading like it is larger than it actually is.  And downtown is lucky to have finally been able to have impactful projects like that Travelodge turned Hilton and Radius to finish out that intersection.  The building boom of 2006, IMO was a false barometer of illustrating how mature downtown actually was.  Orlando was late to the boom game compared to Miami and Tampa.  The bust exposed that.  Orlando was fortunate to get what it got.  But people blamed the bust as being the only reason why it didn't get more projects started or done.  Those other busted proposals didn't get built because there weren't enough deposits.  Yeah, there were some rising construction costs involved, but that became a factor because they weren't getting the deposits fast enough.  So then the bust happened, and nothing in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, except for the Amway Center.   But ever since 2013, it's been a steady rollout of projects at a pretty consistent clip that are filling in the pre-boom gaps and post bust failed proposal gaps.

What's made people think that Orlando is larger than it actually is several things:  Disney fueled tourism, OIA, the OCCC, the Toll Road expanding network, and top retail developments.  I-4 has finally caught up, and Sunrail made outsiders think Orlando was more cosmo than it really was.  How can a city not be cosmopolitan if it is building expressways like they are going out of style?  Right?  Neiman Marcus, right?  Ferrari, right?  Well, those are all essential things a city and region need to grow.  Take Tampa, their Westshore office complex has been just that since the Late '80's.  Orlando's answer was Maitland Center- but that was in a different city.  The next big office park would be in Lake Mary in a different county.  Now at least office development is occurring within the city limits at Lake Nona, albeit over 15 miles away.  But that's just what Orlando is and has always been.  Even before Disney came Martin opened up shop off of SLR.  Downtown was just never considered a major city center until maybe when CNA opened up shop in the '70's followed by Copper Whopper/Amsouth and Atlantic Bank/First Union, and the two office buildings at Lake Eola.  That was it until DuPont and Sun Bank opened up shop and the later two office buildings (Gateway & "Olympia") north of Colonial (if those two hadn't ever opened, nobody would have ever considered the North Quarter anywhere near the CBD or even be considered downtown.  But those projects stretched the perceived northern limits of downtown.  The boom projects would have secured that perception with those twin Ivanhoe towers, Orlando Palace,  and 1000 N. Orange, but those projects weren't meant to be.  

They reconstructed I-4/275 in Tampa back in 1997-2000 era.  They redid I-95 in Miami before even that.  Orlando was way behind in development compared to those two cities.  I-4 is finishing up it's redevelopment in and around Orlando now, in 2022.  Um, that's like a 20 year difference with Tampa.  Wow.  The band aid to this was Sunrail opening up around 2013.  That is a project people viewed as making Orlando more "advanced" and cosmopolitan than Tampa with commuters numbering to the extent that would support such a system.  Well, that's a different story altogether.  Nevertheless, the hope with Sunrail was that it's presence would spawn project after project as an anti-bust catalyst of development and fast-track density.  Well, CSP and Crescent Central were built next to stations.  And now Society is u/c next to Lynx and CSP 2 is proposed and still alive next to CSS.  I think people also looked at the Lynx terminal and got wowed by that as well while we're on the subject (compared to Tampa's station).

Another factor is UCF.  Largest U in the US by population, and, the downtown campus.  So people see this and say, wow.  So now, you add UCF to the list comprising  OIA, Sunrail, Lynx Central, the Expressway System, top retail, etc.,  which have given the perception that it is larger than it actually is.  Add to this the ever growing campuses of Advent and Orlando Health just to the north and south of downtown.  Only big cities have these types of hospital campuses, right?  Also add to this the fact that downtown has a Publix and a nearby Earthfare.  Big downtowns have grocers, right?  All of these factors combined are why there is this expectation that Orlando downtown is perceivably not living up to compared to these other cities. But the one major thing Orlando lacks is old, old money.  We are fortunate the DPAC is named Dr. Phillips.  Oh, yeah, the DPAC is yet another factor.  And so is Brightline.  The hope is that all of these projects lure more development downtown. 

In conclusion, all of these projects are factors to get more development downtown.  it's coming, but not as fast as many of us would hope.

There's a lot I agree with and just a few things to consider.

The first thing is city limits population having an impact on development growth downtown or otherwise. City limits population is almost worthless. It wouldn't matter if Orlando annexed the dozens of neighborhoods near the core of the city and swelled to 600,000 people. The downtown would still be for it is today. San Antonio, Jacksonville, OKC, Louisville, and Indianapolis all have large city limits population and core development is lacking as well. I think it's about demand, plain and simple. There's not that much demand for housing and office space downtown. All of the demand is in Lake Nona, near the tourist area, and spread out throughout the metro.

I also do think Orlando is cosmopolitan, if we're taking the definition of a place where a great deal of cultural variety exists. What I would agree with though is Orlando is not a major city. It feels like it desperately wants to be, but it's more so an emerging masquerading as a metropolis. What it's missing is density and public transportation. Until then, it will continue to be just a mid-level city.

