CTC Redevelopment - Crescent, BPR & Whitepoint Proposals for Transit Center Redo + More

[RANYC]

16 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2022-10-04/fact-checking-the-citys-talking-points-for-a-new-uptown-bus-station

 

 

Article can also be referred to as “an exposé on incompetence”

Edited October 6, 2022 by RANYC

[Matthew.Brendan]

I thought CATS wanted to move away from hub and spoke... rebuilding the CTC in place will just cement this model for years to come...

[RANYC]

9 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

I thought CATS wanted to move away from hub and spoke... rebuilding the CTC in place will just cement this model for years to come...

CATS bus ridership has fallen off a cliff (down 70+%) because of negative experiences and a crisis of confidence for current and past riders engaging with the bus system across its vast network of 65 routes and 2,957 bus stops…so of course we should pump a ton of money into a single transit node in uptown to fix the crisis, and put a high-rise on top.  There, problem fixed.

Edited October 6, 2022 by RANYC

[Durhamite]

2 hours ago, RANYC said:

CATS bus ridership has fallen off a cliff (down 70+%) because of negative experiences and a crisis of confidence for current and past riders engaging with the bus system across its vast network of 65 routes and 2,957 bus stops…so of course we should pump a ton of money into a single transit node in uptown to fix the crisis, and put a high-rise on top.  There, problem fixed.

https://www.denverpost.com/2022/01/30/regional-transportation-district-crossroads-ridership-commuting/amp/
 

Incompetence or a sign of what’s really going on.  

[Reverie39]

4 hours ago, navigator319 said:

Hah never will be built.  Charlotte does not build things like this, it builds things like The Ellis. 

Maybe you disagree but I think the new Duke Energy center is a classy looking tower that looks on par with this.

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, Durhamite said:

https://www.denverpost.com/2022/01/30/regional-transportation-district-crossroads-ridership-commuting/amp/
 

Incompetence or a sign of what’s really going on.  

Yes, there are macro variables at play, but is a big, shiny, new central hub a reasonably appropriate response to these fundamental pattern shifts?  Frankly, I'd have more respect for John Lewis if he simply articulated a vision such as: "Charlotte is choosing to orient its transit system to Uptown because we want our center city to continue to be a central economic powerhouse for the entire region.  We don't want transit lines to play any part in dispersing the powerful center city economy that we've carefully crafted over a couple generations, in defiance of trends in many other car-centric, sprawl-laden, sunbelt cities."

But I get none of that from him. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by RANYC

[15895]

2 hours ago, Durhamite said:

https://www.denverpost.com/2022/01/30/regional-transportation-district-crossroads-ridership-commuting/amp/
 

Incompetence or a sign of what’s really going on.  

 CATS has what. 36,000 users per weekday (Aug 22) versus 230,000 2Q22for RTD? 

 

[KJHburg]

Interesting story about bus depot underground   hmmmm...

https://www.wfae.org/politics/2022-11-10/more-questions-on-cats-push-for-90m-underground-bus-station

[15895]

12 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Interesting story about bus depot underground   hmmmm...

https://www.wfae.org/politics/2022-11-10/more-questions-on-cats-push-for-90m-underground-bus-station

I’m with Driggs. This is sounding like a financial windfall for a private developer. 

I would personally prefer the bus station be above ground and I’m not even sure a contained ticket area makes sense. Downtown needs more people on the streets anyway. Not forced underground. 

[Matthew.Brendan]

It's literally trying to manifest "out of sight, out of mind"

If you take all the problems, real and perceived, of the current CTC and think that putting them literally underground is somehow going to make things..... better? oh man.

[15895]

2 hours ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

It's literally trying to manifest "out of sight, out of mind"

If you take all the problems, real and perceived, of the current CTC and think that putting them literally underground is somehow going to make things..... better? oh man.

On top of being a fare zone. Would that discourage people from exiting? I’m going to give the benefit of the doubt but the cynic in me feels like a motivation for a fare zone for local buses underground, well…. There’s no point in me saying it. Because I feel it’s obvious what my suspicions are. 

Though I’d be super interested to know if others can point to examples of regular local bus route hub that requires a ticket to enter into a holding area?

It might well be underutilized assuming the silver line gets built. I also think it’d be worth just investing in improving the multiple bus hubs, maybe move the primary central one out of uptown and put one at like CPCC or where there are more services or grocery stores or some strategic area that could increase the frequency in where bus riders need to go. Not sure uptown - for local bus riders - has many advantageous reasons for being located uptown vs. a facility at say CPCC or something.

