CTC Redevelopment - Crescent, BPR & Whitepoint Proposals for Transit Center Redo + More

[J-Rob]

On 6/6/2022 at 9:05 PM, atlrvr said:

Maybe reading too much into it, but why the Jumpman logo?  Is Nike/Jordan Brand opening a corporate office?

This thought led my to think Charlotte would be a decent location for brands to open College Athletic branding offices now that it's permitted.

This is such an interesting thought I am going to be stuck on it until this tower (hopefully ) opens and we see one way or the other.  Also, I know they talked about selling the naming rights and there was some controversy about whether that would raise significant money.  I wonder if Nike/Jordan Brand has committed to naming rights on the practice facility already.

[wilmore]

On 6/9/2022 at 12:28 PM, JeanClt said:

From the Charlotte Ledger: “Yaffe said Charlotte should consider returning to the earlier model. He said it’s not necessary for large cities to even have a main bus station. Think about major cities with large transit systems, like New York.

New York has the Port Authority for regional buses — but there is no central bus station for local buses. The same is true for London and Paris.

Yaffe said Charlotte buses could just have various stops uptown — perhaps on Tryon Street, or perhaps on College or Church streets. If people needed to transfer, they would just walk a block or two to a different stop.

Some CATS express buses already operate that way today. They may make a stop at the CTC, but it isn’t their final destination. And CATS has been trying to move away from an uptown-focused, “hub-and-spoke” route system for years.

Removing the bus station would create some logistical challenges, Yaffe said, like finding a place for drivers to use the bathroom. But those could be solved, he said.”

True. Charlotte has been decentralizing the bus system. Also considering adding bathrooms at key stops on bus routes creating transit nodes. Such as the mobility centers and plazas recommendation in Envision my ride.

https://envision-my-ride-bus-priority-study-1-charlotte.hub.arcgis.com/pages/studyrecommendations

CTC won’t be a great place above or below ground and will be magnet for unsightly things that we’d rather not see when taking transit. Either way not having one really is something to consider now that I’m thinking about it.

Yes, this should be the way to proceed. Does any large city with an actually useful transit system use the central bus station model? 

[kermit]

1 hour ago, wilmore said:

Yes, this should be the way to proceed. Does any large city with an actually useful transit system use the central bus station model? 

Decentralized bus networks function reasonably well when they can deliver passengers to high frequency rapid transit corridors for trips to, and through, the center of town. Atlanta, Chicago, Toronto, London and DC function this way (I am sure many other cities do as well but I am less familiar with those bus networks). Unfortunately the Blue line is not high frequency enough (at the moment) to support this network structure and it only covers a fraction of town. The addition of the Silver line would make a buses-serving trains network (i.e. one without a central station)  much more viable. Imagine a bus route running from Pineville-Matthews-U City-Northlake. The route would interface with the Blue Line twice, Silver line in Matthews and a theoretical Red Line station (or the real BRT) at Northlake. This would provide radial collector service with lots of transfer options to travel towards town. 

IMO this bus station rebuild is happening in the wrong order. We need a sense of when (or if) the Silver line will open before we spend this money.

Edited June 13, 2022 by kermit

[SydneycartonII]

[SydneycartonII]

Charlotte greenlights Hornets deal to extend team’s lease, build practice facility BY GENNA CONTINO UPDATED JUNE 13, 2022 9:28 PM

Charlotte City Council approved a deal Monday night that would renovate the Spectrum Center, build a practice facility for the Charlotte Hornets and extend the NBA team’s lease in the Queen City. In the deal, $215 million would come from the city’s tourism funds and go to the Spectrum Center’s renovations. The remaining $60 million for the NBA team’s practice facility would come from whoever receives naming rights for the creation of a sports and entertainment district around the Spectrum Center. The deal passed by a 10-1 vote…

 

PLANS FOR NEW HORNET FACILITY Early renderings show the new practice facility in a high-rise building. It would include two full basketball courts, expanded locker room space and a health care space. Renderings show the practice facility replacing the existing Charlotte Transportation Center, moving the bus facility underground. These renderings are not set in stone The rest of the tower will be filled with parking and undetermined development on the top floors. There will be a temporary bus station built during the several years of construction on the transit and practice facility building, documents presented to the economic development committee show.

