Lake Ave. & Pine St. | 33-Story Mixed-Use [Proposed]

[jrs2]

15 hours ago, leondecollao said:

So strange to see people on this thread talking about Orlando being a small town or about the population within city limits as if that matters at all. 
 

Orlando is the 22nd largest MSA per the latest census data (with a population of 2.6m) and is growing faster than any of the 21 MSA’s above it. We will be a top twenty city very soon. 
 

Orlando is not a small town guys. 
 

We don’t have any skyscrapers because there is zero reason to build any.  I may be wrong but I believe Darden is the only Fortune 500 company in the city. Heck, the whole state of Florida only has 19 Fortune 500 companies last I checked.  Without a large influx of corporate money into this town, any major office space builds would shock me. 

ok.  you just made a bunch of statements that contradict each other:  "The city limits population doesn't matter at all.  Orlando is not a small town.  We don't have any skyscrapers because there is zero reason to build any. Darden is the only fortune 500 company in the city.  It would be shocking if any major office builds occurred without a major influx of corporate money."

So, why is it strange about the small town talk?  You just confirmed that Orlando is a small town.  Big cities don't have this problem.  

Before you state that city limits population doesn't matter, compare a dozen cities who's MSA's are smaller than Orlando's yet their city limits are greater, and you will see more corporate presence, taller downtown skyscrapers, and more historically built up downtown cores.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

15 hours ago, leondecollao said:

So strange to see people on this thread talking about Orlando being a small town or about the population within city limits as if that matters at all. 
 

Orlando is the 22nd largest MSA per the latest census data (with a population of 2.6m) and is growing faster than any of the 21 MSA’s above it. We will be a top twenty city very soon. 
 

Orlando is not a small town guys. 
 

We don’t have any skyscrapers because there is zero reason to build any.  I may be wrong but I believe Darden is the only Fortune 500 company in the city. Heck, the whole state of Florida only has 19 Fortune 500 companies last I checked.  Without a large influx of corporate money into this town, any major office space builds would shock me. 

Orlando is a small city in a midsized metro with a large reputation.

 

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Orlando is a small city in a midsized metro with a large reputation.

 

well stated!  I should've just consulted you first and it would have saved me essays of posts!

I think people mistake the term small with bad. it's not.  it just is what it is.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

5 hours ago, jrs2 said:

well stated!  I should've just consulted you first and it would have saved me essays of posts!

I think people mistake the term small with bad. it's not.  it just is what it is.

Your posts are appreciated sir. 

[leondecollao]

8 hours ago, jrs2 said:

ok.  you just made a bunch of statements that contradict each other:  "The city limits population doesn't matter at all.  Orlando is not a small town.  We don't have any skyscrapers because there is zero reason to build any. Darden is the only fortune 500 company in the city.  It would be shocking if any major office builds occurred without a major influx of corporate money."

So, why is it strange about the small town talk?  You just confirmed that Orlando is a small town.  Big cities don't have this problem.  

Before you state that city limits population doesn't matter, compare a dozen cities who's MSA's are smaller than Orlando's yet their city limits are greater, and you will see more corporate presence, taller downtown skyscrapers, and more historically built up downtown cores.

I confirmed Orlando is a small town? Huh? It’s a verifiable fact that we are a large city and growing faster than any other large city in the whole country. I don’t get the small town talk at all. 
 

The reason we don’t have any corporate presence to speak of is because we lack history. We literally grew from a cow town to 2.6m in 50 years. It’s the same reason Florida only has 19 Fortune 500 companies. It’s easy to forget but this whole state was swamp backwater until relatively recently. As one example, we didn’t even have a single major league team in any sport until the 60s with the dolphins and we didn’t have a single MLB team until 1993. 
 

yeah, a city like Pittsburgh (just one random examples but there’s a lot similar examples) might have more corporate presence but it’s not about city limits, it’s because companies like Mellon, PPG, PNC, Kraft all grew up with the city over the last two hundred years. In order for us to to have those type of local corporates, we’ll need to wait another 100 years or convince some to move here. 
 

Last point I’ll make - I LOVE how quaint our downtown has managed to stay. I don’t ever want to see our downtown turn into the hell hole that is Houston, for one example. 

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, leondecollao said:

I confirmed Orlando is a small town? Huh? It’s a verifiable fact that we are a large city and growing faster than any other large city in the whole country. I don’t get the small town talk at all. 
 

