CTC Redevelopment - Crescent, BPR & Whitepoint Proposals for Transit Center Redo + More

[Desert Power]

23 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Agree that would be ideal for CATS to move away from there, but given their fairly new expansion there, I don't see it happening for ~25 years.

Yeah, certainly a cycle or two away.  What is the fairly new expansion piece?  

[Scribe]

They added the parking deck and renovated the garage...

[videtur quam contuor]

As I recall, the Charlotte Bus yard was on 11th street between Sears (Hal Marshall) and First Ward School. In the 1970's the bus company was privately owned. The city purchased it not long after a driver strike crippled service and expanded the system as a service to the citizens above the profit considerations of the former owners. This bus locations was prior to the 277 construction, obviously. There was a strike of bus drivers which paralyzed the system and this encouraged the city to make this decision.

Also, as an update, the county ambulance service was also a private concern and operated from a converted house on South Boulevard, across from Pritchard Baptist Church. This was a much smaller operation than buses and IIRC one consideration for merging into city control was the collection of payment for ambulance service. If a call came from an address with an outstanding balance the service may not respond (and other issues of the like). As Dilworth changed from the late 60's to late 70's there was more resistance to an ambulance charging through the neighborhood, or any neighborhood, using any route, siren a-blaring for all purposes or none.

The idea of government operation of such services is a relatively new here in Charlotte. I recall well both of these locations.

[tozmervo]

17 hours ago, Desert Power said:

Wondering aloud here....What are the chances that CATS could move on from their space on North Davidson as they shift from just having one main hub Uptown?  Eventually could be a nice infill spot

 

5 hours ago, Scribe said:

Agree that would be ideal for CATS to move away from there, but given their fairly new expansion there, I don't see it happening for ~25 years.

There are other areas that could be more suitable in the long run, but that bus yard (along with the one on South Tryon) gives CATS an important logistical advantage in having busses stored near the beginning of their routes. There's a lot of money saved in not driving busses miles and miles to begin their routes. It's also their STS dispatch center, so the STS busses are benefitted by a central location. 

[kermit]

3 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

As I recall, the Charlotte Bus yard was on 11th street between Sears (Hal Marshall) and First Ward School. In the 1970's the bus company was privately owned. The city purchased it not long after a driver strike crippled service and expanded the system as a service to the citizens above the profit considerations of the former owners. This bus locations was prior to the 277 construction, obviously. There was a strike of bus drivers which paralyzed the system and this encouraged the city to make this decision.

Also, as an update, the county ambulance service was also a private concern and operated from a converted house on South Boulevard, across from Pritchard Baptist Church. This was a much smaller operation than buses and IIRC one consideration for merging into city control was the collection of payment for ambulance service. If a call came from an address with an outstanding balance the service may not respond (and other issues of the like). As Dilworth changed from the late 60's to late 70's there was more resistance to an ambulance charging through the neighborhood, or any neighborhood, using any route, siren a-blaring for all purposes or none.

The idea of government operation of such services is a relatively new here in Charlotte. I recall well both of these locations.

Could the private bus company have been Duke Power?

[I know Duke Power operated the Durham city buses for many years (well into the 1970s), I believe it was from legacy streetcar operations]

Edited September 23, 2019 by kermit

[KJHburg]

7 minutes ago, kermit said:

Could the private bus company have been Duke Power?

[I know Duke Power operated the Durham city buses for many years (despite it being CP&L territory), I believe it was from legacy streetcar operations]

Duke Power did operate the buses here for many years not sure when they stopped but they did. 

[videtur quam contuor]

Rather than go by my memory I looked online and the City Coach company ran the system from 1955 to 1976 when the City assumed control. Duke was prior to City Coach.  I bet Duke wanted no part of enforcing segregated seating on buses so bowed out in 1955. Just a guess. You need an older memory to confirm that. I have a dim memory that City Coach also operated in Kansas City. 

 

[Scribe]

18 hours ago, tozmervo said:

There are other areas that could be more suitable in the long run, but that bus yard (along with the one on South Tryon) gives CATS an important logistical advantage in having busses stored near the beginning of their routes. There's a lot of money saved in not driving busses miles and miles to begin their routes. It's also their STS dispatch center, so the STS busses are benefitted by a central location. 

That works for the hub and spoke design that CATS was/is currently using. But as they move away from that, wouldn't this become a disadvantage?

[southslider]

A central bus garage remains advantageous for the grid system replacing the spoke system.  

[tozmervo]

13 hours ago, Scribe said:

That works for the hub and spoke design that CATS was/is currently using. But as they move away from that, wouldn't this become a disadvantage?

I suppose "it's complicated" is probably the best answer, but the centralized depot does allow for consolidated maintenance and staffing needs.

[Scribe]

9 hours ago, tozmervo said:

the centralized depot does allow for consolidated maintenance and staffing needs.

I can see that, but even the light-rail has a north and a south depot where service and storage is done.

I think Charlotte will probably need a similar setup for the buses, eventually.