Read more at: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article262442762.html#storylink=cpy

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by SydneycartonII

[Blue_Devil]

2 hours ago, SydneycartonII said:

Charlotte greenlights Hornets deal to extend team’s lease, build practice facility BY GENNA CONTINO UPDATED JUNE 13, 2022 9:28 PM

Charlotte City Council approved a deal Monday night that would renovate the Spectrum Center, build a practice facility for the Charlotte Hornets and extend the NBA team’s lease in the Queen City. In the deal, $215 million would come from the city’s tourism funds and go to the Spectrum Center’s renovations. The remaining $60 million for the NBA team’s practice facility would come from whoever receives naming rights for the creation of a sports and entertainment district around the Spectrum Center. The deal passed by a 10-1 vote…

 

PLANS FOR NEW HORNET FACILITY Early renderings show the new practice facility in a high-rise building. It would include two full basketball courts, expanded locker room space and a health care space. Renderings show the practice facility replacing the existing Charlotte Transportation Center, moving the bus facility underground. These renderings are not set in stone The rest of the tower will be filled with parking and undetermined development on the top floors. There will be a temporary bus station built during the several years of construction on the transit and practice facility building, documents presented to the economic development committee show.

Read more at: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article262442762.html#storylink=cpy

 

 

 

That rendering looks 500+ feet

[JRCLT]

That rendering looks 500+ feet

May we be spoiled once more after Riverside…

[J-Rob]

I believe that is just a conceptual rendering of the office tower.  I don't think they have an anchor tenant in place, so the height is likely not finalized.  I agree it would be nice to be spoiled once more though.

Edited June 14, 2022 by J-Rob

[KJHburg]

Biz Journal has an article today about the other partner in the CTC redevelopment Dart Interests.

""Dallas, Texas-based Dart Interests has one person in Charlotte now: Tyler Niess, who is leading the way on the real estate investment firm’s partnership with local developer White Point Partners on what is expected to be a $300 million to $400 million mixed-use building. It will house a below-ground main bus station run by the Charlotte Area Transit System, ground-level retail and a food hall, several floors of parking, a Charlotte Hornets practice center, and hotel and office segments above.  Chris Kelsey, Dart’s president, and Niess met with CBJ to discuss their plans for what would be a new transit hub — and, they hope, the linchpin for an arena district spilling down Brevard Street. The transportation center is across the street from Spectrum Center, the city-owned home of the NBA Hornets.  Kelsey said it may take several years but he anticipates adding Charlotte-based employees as Dart becomes more involved in the local real estate market.""

this Dart Interests is the real deal look at some their projects and they have some huge financial partner to back them (not sure whom)

https://dartinterests.com/

in the article they mention this project in Kansas City (KCMO) and this looks great.

https://www.powerandlightdistrict.com/

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2022/07/07/ctc-charlotte-transportation-center-redevelopment.html

Edited July 7, 2022 by KJHburg

[SydneyCarton]

[Guest]

[videtur quam contuor]

I understand Springfield has a monorail.

[KJHburg]

Here is a WFAE story about the underground bus terminal and consultants they are working with on it.

https://www.wfae.org/politics/2022-08-31/city-council-wants-options-for-new-bus-station-but-has-hired-a-firm-thats-decided-underground-is-best

sounds like CATS has decided but the city council is not so sure.   I am concerned what happened with one of these in Denver.  

Edited September 27, 2022 by KJHburg

[RANYC]

28 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Here is a WFAE story about the underground bus terminal and consultants they are working with on it.

https://www.wfae.org/politics/2022-08-31/city-council-wants-options-for-new-bus-station-but-has-hired-a-firm-thats-decided-underground-is-best

sounds like CATS has decided but the city council is not so sure.   I am concerned what happened with one of these in Denver.  

Councilmembers Tarik and Lawana questioned whether a hub should even be in uptown.  I think they’re asking the right question.  Before we make a massive capital investment, shouldn’t we diagnose what’s been reported as an extraordinary and catastrophic drop-off in bus ridership.  Perhaps diagnose and remedy that first before a big cap x investment?

[KJHburg]

4 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Councilmembers Tarik and Lawana questioned whether a hub should even be in uptown.  I think they’re asking the right question.  Before we make a massive capital investment, shouldn’t we diagnose what’s been reported as an extraordinary and catastrophic drop-off in bus ridership.  Perhaps diagnose and remedy that first before a big cap x investment?