The reason we don’t have any corporate presence to speak of is because we lack history. We literally grew from a cow town to 2.6m in 50 years. It’s the same reason Florida only has 19 Fortune 500 companies. It’s easy to forget but this whole state was swamp backwater until relatively recently. As one example, we didn’t even have a single major league team in any sport until the 60s with the dolphins and we didn’t have a single MLB team until 1993. 
 

yeah, a city like Pittsburgh (just one random examples but there’s a lot similar examples) might have more corporate presence but it’s not about city limits, it’s because companies like Mellon, PPG, PNC, Kraft all grew up with the city over the last two hundred years. In order for us to to have those type of local corporates, we’ll need to wait another 100 years or convince some to move here. 
 

Last point I’ll make - I LOVE how quaint our downtown has managed to stay. I don’t ever want to see our downtown turn into the hell hole that is Houston, for one example. 

Some very good points!!!   

[jrs2]

13 hours ago, leondecollao said:

I confirmed Orlando is a small town? Huh? It’s a verifiable fact that we are a large city and growing faster than any other large city in the whole country. I don’t get the small town talk at all. 
 

The reason we don’t have any corporate presence to speak of is because we lack history. We literally grew from a cow town to 2.6m in 50 years. It’s the same reason Florida only has 19 Fortune 500 companies. It’s easy to forget but this whole state was swamp backwater until relatively recently. As one example, we didn’t even have a single major league team in any sport until the 60s with the dolphins and we didn’t have a single MLB team until 1993. 
 

yeah, a city like Pittsburgh (just one random examples but there’s a lot similar examples) might have more corporate presence but it’s not about city limits, it’s because companies like Mellon, PPG, PNC, Kraft all grew up with the city over the last two hundred years. In order for us to to have those type of local corporates, we’ll need to wait another 100 years or convince some to move here. 
 

Last point I’ll make - I LOVE how quaint our downtown has managed to stay. I don’t ever want to see our downtown turn into the hell hole that is Houston, for one example. 

you are inter changing "city" with "CSA" when referencing Orlando's size. The "city's" size (city limits population) is what I've been focusing on, and that doesn't only have to do with the present, rather, it has to do with the past.

Your Pittsburgh example- I touched on that notion already in those posts where I had stated that the City of Orlando was small "when it mattered," and we see the results of that today.  

I can't state it any more clearly than that or how IAmFloridaBorn stated it in one brilliant sentence above in this thread.

[smileguy]

On 2/23/2022 at 11:03 PM, GregoryMCSE said:

Exactly. DTO is walkable.  Good places to eat and drink. Nice performing arts center.  Orlando is distinctive. I am all for a couple more 400 ft towers if they well placed and don’t knock down any historical buildings.  

I walked from a coffee meeting at Deeply this morning to pick up some lunch at Publix before heading into the office. The streets and Lake Eola were lively with a mix of students, professionals, tourists, joggers, etc.  Not on a weekend or special event,  but on a Monday morning.

[AndyPok1]

It has less to do with being small vs large and more about youth vs age.  Orlando has only become a "real" city in the past 30-40 years.  Whereas other cities have had time to grow.  As I've said numerous times, there are neighborhoods in Parramore, Wadeview, Curry Ford, and SoDo that are less than 2 miles from City Hall that are Unincorporated Orange County.  City population is meaningless in literally every context except one.

I don't care about city size, but I do care about property tax.  As far as I'm concerned those poors that live in the county should enjoy their septic tanks and shouldn't be allowed at Lake Eola.  Annex yourself in, give us your extra property tax, or lose the benefits.

(I say this partially in jest, but the fact that people enjoy the benefits of urban core living while bragging that they are saving on taxes piss me off.  Those of you way out east/south, you're fine.  Drive into the Farmers Market whenever you want.)

[jrs2]

16 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

It has less to do with being small vs large and more about youth vs age.  Orlando has only become a "real" city in the past 30-40 years.  Whereas other cities have had time to grow.  As I've said numerous times, there are neighborhoods in Parramore, Wadeview, Curry Ford, and SoDo that are less than 2 miles from City Hall that are Unincorporated Orange County.  City population is meaningless in literally every context except one.

I don't care about city size, but I do care about property tax.  As far as I'm concerned those poors that live in the county should enjoy their septic tanks and shouldn't be allowed at Lake Eola.  Annex yourself in, give us your extra property tax, or lose the benefits.

(I say this partially in jest, but the fact that people enjoy the benefits of urban core living while bragging that they are saving on taxes piss me off.  Those of you way out east/south, you're fine.  Drive into the Farmers Market whenever you want.)

