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CTC Redevelopment - Crescent, BPR & Whitepoint Proposals for Transit Center Redo + More


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1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

I am 100% against underground bus bays. Denver is just one example, but there are many, many attempts that I would also consider social failures. The Port Authority Terminal is often mentioned, and it's an above-ground deck. I have used it before, and it sucks…

I hate to mention the Forbidden City for fear of ruffling feathers, but further to your comment, the PA indeed sucks.  However, it’s being replaced by an iconic structure designed by Norman Foster and will include five super tall towers.   

Perhaps something like that would be good in Charlotte.
 

https://www.archdaily.com/986752/foster-plus-partners-and-epstein-selected-to-revive-port-authoritys-midtown-bus-terminal-in-manhattan

 

https://www.archpaper.com/2022/08/foster-partners-epstein-tapped-design-port-authority-bus-terminal-replacement/

Edited by SydneyCarton
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4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I hate to mention the Forbidden City for fear of ruffling feathers, but further to your comment, the PA indeed sucks.  However, it’s being replaced by an iconic structure designed by Norman Foster and will include five super tall towers.   

Perhaps something like that would be good in Charlotte.

I'm not really sure how this proposal improves the experience of the bus terminal? The towers seem to be incidental. 

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32 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

I'm not really sure how this proposal improves the experience of the bus terminal? The towers seem to be incidental. 

There’s going to be a new terminal designed by one of the world’s foremost architects and acres of new parks which will be paid for, in part, by the development of massive new towers.  The same plan is set for the $7b redevelopment of Penn Station.  

An above ground project with towers above it might work well in Charlotte too.
 

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Edited by SydneyCarton
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2 hours ago, DonkeyKong said:

I’m not a fan of this project as proposed. It seems forced and doomed to be a long term failure imo.  Move the bus station anywhere else and sell property to Dart.

I think that the present proposal is nice, but I wonder if the underground aspect makes it too cost prohibitive and  if that, in turn, generates apprehension.

Edited by SydneyCarton
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9 minutes ago, queensguy06 said:

I think there are a lot of good points both for and against the proposal of the redevelopment in this discussion. And while I am for the redevelopment in principal, I do still have a lot of questions about the planning/implementation of the project to ensure that it is a success to meet the needs of the city and isn't another CATS boondoggle. It looks like several public meetings are scheduled around this discussion and I encourage everyone here to attend and make our UP voices heard - https://charlottenc.gov/newsroom/releases/Pages/CATS-Announces-Public-Meetings-for-Charlotte-Transportation-Center-Update.aspx

The need for the transit terminal in center city is still there and necessary for a functioning broader system - this isn't "if we build it, they will come" development. The current facility is nearing the end of it's lifespan at nearly 25 years old and the question is what is the best approach to continue to provide the current services offered by CTC.  Here are a few of the benefits that I see in moving the terminal underground:

Area Connectivity - moving the terminal underground allows for new development and better street interaction creating a more vibrant arena neighborhood while still providing the needed terminal Uptown for commuters/bus riders. The terminal is literally across the street from the arena and that land is underutilized as solely an open air bus hub. It also helps to reduce traffic load/congestion at the street level.

Noise/Bus Pollution - reduction in noise pollution and ventilation moves exhaust above street level.

Security - With an underground terminal there will only be 2-4 points of entry/exit as opposed to the completely open nature of the current terminal. By limiting entry points it is easier to implement security protocols such as requiring a ticket to enter the facility and utilize CCTV system in a more focused setting.

The questions that I still have about planning/implementation start with if this is truly necessary or if it is short sighted. Would this be better served as part of the multi modal station at Gateway providing a true transit hub as opposed to fracturing that connectivity by having a local bus terminal at a different location in the city? Will it become under utilized if/when Gateway Station is completed?

That was the question that popped into my head when I read your post. Why pursue a very nice looking underground station at CTC when Gateway Station could (???) handle the needs of a centralized uptown location? Could one pull more resources by focusing on Gateway, get larger federal funding and grants for a busier Gateway rather than a split Gateway/CTC? What will be the intended purpose of CTC in context of Gateway? The purpose of a new CTC is actually one I'd be interested in knowing.  Does anyone know or have an idea? 