I think it is a good question.  In  Houston they have multiple transit centers and I realize our metro  is 1/3 of the size of the Houston metro area but look how spread out they are.  They have 22 some have light rail connections others just buses.    Charlotte suburban transit centers could be Eastland area, Southpark, University Place, Ballantyne, Northlake Mall, near CLT Airport and that is just  off the top of my head thinking of major employment centers and or residential areas.    Why can't the new Gateway center be the uptown transit center and with locations spread around the city?  In Houston you dont have to go downtown to go to other transit centers.  

https://www.ridemetro.org/Pages/TransitCenter.aspx

[RANYC]

40 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

I think it is a good question.  In  Houston they have multiple transit centers and I realize our metro  is 1/3 of the size of the Houston metro area but look how spread out they are.  They have 22 some have light rail connections others just buses.    Charlotte suburban transit centers could be Eastland area, Southpark, University Place, Ballantyne, Northlake Mall, near CLT Airport and that is just  off the top of my head thinking of major employment centers and or residential areas.    Why can't the new Gateway center be the uptown transit center and with locations spread around the city?  In Houston you dont have to go downtown to go to other transit centers.  

https://www.ridemetro.org/Pages/TransitCenter.aspx

I’m inclined to agree with you.  Need many nodes to contemplate the fact that uptown isn’t the center of everyone’s mobility and if the real goal is getting way more people to make transit significant to their mobility, then a dispersed hub network makes sense.  SouthPark residents, albeit affluent, might see their community station as their civic asset, take pride in it, and ride it simply because it’s their own, or at least consider it more so than now.

Edited September 27, 2022 by RANYC

[abttown]

I also tend to agree.  Charlotte does have a fairly dense core, but we're pretty spread out as well and just one main transit hub in Uptown may not be the best option.  I absolutely believe putting this thing underground is a horrible idea that will lead to some sort of "no go" zone for everyone except the poor folks who are forced down there. I can picture that place being run down in very short order.

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by abttown
grammar

[kermit]

The design issue here is (IMO) secondary to the article documenting outright lying by John Lewis about the contract. He denied that he hired a subsidiary of the developer to design the transit center (when that is exactly what he did). Lying is clearly a pattern with Lewis -- don't forget the ghost bus / driver absence lies from just a couple months ago.

Edited September 27, 2022 by kermit

[RANYC]

6 minutes ago, kermit said:

The design issue here is (IMO) secondary to the article documenting outright lying by John Lewis about the contract. There is clearly a pattern with Lewis.

Yes, I want to apologize if my posts on here were ever construed as an expression of confidence in John Lewis.  Transit systems are indeed under strain, but hearing him speak, his broken line of reasoning, his fairly myopic views of the system’s terrain and context and interdependencies and specific, measurable goals gives me no confidence that he can right the ship.  He’d be well served reading a guide to preparing and presenting business cases to an executive committee, because what I’m seeing to date looks very lightweight.

[Madison Parkitect]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

I think it is a good question.  In  Houston they have multiple transit centers and I realize our metro  is 1/3 of the size of the Houston metro area but look how spread out they are.  They have 22 some have light rail connections others just buses.    Charlotte suburban transit centers could be Eastland area, Southpark, University Place, Ballantyne, Northlake Mall, near CLT Airport and that is just  off the top of my head thinking of major employment centers and or residential areas.    Why can't the new Gateway center be the uptown transit center and with locations spread around the city?  In Houston you dont have to go downtown to go to other transit centers.  

https://www.ridemetro.org/Pages/TransitCenter.aspx

Exactly right. There should be suburban hubs with necessary routes going into Uptown and others going to other parts of the city. Having a single hub in Uptown hurts the transit system and decreases usability for anyone who needs to go anywhere outside of Uptown, and if you ran routes into center city you'd still serve all the bus riders that go there.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Exactly right. There should be suburban hubs with necessary routes going into Uptown and others going to other parts of the city. Having a single hub in Uptown hurts the transit system and decreases usability for anyone who needs to go anywhere outside of Uptown, and if you ran routes into center city you'd still serve all the bus riders that go there.

I agree, in theory.