I agree to a point.  The age issue is tied directly into size, in that, when I say, for example, "when it mattered," it's like the analogy to a new smaller NFL franchise is trying to land a top talented roster but they wait and  start signing players in the latest rounds of the draft and forego Rounds 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, after other teams already got the pick of the litter.  Because Orlando was so small back then, other cities that were larger were landing or developing those companies and/or industries that gave them what evolved into their current economic footprint, with companies' presence Orlando wishes it had (which started this discussion).   It cannot be fixed.  The only way it could be "bandaged" is with other new homegrown or relocated companies/ industries. 

The DuPont thing would have been huge, but that was short lived.  The Hartford left downtown. CNA left downtown.  Premiere America Trade never moved into The Plaza as planned.  Dynetech scrapped the Aspire tower project and Lincoln took over; they never moved in.  There were moves that were planned over the decades but they failed.  Advent didn't open up shop downtown; neither did Darden.  On the flip side, Red Lobster moved downtown.  TD Home Mort moved downtown.  EA just moved downtown.  CNL is still downtown.  Truist, BOA, Chase, Wells Fargo, 5th Third, Southstate, HBC, are downtown.  In large cities, they can absorb the attrition and non-moves DTO has seen better, but IMO DTO really needed all of those companies to come through so that it could build off of those, to make up for it's young age.  Instead it seems like a constant struggle to maintain as opposed to increasing these companies' presence. 

I think City Hall knew this all too well, and by having Medical City within the city limits, they have attracted companies and industries that DTO might never have gotten.  Burnham was a loss, but KPM&G and Disney, UCF Med School and HCA hospital, UF, Guidewell, J&J HPI, Signature Flight Support, the VA, Nemours, are all within the city limits.  And, Architectonica designed The Wave.  People here don't like the 'burbs, but Medical City gives Orlando a reputation that it's downtown wishes it had.  Maybe there will be a marketing fusion between the two in the future if The City markets itself better or differently.

[codypet]

19 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

It has less to do with being small vs large and more about youth vs age.  Orlando has only become a "real" city in the past 30-40 years.  Whereas other cities have had time to grow.  As I've said numerous times, there are neighborhoods in Parramore, Wadeview, Curry Ford, and SoDo that are less than 2 miles from City Hall that are Unincorporated Orange County.  City population is meaningless in literally every context except one.

I don't care about city size, but I do care about property tax.  As far as I'm concerned those poors that live in the county should enjoy their septic tanks and shouldn't be allowed at Lake Eola.  Annex yourself in, give us your extra property tax, or lose the benefits.

(I say this partially in jest, but the fact that people enjoy the benefits of urban core living while bragging that they are saving on taxes piss me off.  Those of you way out east/south, you're fine.  Drive into the Farmers Market whenever you want.)

I'm laughing to myself because I know whose neighborhood you're referencing.  Situated between yours and mine.

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, codypet said:

I'm laughing to myself because I know whose neighborhood you're referencing.  Situated between yours and mine.

I think I do too. 

And I find it hilarious.   

[jliv]

Exactly. DTO is walkable.  Good places to eat and drink. Nice performing arts center.  Orlando is distinctive. I am all for a couple more 400 ft towers if they well placed and don’t knock down any historical buildings.  

I’ve lived all over the world, and it’s always nice to come “home” and appreciate Orlando for what it is. The surrounding sprawl is quite dreadful, but it’s got good bones in its core. I’d like for the restaurant scene to up its game a bit around downtown (start with removing the TVs). Make people feel a little guilty for wearing shorts for a night out. I know it’s Florida, but you can dress up a little when you’re out for dinner!


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[GregoryMCSE]

I left Orlando for about 15 years. Lived in Atlanta and out west.  I know some people don’t see Orlando as a big city but it is.  Does it compare with major cities like NYC, Atl, Boston, Miami and the rest? No. Orlando has other charms though.  A nice walkable and livable downtown. Vastly improved transportation.  Decent culture and sports.  A major university.    No huge crime areas.  I think it really has improved over the last 20 years.  The sprawl is a major flaw.  We are paving over to much green space. We need to preserve historic buildings. Sunrail needs to be expanded and it needs an east west line or two.    These things are doable.  We just have have to make it happen.  

[IAmFloridaBorn]

I don't think this project happens. They have to buy up a lot of those little homes right in front of City Tower and I don't think that has happened.

