CTC Redevelopment - Crescent, BPR & Whitepoint Proposals for Transit Center Redo + More

[SydneyCarton]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

I am 100% against underground bus bays. Denver is just one example, but there are many, many attempts that I would also consider social failures. The Port Authority Terminal is often mentioned, and it's an above-ground deck. I have used it before, and it sucks…

I hate to mention the Forbidden City for fear of ruffling feathers, but further to your comment, the PA indeed sucks.  However, it’s being replaced by an iconic structure designed by Norman Foster and will include five super tall towers.   

Perhaps something like that would be good in Charlotte.
 

https://www.archdaily.com/986752/foster-plus-partners-and-epstein-selected-to-revive-port-authoritys-midtown-bus-terminal-in-manhattan

 

https://www.archpaper.com/2022/08/foster-partners-epstein-tapped-design-port-authority-bus-terminal-replacement/

Edited September 27, 2022 by SydneyCarton

[J-Rob]

30 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I hate to mention the Forbidden City for fear of ruffling feathers

^ I don't think anyone minds references to others cities that are on-point and provide insight to the discussion at hand. Comparatively, if users open a thread to find it has digressed to pictures of expensive mansions in other (frequently non-peer) cities, and references that are clearly off topic, that is when you might sense redirecting.  Your comment above is related to Charlotte's CTC, so it is more aligned to the discussion.

I am curious how long this debate (in the city council) will take to play out.  It seems like it could be years if it is tied to the broader transit plan. Would love to see this project get going in the next couple of years, but I fear it could be a while.  Anyone want to wager whether this or Levine's garage is completed first?

[tozmervo]

4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I hate to mention the Forbidden City for fear of ruffling feathers, but further to your comment, the PA indeed sucks.  However, it’s being replaced by an iconic structure designed by Norman Foster and will include five super tall towers.   

Perhaps something like that would be good in Charlotte.

I'm not really sure how this proposal improves the experience of the bus terminal? The towers seem to be incidental. 

[SydneyCarton]

32 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

I'm not really sure how this proposal improves the experience of the bus terminal? The towers seem to be incidental. 

There’s going to be a new terminal designed by one of the world’s foremost architects and acres of new parks which will be paid for, in part, by the development of massive new towers.  The same plan is set for the $7b redevelopment of Penn Station.  

An above ground project with towers above it might work well in Charlotte too.
 

Edited September 28, 2022 by SydneyCarton

[DonkeyKong]

I’m not a fan of this project as proposed. It seems forced and doomed to be a long term failure imo.  Move the bus station anywhere else and sell the property to Dart.

Edited September 28, 2022 by DonkeyKong

[SydneyCarton]

2 hours ago, DonkeyKong said:

I’m not a fan of this project as proposed. It seems forced and doomed to be a long term failure imo.  Move the bus station anywhere else and sell property to Dart.

I think that the present proposal is nice, but I wonder if the underground aspect makes it too cost prohibitive and  if that, in turn, generates apprehension.

Edited September 28, 2022 by SydneyCarton

[15895]

24 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

There’s going to be a new terminal designed by one of the world’s foremost architects and acres of new parks which will be paid for, in part, by the development of massive new towers.  The same plan is set for the $7b redevelopment of Penn Station.  

An above ground project with towers above it might work well in Charlotte too.
 

I think the biggest difference is how vastly different the necessity and usefulness of transit is in Charlotte and New York and the sheer amount of all sorts of people who need it in a dense area. The subway alone carries more people than the 50 largest airports in the US combined I believe. Not counting ferries, buses, light rail, commuter/suburban rail etc. 

I echo some of the worries above including one I haven’t thought of but how quickly a shiny new facility could quickly become run down. I’m tired of mass transit always being planned around spurring development in Charlotte (unless it was with substantial affordable components, low-income, domestic violence survivors, etc.). There’s 800,000 or so people in the city who need to get around. There’s no need to spur office buildings or whatever by building a pretty facility. With 800,000+ people, it’s crazy to me it seems transit planning focuses on where to create demand… Like when I thought the 277 skirting light rail alignment was dumb and people said “but there is development potential there!” That is outrageous. Around 100,000 people work(ed) uptown, there’s plenty of events. There’s zero need to create new demand beside the nexus of activity… 

I want to see less renderings of office towers and more data on ridership potential, enhancements and a focus on moving people rather than an emphasis on potential skyscrapers. I believe I read on here someone said CATS buses still rely on change/cash. If that’s true, that’s part of the stuff I would want a focus on. There were times I flew to Charlotte and didn’t have change for the CATS bus if I’m not mistaken. I never carry change. There were times I bought a light rail ticket to use for the bus before but that obviously isn’t always an option to do.

i am definitely in favor of $$ towards community bus hubs with a decentralized uptown hub if needed. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[RANYC]

14 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I think the biggest difference is how vastly different the necessity and usefulness of transit is in Charlotte and New York and the sheer amount of all sorts of people who need it in a dense area. The subway alone carries more people than the 50 largest airports in the US combined I believe. Not counting ferries, buses, light rail, commuter/suburban rail etc. 