I dunno, if I were still a local, I’d be opposed. Although the Cities skyline urban nerd loves the idea, the renderings, etc. It seems like a dud of valuable transit $$$.

[KJHburg]

Well it is going underground it seems.   From the Biz Journal this afternoon"

""Charlotte City Council took an incremental step today toward building a new transportation center, unanimously endorsing a design option that would put the bus hub below ground with retail, offices and parking built above.

Council’s transportation committee voted 4-0 in support after months of questions over harmful air quality if the bus bays are below ground as well as aesthetic concerns. Charlotte Area Transit System’s planning director, Jason Lawrence, told the committee that an imminent shift to electric buses will mitigate potential air-quality problems.

City government and transit representatives also offered results from customers and bus drivers showing a preference for the design.

""Transit and city government administrators have said for months that they prefer the design option endorsed by the committee today. That approval does not mean the project has been given a green light. The full council must still vote on a future development agreement and a financing plan once those have been negotiated.

The discussions come as CATS battles declines in ridership, a CEO vacancy and other challenges.

Lawrence and Tracy Dodson, the assistant city manager in charge of economic development, told the committee today that they needed to decide on a design so that the various partners could have certainty while assessing the rest of the proposed mixed-use project.

Locally based White Point Partners and Dallas real estate firm Dart Interests were selected in 2019 by the transit system to preside over a redevelopment of the existing Charlotte Transportation Center. The transportation center opened in 1995; a decade later, the NBA arena opened across the street.

The 2.6-acre site is bounded by East Fourth, East Trade and South Brevard streets as well as the Lynx Blue Line tracks.

An above-ground option, called a terrace design, offered similar service options but lacked the same amount of climate-controlled space for waiting passengers. In addition, keeping the bus area free of possible loitering and security risks would be harder in an above-ground station because stores and other features on the same level would make it difficult to create ticket-controlled areas of access for riders, CATS and the city said.

Other advantages for the option chosen include more efficient traffic paths for buses entering and exiting the transportation center. 

Blending private development, such as offices, shops and restaurants, and creating a destination that can spawn an arena district are much likelier with the configuration that puts buses below ground, they added.""

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2023/01/03/council-oks-design-for-new-charlotte-transit-hub.html

""Next steps include a memorandum of understanding between the city, CATS and the developer, likely this spring, a financing plan and final votes by the full council. The city hopes to have the project underway in 2024 with the temporary center built, followed by the new transportation center and other elements starting in 2025.""

[carolinaboy]

Could this underground transit center be a future stop for an underground Silver LRT Line?

[KJHburg]

1 hour ago, carolinaboy said:

Could this underground transit center be a future stop for an underground Silver LRT Line?

No as they plan now for the Silver Line to go around the heart of uptown 

[Matthew.Brendan]

They must have toured Denver Union Station underground and been impressed with it to decide it was perfect model for Charlotte.

[15895]

6 hours ago, KJHburg said:

No as they plan now for the Silver Line to go around the heart of uptown 

Bad connection to Blue Line and a complete miss of connection between the yet to be built/alignment decided silver line and yet to be built bus hub… I just don't think that’s smart. 

If buses start to use various silver line stations as major bus stops (like blue line) and the silver line becomes a major transit line and serve as a backbone of the transit system along with the blue line, it seems connections to bus routes at CTC would be terrible? 

In a perfect world, CTC would be a major multi level transfer point between the blue line, silver line & a major bus hub for city buses (which I thought CATS had wanted to move away from) & Epicenter would be renovated. Imagine a renovated epicenter connected to a Blue/Silver & renovated CTC Station. That would be so awesome. Also seems some infrastructure $’s could be consolidated if silver line & CTC bus hub shared facilities? 

But it’s odd to me they actually care a lot about silver line hitting Gateway Station.  I don’t think Gateway is that necessary to be served by the silver line. It’ll likely generate very small ridership for the silver line (Gold Line seems adequate for gateway).