1 hour ago, GregoryMCSE said:

I left Orlando for about 15 years. Lived in Atlanta and out west.  I know some people don’t see Orlando as a big city but it is.  Does it compare with major cities like NYC, Atl, Boston, Miami and the rest? No. Orlando has other charms though.  A nice walkable and livable downtown. Vastly improved transportation.  Decent culture and sports.  A major university.    No huge crime areas.  I think it really has improved over the last 20 years.  The sprawl is a major flaw.  We are paving over to much green space. We need to preserve historic buildings. Sunrail needs to be expanded and it needs an east west line or two.    These things are doable.  We just have have to make it happen.  

See my thing is I don't compare Orlando to other cities across the country, but the cities in the state. Rolando has had plenty of opportunities to grow and surpass some of the other cities in the state and it just hasn't done so. Even fort Lauderdale and St. Petersburg have better development going on and they are second tier cities respectively in near metropolitan areas only because their first her cities are just knocking it out of the park in Miami and Tampa. 

 

Orlando does not have any other large city in its metropolitan area to compete with and still can't get it right, But I do think the potential is there like you said.

[orlandouprise]

4 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

I don't think this project happens. They have to buy up a lot of those little homes right in front of City Tower and I don't think that has happened.

See my thing is I don't compare Orlando to other cities across the country, but the cities in the state. Rolando has had plenty of opportunities to grow and surpass some of the other cities in the state and it just hasn't done so. Even fort Lauderdale and St. Petersburg have better development going on and they are second tier cities respectively in near metropolitan areas only because their first her cities are just knocking it out of the park in Miami and Tampa. 

 

Orlando does not have any other large city in its metropolitan area to compete with and still can't get it right, But I do think the potential is there like you said.

I was born and raised here. Biggest Orlando homer. Always made excuses for this city, but after visiting so many places our size...its depressing to come home and see what we could have become but are too lazy to become.  Arriving back at MCO quickly smacks you in the face with reality.  Being greeted by throngs of fat ugly people in jorts and flip flops is not very appealing. This place is mediocre at best and will never be better because no one demands better. People are content with the status quo. End of rant. Good night.

 

[jliv]

I was born and raised here. Biggest Orlando homer. Always made excuses for this city, but after visiting so many places our size...its depressing to come home and see what we could have become but are too lazy to become.  Arriving back at MCO quickly smacks you in the face with reality.  Being greeted by throngs of fat ugly people in jorts and flip flops is not very appealing. This place is mediocre at best and will never be better because no one demands better. People are content with the status quo. End of rant. Good night.
 

You’re always going to root for the home team when you’re born there, which is why I’ve been keeping up with what’s going on in Orlando for a long time. The thread over decades: Orlando lacks a strong local business culture. A flourishing hospitality and retail economy doesn’t count. It shapes everything. Harris Rosen and David Siegel (and maybe Chuck Whittall) are the only locally-made business success stories which come to mind, but their products are not things you can export, and they do jack for the local community. There have been Russian oligarchs in London more engaged that Joe Lewis in Orlando. Disney and Comcast do the bare minimum outside of their own special interests.

You can’t have a dynamic, growing city without a strong business community engaged in boosterism and philanthropy. I watched Charlotte explode through the engaged leadership of Hugh McColl in the 1990’s. Michael Dell helped lay the roots for Austin’s success. The role of Bill Gates, a son of Seattle, in Seattle’s emergence from being a Boeing vassal can’t be understated. Local officials can only do so much, when they’re not in the pockets of corporate, out-of-state absentee landlords. Doctors, lawyers, and sports heroes shouldn’t form the base of your investor partners for local projects. Civic activism? It’s hard to build momentum when many residents are transient and not invested in the long-term health of their community, or holed up in their Winter Park castles. It’s telling how the names “Dr. Phillips” and “Walt Disney” are slapped on everything, when they’ve both been dead for more than 60 years. It’s time for new blood. #endofmyrant #totallyofftopic

[jliv]

..

[spenser1058]

I’ve often wondered why our successful homegrown companies sold out rather than reaching launch velocity, leaving the lack of corporate support @jliv discusses.

Whether it’s Dr. Phillips selling to Minute Maid, Bumpy Hughes selling Hughes Supply to Home Depot just as it was reaching the top of its industry or the Wells family making the “equal” merger of Sun and Trust that was anything but, our local business leaders chose to take the money and run instead of building to compete.

Even our political leadership, which once punched way above its strength, has become moribund in the era of multi-decade mayors. The energy of a previous era has dispersed for now.