[Spartan]

On 9/22/2019 at 8:36 PM, Desert Power said:

Wondering aloud here....What are the chances that CATS could move on from their space on North Davidson as they shift from just having one main hub Uptown?  Eventually could be a nice infill spot

Unlikely in the foreseeable future (20+ years). It was a large investment when they built it, and the location is excellent for their operations. I think the calculus changes when demand for that space becomes so high that the selling price would buy them a new facility, and I don't think its anywhere close to that point yet. 

It would be nice, though, if they could improve the streetscape in that area so their drivers don't have to stand next to traffic while they wait to get picked up.

[SydneyCarton]

I really hope that this project gets the ball rolling in 2020.  This site (and the adjacent parking lots on E 4th St) are an eyesore and a waste of prime land.  

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I really hope that this project gets the ball rolling in 2020.  This site (and the adjacent parking lots on E 4th St) are an eyesore and a waste of prime land.  

I wouldn't imagine this gets any action until 2022

[SydneyCarton]

15 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

I wouldn't imagine this gets any action until 2022

Thanks.  I didn't think that construction would start until at least then, but I hope that firm plans will be disclosed.  As I recall, aren't these towers supposed to be mixed use?  If so, hopefully, they can start without a tenant commitment.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Thanks.  I didn't think that construction would start until at least then, but I hope that firm plans will be disclosed.  As I recall, aren't these towers supposed to be mixed use?  If so, hopefully, they can start without a tenant commitment.

As I understand it the proposal was put together just for the hope of winning the contract. I'm assuming the build out would be completely market driven.

[SydneyCarton]

1 minute ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

As I understand it the proposal was put together just for the hope of winning the contract. I'm assuming the build out would be completely market driven.

That makes sense.

[videtur quam contuor]

The earlier bus garage, when it was a private company was across the freeway, though there was no freeway at that time. The relocation of the garage was about the same time as the 277 build. Going from memory but I had to drive that way every day in the early 80's.

[KJHburg]

Had to go back almost 2 years for this thread but major news on this front.  Maybe the tower or two on my list of 60 here will get built after all after this Federal grant of $15 M

Private-public venture gets boost from $15M federal transit grant - Charlotte Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

""  The likelihood of a mixed-use makeover for the Charlotte Transportation Center increased last week when the city landed a $15 million federal grant to help fund the proposed project.

U.S. Sen. Thom Tillis (R-N.C.) first shared the news on Nov. 16 in a Twitter post, writing: “I was proud to advocate with Senator Burr for this funding to create a new transit center, which will be transformational for the Charlotte region.” He was referring to U.S. Sen. Richard Burr (R-N.C.).  City government administrators credited the two senators and Congresswoman Alma Adams, a Democrat whose district includes portions of Charlotte, as key advocates for the transit grant. 

The transportation center “is at the end of its useful life,” Tracy Dodson, the city’s head of economic development, told CBJ. “We had been working on design for putting mixed-use (development) on top of transit” and the grant will help with those plans.  Dodson pointed out that discussions of a possible makeover started in the private sector when High Point-based developer BPR Properties made an unsolicited bid for the site.  CATS issued a request for proposals after that and, in August 2019, selected White Point Partners of Charlotte and Dallas-based Dart Interests to redevelop the site. ""

[KJHburg]

Charlotte Transportation Center - White Point Partners   this could be a very large mixed use project with multiple high rises. 

[RANYC]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Charlotte Transportation Center - White Point Partners   this could be a very large mixed use project with multiple high rises. 

I recall when the RFP to re-imagine and re-develop the CTC went out, and when White Point was selected.  I believe their plans at the time were largely office.  I wonder what's changed.  Surely, those plans are no longer on the table.  How far does $15 million actually go for a CTC re-development, or will the $15 million be a grant-incentive to a developer to get work underway to transform the site?

[kayman]

33 minutes ago, RANYC said:

I recall when the RFP to re-imagine and re-develop the CTC went out, and when White Point was selected.  I believe their plans at the time were largely office.  I wonder what's changed.  Surely, those plans are no longer on the table.  How far does $15 million actually go for a CTC re-development, or will the $15 million be a grant-incentive to a developer to get work underway to transform the site?

It's a combo of office and hotel space with ground-level retail adjacent to the new large transit mobility hub facility. 

[CltFlyer]

2 hours ago, kayman said:

It's a combo of office and hotel space with ground-level retail adjacent to the new large transit mobility hub facility. 

Instead of being adjacent, the new transportation facility will be built underground with connections to the nearby Gold Line and Blue line.  The office/hotel space will go on top of it.  

https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2021-11/RaiseGrants_Capital Fact Sheets.pdf

[Matthew.Brendan]

[quote]Description:

This project will construct a new multimodal transit center to replace the existing open air bus terminal in downtown Charlotte. The new transit center will include an underground bus concourse. [/quote]

 Wow. Can’t wait to experience the splendor of an an underground bus concourse. Who doesn’t love breathing diesel smog?

[CltFlyer]

48 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

[quote]Description:

This project will construct a new multimodal transit center to replace the existing open air bus terminal in downtown Charlotte. The new transit center will include an underground bus concourse. [/quote]

 Wow. Can’t wait to experience the splendor of an an underground bus concourse. Who doesn’t love breathing diesel smog?

By the time this project sees completion the buses will likely be all electric/hybrid.