Edited January 4, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[JRCLT]

Bad connection to Blue Line and a complete miss of connection between the yet to be built/alignment decided silver line and yet to be built bus hub… I just don't think that’s smart. 
If buses start to use various silver line stations as major bus stops (like blue line) and the silver line becomes a major transit line and serve as a backbone of the transit system along with the blue line, it seems connections to bus routes at CTC would be terrible? 
In a perfect world, CTC would be a major multi level transfer point between the blue line, silver line & a major bus hub for city buses (which I thought CATS had wanted to move away from) & Epicenter would be renovated. Imagine a renovated epicenter connected to a Blue/Silver & renovated CTC Station. That would be so awesome. Also seems some infrastructure $’s could be consolidated if silver line & CTC bus hub shared facilities? 
But it’s odd to me they actually care a lot about silver line hitting Gateway Station.  I don’t think Gateway is that necessary to be served by the silver line. It’ll likely generate very small ridership for the silver line (Gold Line seems adequate for gateway).

Could have been shifted to the parking lot owned by Mecklenburg county along the blue line though I think some of the costs would be funded by the developer? Otherwise moving to the north would be a great way to connect the silver and blue line.

[15895]

1 hour ago, JeanClt said:

Could have been shifted to the parking lot owned by Mecklenburg county along the blue line though I think some of the costs would be funded by the developer? Otherwise moving to the north would be a great way to connect the silver and blue line.

Too bad there’s no developer with a lot of land in 1st ward near the 277 alignment that could’ve partnered with the city to build a mixed use bus hub project that could make blue and silver connection better and try to create a mini stroll District along the major transit connection point close to a park, UNCC, etc….

 

[Reverie39]

I wonder what the entrance to the underground bus terminal will look like? Now that my hopes of an underground Silver Line are being dashed, maybe I can take solace in a cool subway-like entrance stairway+elevator to the CTC? Only half joking. It would look so big-city lol

[JRCLT]

I wonder what the entrance to the underground bus terminal will look like? Now that my hopes of an underground Silver Line are being dashed, maybe I can take solace in a cool subway-like entrance stairway+elevator to the CTC? Only half joking. It would look so big-city lol

The Oculus:



Does look cool.

[southslider]

2 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Too bad there’s no developer with a lot of land in 1st ward near the 277 alignment that could’ve partnered with the city to build a mixed use bus hub project that could make blue and silver connection better and try to create a mini stroll District along the major transit connection point close to a park, UNCC, etc….

 

Heck, forget Levine, the Hal Marshall Annex property is already owned by the County. This public property along the Blue Line even stretches from 9th to 11th Streets.  Imagine a "climate-controlled concourse" that actually connected Silver Line and Blue Line.

[KJHburg]

I am not sure who this consultant thinks is going to spend the money they are talking about for naming rights for a new bus transfer station.  I think those numbers are way too high.

https://www.wfae.org/business/2023-02-09/will-companies-pay-millions-for-naming-rights-by-charlottes-bus-station

[DownEast]

58 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

I am not sure who this consultant thinks is going to spend the money they are talking about for naming rights for a new bus transfer station.  I think those numbers are way too high.

https://www.wfae.org/business/2023-02-09/will-companies-pay-millions-for-naming-rights-by-charlottes-bus-station

The practice facility is likely. Maybe even the whole district. But the mention of Salesforce Park to justify possible naming rights for our new bus station had milk exploding from my nose. Dark horse guess: Snyder-Lance

[turbocraig]

Somebody help me here…

“The city’s consultant — Moran — cast the [NASCAR] Hall as a tacky intrusion on his vision for Charlotte’s "festival district."

“How do you generate and maximize revenue but in an authentic way?” Moran said. “I think we want to avoid a NASCAR Hall of Fame feel where you are seeing a lot of brands slapped around or a lot of LED signage.”

But wait, because also..

“Moran said the city could sell the naming rights to the entire area — a first for Charlotte. As an example, he pointed to names like “The Bank of America District” or “The District Presented by Bank of America.””

This can’t fail. 

[RANYC]

30 minutes ago, turbocraig said:

Somebody help me here…

“The city’s consultant — Moran — cast the [NASCAR] Hall as a tacky intrusion on his vision for Charlotte’s "festival district."

“How do you generate and maximize revenue but in an authentic way?” Moran said. “I think we want to avoid a NASCAR Hall of Fame feel where you are seeing a lot of brands slapped around or a lot of LED signage.”

But wait, because also..

“Moran said the city could sell the naming rights to the entire area — a first for Charlotte. As an example, he pointed to names like “The Bank of America District” or “The District Presented by Bank of America.””

This can’t fail. 

Charlotte to harlot. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by RANYC