I feel like what's hurting Orlando, and many new cities in general, is sprawl. If downtown was the centralized location where all things converge like San Francisco or Boston, then it would look much more like a big city, but the amount of sprawl will hold this region back forever.

[jack]

On 2/20/2022 at 1:56 PM, prahaboheme said:

Downtown Orlando  does not offer what Tampa and St Pete offer — fantastic views of one of the country’s most pristine bay shores. Orlando is at a geographic disadvantage in that regard.

Why would some buy into a luxury high rise downtown when a similar price can give you so much more  near downtown on a lake or a tree lined street?

This has always made me wonder if the geographic center of central Florida was actually Sanford, that does actually have a legitimate river front, would it compete with the aforementioned places such as St Pete?

This point doesn’t excuse downtown Orlando from devolving into the trash can it’s becoming — that’s a willing city hall standing by and doing nothing. 

We will always be disadvantaged in regards to high rise views. As a realtor told me in 2009, "maybe building condos in the middle of the state was not a good idea". 

At one point, Sanford was the main city for central Florida for obvious reasons. Too bad it did not stick. 

On 2/18/2022 at 10:33 PM, nite owℓ said:

The fact that multifamily projects are still struggling to get off the ground despite a "housing shortage" is baffling to me.

It could be bad assumptions. i.e, costs numbers are too high compared to market rents. 

[jack]

17 hours ago, blt23 said:

It seems to me that this project is getting FAA height approval: 

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=476453198

So the FAA approval was BS! thanks for the research. 

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, Uncommon said:

There's a lot I agree with and just a few things to consider.

The first thing is city limits population having an impact on development growth downtown or otherwise. City limits population is almost worthless. It wouldn't matter if Orlando annexed the dozens of neighborhoods near the core of the city and swelled to 600,000 people. The downtown would still be for it is today. San Antonio, Jacksonville, OKC, Louisville, and Indianapolis all have large city limits population and core development is lacking as well. I think it's about demand, plain and simple. There's not that much demand for housing and office space downtown. All of the demand is in Lake Nona, near the tourist area, and spread out throughout the metro.

I also do think Orlando is cosmopolitan, if we're taking the definition of a place where a great deal of cultural variety exists. What I would agree with though is Orlando is not a major city. It feels like it desperately wants to be, but it's more so an emerging masquerading as a metropolis. What it's missing is density and public transportation. Until then, it will continue to be just a mid-level city.

I feel like what's hurting Orlando, and many new cities in general, is sprawl. If downtown was the centralized location where all things converge like San Francisco or Boston, then it would look much more like a big city, but the amount of sprawl will hold this region back forever.

yes, I agree that Orlando is a bit cosmopolitan; not to sell it short.

as for the city limits thing...it's too late IMO...annexing neighborhoods now to boost the city population means nothing versus if that population was already there back in, say, the 1920's, '30's, and '40's.  Because the more people back then meant more jobs and more employers and more industry, hence, a larger city, and a larger downtown, because that's when downtowns were growing historically and from that evolved and modernized to what you see today around the US. 

Chicago has sprawl too, but it's downtown is also growing gangbusters.  The difference is Chicago as a city center grew way back during the era I coin as "when it mattered."  I may be wrong about that label, but it seems that those cities that were big back then are all larger than Orlando downtown even if their metros aren't.

How do you fix it?  Just keep chugging along and luring more and more offices and residential developments downtown.  I'm not sure who's fault it is, but Advent building a HQ in Maitland/Altamonte in the form of several rather large low rise buildings instead of a single tall downtown skyscraper was a major opportunity lost.  Disney bringing 2,500 employees here to Lake Nona is another.  I'm surprised downtown has what it has in spite of all this...

[IAmFloridaBorn]

2 hours ago, jack said:

So the FAA approval was BS! thanks for the research. 

What do you mean it was BS?

[GregoryMCSE]

We should dismantle downtown Orlando. We are doomed!   Doomed!!
 

I keep seeing Tampa being mentioned in this thread. I was born Tampa and I visit frequently.  Downtown Tampa is not super walkable or livable.  I like the Mercado area and Ybor City but let’s not pretend Tampa has a vibrant livable downtown…. I mean c’mon people.   
 

Tampa doesn’t even have commuter rail.  Give me a break.  

[jack]

2 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

What do you mean it was BS?

The project was not delayed because of the FAA which a previous poster said. The FAA approved the height. 

[Uncommon]

4 hours ago, GregoryMCSE said:

We should dismantle downtown Orlando. We are doomed!   Doomed!!
 

I keep seeing Tampa being mentioned in this thread. I was born Tampa and I visit frequently.  Downtown Tampa is not super walkable or livable.  I like the Mercado area and Ybor City but let’s not pretend Tampa has a vibrant livable downtown…. I mean c’mon people.   
 