[jliv]

I’ve often wondered why our successful homegrown companies sold out rather than reaching launch velocity, leaving the lack of corporate support [mention=5222]jliv[/mention] discusses.
Whether it’s Dr. Phillips selling to Minute Maid, Bumpy Hughes selling Hughes Supply to Home Depot just as it was reaching the top of its industry or the Wells family making the “equal” merger of Sun and Trust that was anything but, our local business leaders chose to take the money and run instead of building to compete.
Even our political leadership, which once punched way above its strength, has become moribund in the era of multi-decade mayors. The energy of a previous era has dispersed for now.

Hugh McColl is an ex-Marine who was hellbent on shifting the financial industry gravity from New York and California to the New South, and he largely succeeded. Charlotte was/is lucky to have someone like that, helped along by NC laws protecting their homegrown banks.


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[JFW657]

I have a difficult time understanding this propensity of some critics to blame Orlando and local government for our city not being the idyllic, urban paradise of their dreams. 

So Orlando is "lazy" because some of the tourists who fly in and out of our airport are fat and unattractive??? 

We don't have beautiful, award-winning skyscrapers lining Orange Avenue cheek-to-jowl because the current Mayor doesn't care enough about aesthetics to somehow force developers to consult with each of us as to what we would prefer, then act on it???

Doesn't sound like the way the real world works to me. 

We have become a society in which every situation we're unhappy with, has to be blamed on someone or something. Everything has got to be somebody or something's fault. There must be a culprit or scapegoat to point the finger of blame at.

Has it occurred to the blamers that sometimes things just are what they are? That situations exist due to a myriad of many complex and intertwining cause and effect relationships, some of which have been discussed at lengths here?

IMO, DTO remains on the smaller and less than impressive side as urban centers go, because up until relatively recently, that's what it has always been. We were late bloomers. As was pointed out recently, we don't have a long history of being the home to major corporations dating back a hundred years, when many northern cities were being established.

I'm sure there are too many other reasons to list, like being in such close proximity to larger, more established cities/corporate centers like Miami, Tampa and Jacksonville, too much competition from cheaper office space in suburban office parks, having become established as a tourism and entertainment destination as opposed to a corporate hub, etc., etc. 

Fat people in the airport and a supposedly "inept" mayor have nothing to do with anything, IMO. 

As with everything else, it comes down to money and free market demand. 

[jrs2]

19 hours ago, jliv said:

I’ve lived all over the world, and it’s always nice to come “home” and appreciate Orlando for what it is. The surrounding sprawl is quite dreadful, but it’s got good bones in its core. I’d like for the restaurant scene to up its game a bit around downtown (start with removing the TVs). Make people feel a little guilty for wearing shorts for a night out. I know it’s Florida, but you can dress up a little when you’re out for dinner!


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that's the whole point to a "downtown", right? that's how it is in big cities; it's a level of sophistication you don't always see in Orlando.  but there are some places where people dress up to go out at night, and not just the "clubs" like Citrus and U.

[RedStar25]

At least we aren't Tampa. That city is just asleep at the wheel and the roads are a disaster. 

I'll take Orlando over Tampa any day. Tho I do love Hyde Park. 

[RedStar25]

On 2/19/2022 at 5:26 PM, Uncommon said:

I hope to god you're right and the developer didn't back out or fail to secure funding. That would likely mean the entire project has completely failed as opposed to just being stalled. There is no reason why St. Pete and even Tampa should be totally kicking Orlando's ass in development in and around the core.
 

I also hope the OMA can still find a place downtown, which is desperate for some semblance of culture and class. I shudder at the prospect of downtown Orlando devolving into something close to downtown Jacksonville: no draw at all for anyone other than the homeless and drunks.

Yea, because the Dr. Philips center has absolutely no draw at all........ *sigh*

On 2/20/2022 at 12:46 PM, Musikprince said:

You, my friend have become annoying! Sorry

While the St. Regis is cool.... The inside is in horrible shape. Like really bad, 

[dcluley98]

20 minutes ago, RedStar25 said:

At least we aren't Tampa. That city is just asleep at the wheel and the roads are a disaster. 

I'll take Orlando over Tampa any day. Tho I do love Hyde Park. 

I have a feeling that those who say that Tampa's downtown is any better than Orlando's haven't really walked around there lately.  They just see the taller Tampa buildings, the Riverwalk/Amelie Arena areas, and the Water Street/Channelside development and think it is great for some reason. 

Tampa downtown is a disjointed mess of a place with a lot of one way streets, weird elevated streets blocking off convenient paths, not much street activation, rivers and channels literally separating different neighborhoods so that you have to take a car over a bridge to get there, etc.