Unfortunately every cross-town bus route attempted has been a pretty resounding failure in terms of ridership. I do acknowledge that it takes a while to build a sustained and reliable service, but the crosstown routes we have had just don't provide any evidence that demand is sufficient to justify crosstown service (one of the strongest crosstown route pairs available is Southpark to UNCC, that route was running in 2000 and was cut in 2012(?) because of insufficient ridership).

We also need to think about how work has changed. Most suburban jobs are both VERY dispersed and also short-duration, even shorter now that the great-resignation has taken hold. What are the odds of being able to connect suburban residents to suburban jobs by bus in the best of times? What are those odds now that people are job hopping a couple times a year?

IMO we just lack ANY concentrations of suburban employment that are dense enough to be servable by bus that are not already, or planned to be, connected to rail. (Southpark being the exception that proves the rule). Crosstown bus service is a laudable goal in larger places, but I just don't see how Charlotte's intra-urban geography could justify it. 

I increasingly believe that the only transit card Charlotte has left to play is to go all in on rail transit corridors with the hope of making underlying land use denser in those corridors. (yes, I acknowledge that there are equity issues with this strategy). Once several rail corridors are established, some crosstown service connecting those rail lines may be useful, but until then I suspect crosstown will largely be a waste.

Edited September 27, 2022 by kermit

[queensguy06]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Here is a WFAE story about the underground bus terminal and consultants they are working with on it.

https://www.wfae.org/politics/2022-08-31/city-council-wants-options-for-new-bus-station-but-has-hired-a-firm-thats-decided-underground-is-best

sounds like CATS has decided but the city council is not so sure.   I am concerned what happened with one of these in Denver.  

The issue that arose here in Denver with the bus terminal downtown and vagrancy/homelessness/drug use was directly a result of economic issues stemming from the pandemic.  Union Station and the revitalized underground bus terminal was completed in 2014. None of the issues people have heard about over the past 6-12 months existed until we were deep into the pandemic and work from home was the main economic driver. It was a matter of circumstance - remove the vast majority of commuting (ALL commuting at one point as Denver/Colorado had a more stringent and lengthy city wide shut down than most cities/states), an increase in homelessness due to the pandemic, and the homeless and addiction affected populace moved in as there was little need for security since no one was utilizing mass transit. It doesn't matter where you are in the U.S.; if a large public urban space becomes abandoned (for all intents and purposes) and unused, the homeless population will take advantage of that. Just in the last 1-3 months policies including ticketed only passengers being allowed access to the bus terminal and increase in security have drastically reduced the issues that were present before. Additionally increased security on the RTD light rail system coupled with free system wide access for the month of August has increased ridership drastically compared to where we in December 2021. And with the return of commuters a lot of these issues are starting to resolve themselves. I have no doubt Union Station and the bus terminal will be back to the pre-pandemic atmosphere going into the holidays. Anecdotally, I was just at Union Station for dinner last Thursday and it was rather vibrant with no menacing element that I saw.

26 minutes ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Exactly right. There should be suburban hubs with necessary routes going into Uptown and others going to other parts of the city. Having a single hub in Uptown hurts the transit system and decreases usability for anyone who needs to go anywhere outside of Uptown, and if you ran routes into center city you'd still serve all the bus riders that go there.

I would imagine a single bus terminal is not the long term plan, but I could be wrong. Using Denver as an example, there are multiple bus transfer stations/terminals across the city and surrounding suburbs. There are two downtown alone that are only about a mile apart. The underground terminal at Union Station just happens to be the largest and is also the O&D hub for bus rapid transit to places like Boulder.

I for one still support the underground terminal in Charlotte - the benefits to places like Denver have far outweighed any negative issues/appearances that were completely situational due to an unprecedented event like a global pandemic. And the cities response to these issues, while overdue, have been appropriate and have mitigated any lingering doubt that Union Station is an unsafe place to be. 

[tozmervo]

2 hours ago, queensguy06 said:

I for one still support the underground terminal in Charlotte - the benefits to places like Denver have far outweighed any negative issues/appearances that were completely situational due to an unprecedented event like a global pandemic. And the cities response to these issues, while overdue, have been appropriate and have mitigated any lingering doubt that Union Station is an unsafe place to be. 