I echo some of the worries above including one I haven’t thought of but how quickly a shiny new facility could quickly become run down. I’m tired of mass transit always being planned around spurring development in Charlotte (unless it was with substantial affordable components, low-income, domestic violence survivors, etc.). There’s 800,000 or so people in the city who need to get around. There’s no need to spur office buildings or whatever by building a pretty facility. With 800,000+ people, it’s crazy to me it seems transit planning focuses on where to create demand… Like when I thought the 277 skirting light rail alignment was dumb and people said “but there is development potential there!” That is outrageous. Around 100,000 people work(ed) uptown, there’s plenty of events. There’s zero need to create new demand beside the nexus of activity… 

I want to see less renderings of office towers and more data on ridership potential, enhancements and a focus on moving people rather than an emphasis on potential skyscrapers. I believe I read on here someone said CATS buses still rely on change/cash. If that’s true, that’s part of the stuff I would want a focus on. There were times I flew to Charlotte and didn’t have change for the CATS bus if I’m not mistaken. I never carry change. There were times I bought a light rail ticket to use for the bus before but that obviously isn’t always an option to do.

i am definitely in favor of $$ towards community bus hubs with a decentralized uptown hub if needed. 

Much easier to say: “place transit here to spur new growth that will rely on the investment we make”

much much harder to perform the analysis and build the constraints model that says: based on the complex multitude of mobility flows/routines & mobility objectives of the existing 800k + visitors who are already here, how do we place and enhance transit assets to make them highly relevant and competitive to those flows and objectives, through an end-to-end lens.

Whenever I hear John Lewis speak, I have a strong feeling that the 2nd analysis isn’t being done with any real rigor.

Edited September 28, 2022 by RANYC

[queensguy06]

I think there are a lot of good points both for and against the proposal of the redevelopment in this discussion. And while I am for the redevelopment in principal, I do still have a lot of questions about the planning/implementation of the project to ensure that it is a success to meet the needs of the city and isn't another CATS boondoggle. It looks like several public meetings are scheduled around this discussion and I encourage everyone here to attend and make our UP voices heard - https://charlottenc.gov/newsroom/releases/Pages/CATS-Announces-Public-Meetings-for-Charlotte-Transportation-Center-Update.aspx

The need for the transit terminal in center city is still there and necessary for a functioning broader system - this isn't "if we build it, they will come" development. The current facility is nearing the end of it's lifespan at nearly 25 years old and the question is what is the best approach to continue to provide the current services offered by CTC.  Here are a few of the benefits that I see in moving the terminal underground:

Area Connectivity - moving the terminal underground allows for new development and better street interaction creating a more vibrant arena neighborhood while still providing the needed terminal Uptown for commuters/bus riders. The terminal is literally across the street from the arena and that land is underutilized as solely an open air bus hub. It also helps to reduce traffic load/congestion at the street level.

Noise/Bus Pollution - reduction in noise pollution and ventilation moves exhaust above street level.

Security - With an underground terminal there will only be 2-4 points of entry/exit as opposed to the completely open nature of the current terminal. By limiting entry points it is easier to implement security protocols such as requiring a ticket to enter the facility and utilize CCTV system in a more focused setting.

The questions that I still have about planning/implementation start with if this is truly necessary or if it is short sighted. Would this be better served as part of the multi modal station at Gateway providing a true transit hub as opposed to fracturing that connectivity by having a local bus terminal at a different location in the city? Will it become under utilized if/when Gateway Station is completed?

[15895]

9 minutes ago, queensguy06 said:

I think there are a lot of good points both for and against the proposal of the redevelopment in this discussion. And while I am for the redevelopment in principal, I do still have a lot of questions about the planning/implementation of the project to ensure that it is a success to meet the needs of the city and isn't another CATS boondoggle. It looks like several public meetings are scheduled around this discussion and I encourage everyone here to attend and make our UP voices heard - https://charlottenc.gov/newsroom/releases/Pages/CATS-Announces-Public-Meetings-for-Charlotte-Transportation-Center-Update.aspx

The need for the transit terminal in center city is still there and necessary for a functioning broader system - this isn't "if we build it, they will come" development. The current facility is nearing the end of it's lifespan at nearly 25 years old and the question is what is the best approach to continue to provide the current services offered by CTC.  Here are a few of the benefits that I see in moving the terminal underground:

Area Connectivity - moving the terminal underground allows for new development and better street interaction creating a more vibrant arena neighborhood while still providing the needed terminal Uptown for commuters/bus riders. The terminal is literally across the street from the arena and that land is underutilized as solely an open air bus hub. It also helps to reduce traffic load/congestion at the street level.