Tampa doesn’t even have commuter rail.  Give me a break.  

And yet, Tampa is seeing billions in development downtown and its downtown is vastly improving while Orlando's is barely keeping its head above water. Tampa's downtown is cleaner, safer, far less homeless, more restaurants, and of course views of the water.

Tampa may not have commuter rail but it does have the trolley and water taxis that serves the downtown area better than the Sunrail can ever dream.

Now and into the future, give me downtown Tampa 100/100 times over downtown Orlando.

[dcluley98]

"Tampa's downtown is cleaner, safer, far less homeless, more restaurants, " 

uhhhh. . . 

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, Uncommon said:

And yet, Tampa is seeing billions in development downtown and its downtown is vastly improving while Orlando's is barely keeping its head above water. Tampa's downtown is cleaner, safer, far less homeless, more restaurants, and of course views of the water.

Tampa may not have commuter rail but it does have the trolley and water taxis that serves the downtown area better than the Sunrail can ever dream.

Now and into the future, give me downtown Tampa 100/100 times over downtown Orlando.

I will say this about downtown Tampa:  They have the convention center, Harbor Island, the Port, the Aquarium, the Tampa River, UT and it's cool architecture, the Streetcar, Ybor nearby, and convention class hotels.  Tampa General is on an island (Davis).  The Waterside development, thus far, the first four buildings, are first class in design.  The only thing built in Orlando rivaling those designs is The Wave.  Tampa is really cool.

What Orlando has got going for it downtown is Lake Eola Park and the stretches of retail/bars/eateries along E. Wash/Summerlin/Eola Drive, Central, Pine, Court, Wall St., Orange, Magnolia, Washington, and Church.  There are just way too many places to go out in downtown Orlando.  And it has always been that way ever since CSS was developed.  When Parliament House opens up at the former City Arts Factory location, that will infuse even more nightlife downtown.  

I have been resigned to the fact that DTO will not get a supertall skyscraper ever.  But, the thing that DTO has going for it is the enormity of patronage from the nightlife crowd, mixed in with the NBA crowd, the MLS crowd, and the Arts crowd.

There are too many homeless people, though, without a doubt.

[JFW657]

4 hours ago, Uncommon said:

And yet, Tampa is seeing billions in development downtown and its downtown is vastly improving while Orlando's is barely keeping its head above water. Tampa's downtown is cleaner, safer, far less homeless, more restaurants, and of course views of the water.

Tampa may not have commuter rail but it does have the trolley and water taxis that serves the downtown area better than the Sunrail can ever dream.

Now and into the future, give me downtown Tampa 100/100 times over downtown Orlando.

 

   

[Uncommon]

6 hours ago, JFW657 said:

 

   

From your lips to God's ears.

[leondecollao]

So strange to see people on this thread talking about Orlando being a small town or about the population within city limits as if that matters at all. 
 

Orlando is the 22nd largest MSA per the latest census data (with a population of 2.6m) and is growing faster than any of the 21 MSA’s above it. We will be a top twenty city very soon. 
 

Orlando is not a small town guys. 
 

We don’t have any skyscrapers because there is zero reason to build any.  I may be wrong but I believe Darden is the only Fortune 500 company in the city. Heck, the whole state of Florida only has 19 Fortune 500 companies last I checked.  Without a large influx of corporate money into this town, any major office space builds would shock me. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by leondecollao

[JFW657]

Personally, I don't get the desire to see Orlando become Miami or even a smaller version of it.

I'd like to see DTO retain a decent amount of it's old fashioned, smaller town ambience.

To me, that entails keeping smaller, architecturally interesting older buildings in our downtown residential neighborhoods, like the St. Regis in Eola South. And of course, keeping as many old oaks as possible.

One or two more 30 story buildings over around Orange Ave or I-4 would be just fine. Maybe a few 20 - 25 story towers up around North Quarter.

Whatever.

But I personally would not want to see DTO turn into a concrete and glass wasteland. 

[GregoryMCSE]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Personally, I don't get the desire to see Orlando become Miami or even a smaller version of it.

I'd like to see DTO retain a decent amount of it's old fashioned, smaller town ambience.

To me, that entails keeping smaller, architecturally interesting older buildings in our downtown residential neighborhoods, like the St. Regis in Eola South. And of course, keeping as many old oaks as possible.

One or two more 30 story buildings over around Orange Ave or I-4 would be just fine. Maybe a few 20 - 25 story towers up around North Quarter.

Whatever.

But I personally would not want to see DTO turn into a concrete and glass wasteland. 

Exactly. DTO is walkable.  Good places to eat and drink. Nice performing arts center.  Orlando is distinctive. I am all for a couple more 400 ft towers if they well placed and don’t knock down any historical buildings.