I am 100% against underground bus bays. Denver is just one example, but there are many, many attempts that I would also consider social failures. The Port Authority Terminal is often mentioned, and it's an above-ground deck. I have used it before, and it sucks.

The ultimate reality is that transportation hubs are subject to the same basic social dynamics as a city street. EYES. ON. THE. STREET. Trying to "hide" the system in any way just makes things worse. We have learned this over and over again and still ignore the reality. 

I agree with others that this should be used as an opportunity to take a big step in de-centralizing the system, but even in that scenario there should be some kind of reasonable transfer/central station scenario for Uptown. Let's say half the bus routes currently connecting at CTC were moved, you are still going to have north of 10 routes crossing paths in Uptown (not including express routes, which really only go CTC-adjacent). CATS also has to think about support infrastructure, like break areas and restrooms for staff, customer service, and staging for buses. 

[15895]

40 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

I am 100% against underground bus bays. Denver is just one example, but there are many, many attempts that I would also consider social failures. The Port Authority Terminal is often mentioned, and it's an above-ground deck. I have used it before, and it sucks.

The ultimate reality is that transportation hubs are subject to the same basic social dynamics as a city street. EYES. ON. THE. STREET. Trying to "hide" the system in any way just makes things worse. We have learned this over and over again and still ignore the reality. 

I agree with others that this should be used as an opportunity to take a big step in de-centralizing the system, but even in that scenario there should be some kind of reasonable transfer/central station scenario for Uptown. Let's say half the bus routes currently connecting at CTC were moved, you are still going to have north of 10 routes crossing paths in Uptown (not including express routes, which really only go CTC-adjacent). CATS also has to think about support infrastructure, like break areas and restrooms for staff, customer service, and staging for buses. 

 

The vestiges of the former bus system is still around uptown from when there was no single bus hub and the buses stops were along Tryon and Trade (hence the nicer uptown bus shelters)

[queensguy06]

36 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

I am 100% against underground bus bays. Denver is just one example, but there are many, many attempts that I would also consider social failures. The Port Authority Terminal is often mentioned, and it's an above-ground deck. I have used it before, and it sucks.

The ultimate reality is that transportation hubs are subject to the same basic social dynamics as a city street. EYES. ON. THE. STREET. Trying to "hide" the system in any way just makes things worse. We have learned this over and over again and still ignore the reality. 

I agree with others that this should be used as an opportunity to take a big step in de-centralizing the system, but even in that scenario there should be some kind of reasonable transfer/central station scenario for Uptown. Let's say half the bus routes currently connecting at CTC were moved, you are still going to have north of 10 routes crossing paths in Uptown (not including express routes, which really only go CTC-adjacent). CATS also has to think about support infrastructure, like break areas and restrooms for staff, customer service, and staging for buses. 

The Port Authority Terminal is not an apples to apples comparison. Originally opened in the '50s I believe, it has had several additions over the decades and has become a monstrosity and outlier of underground/bus transit hubs with 223 individual bus bays/islands. We're talking about a 15+ bus bay in Charlotte. 

I can certainly agree that some underground bus stations/terminals have been less than useful or even outright poorly designed. Those tend to be standalone stations built without any consideration or implementation as part of a greater planned project or area. For every poorly designed terminal I could point to one that is properly designed and incorporated to the surrounding grid/neighborhood. I think the greater Seoul metropolitan area is an example with new, under construction, and proposed underground bus terminals such as Gwanggyo, Jamsil, and Gangnam stations as examples. And I would most certainly point to Denver as good example when taking the 10,000ft perspective of it's entire lifespan and not the recent issues mentioned in my post above. The entire LoDo area has been revitalized and seen an enormous amount of new construction since 2014 and it was all based around the core construction of a multi-modal facility at Union Station that included the underground bus terminal which is a key component of the project. According to RTD, during peak rush hour a bus leaves the Union Station terminal every 48 seconds with minimal/no impact to traffic congestion or street level pedestrian connectivity that I have ever seen or encountered.

Just like any form of transit/transit station/TOD, there will be examples of those that have been planned and implemented as successes and those that failed to hit the mark/meet the needs of the area. I would contend that most poor examples are ones that have been in service for 15+ years.  And by following the blueprints of newer stations/projects that have worked, Charlotte can implement that into a new development with similar positive results.