Noise/Bus Pollution - reduction in noise pollution and ventilation moves exhaust above street level.

Security - With an underground terminal there will only be 2-4 points of entry/exit as opposed to the completely open nature of the current terminal. By limiting entry points it is easier to implement security protocols such as requiring a ticket to enter the facility and utilize CCTV system in a more focused setting.

The questions that I still have about planning/implementation start with if this is truly necessary or if it is short sighted. Would this be better served as part of the multi modal station at Gateway providing a true transit hub as opposed to fracturing that connectivity by having a local bus terminal at a different location in the city? Will it become under utilized if/when Gateway Station is completed?

That was the question that popped into my head when I read your post. Why pursue a very nice looking underground station at CTC when Gateway Station could (???) handle the needs of a centralized uptown location? Could one pull more resources by focusing on Gateway, get larger federal funding and grants for a busier Gateway rather than a split Gateway/CTC? What will be the intended purpose of CTC in context of Gateway? The purpose of a new CTC is actually one I'd be interested in knowing.  Does anyone know or have an idea? 

 

 I likely wont be able to attend meetings but if someone goes, post anything interesting. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[CLT Development]

40 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

That was the question that popped into my head when I read your post. Why pursue a very nice looking underground station at CTC when Gateway Station could (???) handle the needs of a centralized uptown location? Could one pull more resources by focusing on Gateway, get larger federal funding and grants for a busier Gateway rather than a split Gateway/CTC? What will be the intended purpose of CTC in context of Gateway? The purpose of a new CTC is actually one I'd be interested in knowing.  Does anyone know or have an idea? 

 

 I likely wont be able to attend meetings but if someone goes, post anything interesting. 

You would have to completely blow up the plan at Gateway, there are only 8 bay planned. These are old and I absolutely shouldn't be sharing them but it'll give you an idea of just how much has to be accounted for already at Gateway.

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by CLT Development

[Norm2]

Many, many different layers to the plan at Gateway. 

[kermit]

7 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

 The purpose of a new CTC is actually one I'd be interested in knowing.  Does anyone know or have an idea?

Lots of non-transit riders ask why build LRT when buses offer more flexibility. The possibility of moving the CTC 2/3rds of a mile to Gateway is a perfect example of why buses suck. Severing the connection between the Blue Line and the bus system would make several thousand existing daily trips impossible. But beyond existing trip disruptions, this is a perfect example of how the lack of permanence (AKA "flexibility") in bus routes prevents them from creating any real land use change.

So from my perspective it is critically important to keep a strong connection between the bus system and the Blue Line. A Silver Line connection will also be critical, but we still don't know if or when a Silver Line will actually happen. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by kermit

[TCLT]

3 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

That was the question that popped into my head when I read your post. Why pursue a very nice looking underground station at CTC when Gateway Station could (???) handle the needs of a centralized uptown location? Could one pull more resources by focusing on Gateway, get larger federal funding and grants for a busier Gateway rather than a split Gateway/CTC? What will be the intended purpose of CTC in context of Gateway? The purpose of a new CTC is actually one I'd be interested in knowing.  Does anyone know or have an idea? 

 

 I likely wont be able to attend meetings but if someone goes, post anything interesting. 

Current CTC location provides connection to the two current operational rail lines and is more central and closer to more of uptown. There's hardly any Amtrak service and the silver line is two decades away at best. Gateway offers much worse connectivity and will for a long time.

[JRCLT]

I still fail to see what is so bad about an underground bus hub. Aside from ventilation- though from what I’ve read CATS intends to go electric anyways? Eventually. Other than that no other significantly impactful negatives that I can think of off the top of my head. If someone could perhaps explain more specifically why they wouldn’t recommend it. Denver’s is a case brought up frequently, but what exactly causes the issues? I don’t think it’s necessarily being underground alone. Otherwise, you could make conclusions that subterranean stations would cause the same issues, though some thought tunneling would be the best option. What’s the difference between these two despite both being underground? Clearly what negatively affects Denver’s hub isn’t the fact that it’s underground, but some other factor. Perhaps being underground creates a synergistic relationship and not a root cause. Just a few thoughts I had while reading the recent comments. Also questioning whether it should be in uptown is an interesting idea to think about…but looking into councilmen’s ideals and what districts they represent… I dare advise all to take their questioning lightly. Though I’d say personally and more so for the benefit of all bus users that a look into the statistics of bus ridership, where people are located, where most want to be, etc. and using the data to determine if uptown is the appropriate and most efficient location would be a good thing to know before officially committing. I say this if they haven’t done so already.