 

 I likely wont be able to attend meetings but if someone goes, post anything interesting. 

Edited by AirNostrumMAD
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3 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

That was the question that popped into my head when I read your post. Why pursue a very nice looking underground station at CTC when Gateway Station could (???) handle the needs of a centralized uptown location? Could one pull more resources by focusing on Gateway, get larger federal funding and grants for a busier Gateway rather than a split Gateway/CTC? What will be the intended purpose of CTC in context of Gateway? The purpose of a new CTC is actually one I'd be interested in knowing.  Does anyone know or have an idea? 

 

 I likely wont be able to attend meetings but if someone goes, post anything interesting. 

Current CTC location provides connection to the two current operational rail lines and is more central and closer to more of uptown. There's hardly any Amtrak service and the silver line is two decades away at best. Gateway offers much worse connectivity and will for a long time.

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I still fail to see what is so bad about an underground bus hub. Aside from ventilation- though from what I’ve read CATS intends to go electric anyways? Eventually. Other than that no other significantly impactful negatives that I can think of off the top of my head. If someone could perhaps explain more specifically why they wouldn’t recommend it. Denver’s is a case brought up frequently, but what exactly causes the issues? I don’t think it’s necessarily being underground alone. Otherwise, you could make conclusions that subterranean stations would cause the same issues, though some thought tunneling would be the best option. What’s the difference between these two despite both being underground? Clearly what negatively affects Denver’s hub isn’t the fact that it’s underground, but some other factor. Perhaps being underground creates a synergistic relationship and not a root cause. Just a few thoughts I had while reading the recent comments. Also questioning whether it should be in uptown is an interesting idea to think about…but looking into councilmen’s ideals and what districts they represent… I dare advise all to take their questioning lightly. Though I’d say personally and more so for the benefit of all bus users that a look into the statistics of bus ridership, where people are located, where most want to be, etc. and using the data to determine if uptown is the appropriate and most efficient location would be a good thing to know before officially committing. I say this if they haven’t done so already.

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13 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I have said this before but I think a TJ Maxx and or a Ross would kill it there.  Both do urban stores.  They need an anchor if they going mainly retail no bars.  People on conventions, workers on lunch breaks,  uptown residents would all go by those stores.  If the goal is a bunch of high end boutiques it will not make it there.  People might even ride LYNX if they live along the line to shop at a Ross or TJ's.  

I have had to swing by a Ross one time out of town because I did not pack a belt and was heading to Ruth Chris's in Bonita Springs FL which is ground zero for Ian today.  

Totally agree.
TJMaxx, World Market, couple of showrooms, a chocolate factory, move the weekend farmers market into the quarter and approach world of beer on a Biergarten concept?

Edited by RANYC
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Another thing I like is urban Targets. Target covers such a huge variety of things, it's always useful to have around. The small Target in Arlington, VA (Rosslyn) is a great example. Very compact but super useful for urban residents. 

Charlotte has one in Midtown which is sort of annoying because it's too close to justify building another in Uptown or South End, but probably too far to be walkable for many South End/Uptown residents (freeway separation for many). I wonder if another similar store could come into those districts instead.

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17 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I have said this before but I think a TJ Maxx and or a Ross would kill it there.  Both do urban stores.  They need an anchor if they going mainly retail no bars.  People on conventions, workers on lunch breaks,  uptown residents would all go by those stores.  If the goal is a bunch of high end boutiques it will not make it there.  People might even ride LYNX if they live along the line to shop at a Ross or TJ's.  

I have had to swing by a Ross one time out of town because I did not pack a belt and was heading to Ruth Chris's in Bonita Springs FL which is ground zero for Ian today.  

My slight concern here arising from taking a “portfolio” approach to curating retail in uptown is whether these all-inclusive big box retail venues restrict the pipeline for uptown getting a wide variety of other, eclectic retail.  Perhaps that’s just a high class problem given there’s currently barely any retail in the district, but might be more narrowly-focused anchor options to draw traffic.

I also want to throw “creative workspaces” into the mix as well, for the QC Quarter lineup!

Edited by RANYC
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