[KJHburg]

I have said this before but I think a TJ Maxx and or a Ross would kill it there.  Both do urban stores.  They need an anchor if they going mainly retail no bars.  People on conventions, workers on lunch breaks,  uptown residents would all go by those stores.  If the goal is a bunch of high end boutiques it will not make it there.  People might even ride LYNX if they live along the line to shop at a Ross or TJ's.  

I have had to swing by a Ross one time out of town because I did not pack a belt and was heading to Ruth Chris's in Bonita Springs FL which is ground zero for Ian today.  

[RANYC]

13 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I have said this before but I think a TJ Maxx and or a Ross would kill it there.  Both do urban stores.  They need an anchor if they going mainly retail no bars.  People on conventions, workers on lunch breaks,  uptown residents would all go by those stores.  If the goal is a bunch of high end boutiques it will not make it there.  People might even ride LYNX if they live along the line to shop at a Ross or TJ's.  

I have had to swing by a Ross one time out of town because I did not pack a belt and was heading to Ruth Chris's in Bonita Springs FL which is ground zero for Ian today.  

Totally agree.
TJMaxx, World Market, couple of showrooms, a chocolate factory, move the weekend farmers market into the quarter and approach world of beer on a Biergarten concept?

Edited September 29, 2022 by RANYC

[Reverie39]

Another thing I like is urban Targets. Target covers such a huge variety of things, it's always useful to have around. The small Target in Arlington, VA (Rosslyn) is a great example. Very compact but super useful for urban residents. 

Charlotte has one in Midtown which is sort of annoying because it's too close to justify building another in Uptown or South End, but probably too far to be walkable for many South End/Uptown residents (freeway separation for many). I wonder if another similar store could come into those districts instead.

[RANYC]

17 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I have said this before but I think a TJ Maxx and or a Ross would kill it there.  Both do urban stores.  They need an anchor if they going mainly retail no bars.  People on conventions, workers on lunch breaks,  uptown residents would all go by those stores.  If the goal is a bunch of high end boutiques it will not make it there.  People might even ride LYNX if they live along the line to shop at a Ross or TJ's.  

I have had to swing by a Ross one time out of town because I did not pack a belt and was heading to Ruth Chris's in Bonita Springs FL which is ground zero for Ian today.  

My slight concern here arising from taking a “portfolio” approach to curating retail in uptown is whether these all-inclusive big box retail venues restrict the pipeline for uptown getting a wide variety of other, eclectic retail.  Perhaps that’s just a high class problem given there’s currently barely any retail in the district, but might be more narrowly-focused anchor options to draw traffic.

I also want to throw “creative workspaces” into the mix as well, for the QC Quarter lineup!

Edited September 29, 2022 by RANYC

[TheOneRJ]

There’s also already a Marshall’s in Midtown so I can’t imagine a TJ Maxx would bring in too much foot traffic. A destination store such as Apple is what is needed to attract consistent foot traffic. 

[KJHburg]

16 hours ago, TheOneRJ said:

There’s also already a Marshall’s in Midtown so I can’t imagine a TJ Maxx would bring in too much foot traffic. A destination store such as Apple is what is needed to attract consistent foot traffic. 

actually one would and though owned by the same company many like TJ Maxx better.  the high end shopper is not just going to drive into uptown Charlotte and shop there.  I think you have stores that attract a wide audience like tourists, uptown residents and uptown workers.     Would love to see a Nordstrom or something like that but it just not going to happen in this retail environment.    They could do some pop up retail and leave some space for more experimental retailers.  

[SydneyCarton]

I hope that this gets built.  This is a very impressive tower.

Edited October 6, 2022 by SydneyCarton

[navigator319]

Hah never will be built.  Charlotte does not build things like this, it builds things like The Ellis. 

[SydneyCarton]

2 minutes ago, navigator319 said:

Hah never will be built.  Charlotte does not build things like this, it builds things like The Ellis. 

Don’t tell that to Riverside.  They’re building an incredible project, as have many developers in Clt.

[SydneyCarton]

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2022-10-04/fact-checking-the-citys-talking-points-for-a-new-uptown-bus-station

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by SydneyCarton