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Church Street Plaza | 32-Story Hotel/Apt & Re-work of Former CSS Retail/Event Space [Phases 2/3 Planning Phase]


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23 minutes ago, orange87 said:

I think the fact that it doesn't look like literally every single building built here within the last 10-15 years is refreshing in and of itself. I love the height. I love the different look. I love the location. I really hope this gets built, and soon.

Only if you move back to town! <eg>

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7 minutes ago, Musikprince said:

I would say an improvement over the second rendering. The original version was actually pretty sweet and more slender!

Interesting. Either way I just hope it gets done. Thee first one was wild to me but I would have welcomed it downtown compared to everything that's been built recently because it wasn't boring at least.

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2 hours ago, Musikprince said:

I would say an improvement over the second rendering. The original version was actually pretty sweet and more slender!

Yep. The first rendering was the best looking imo. It was sleek, modern, and unique for Orlando. It would've been eye-catching from I-4. 

I think we can all agree the second rendering was the worst. Just awful. 

And now this newest rendering looks really good, it's just something I'd more so expect to see in other cities. Hopefully it gets built as-is, though, and ASAP. 

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Height aside -- I would be more excited with how this building interacts with the yet to be built food hall and an integrated Sunrail station. 

If this were truly a mixed used office and residential / retail component that has access through Church Street, this may be the development that finally pushes CSS into a new era with some consistent pedestrian activity.

 

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26 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Height aside -- I would be more excited with how this building interacts with the yet to be built food hall and an integrated Sunrail station. 

If this were truly a mixed used office and residential / retail component that has access through Church Street, this may be the development that finally pushes CSS into a new era with some consistent pedestrian activity.

 

With that said,  do we know if they will be imploding the building that they are scheduled to build on, or will they build on top of and around what is already there? We thought a while back that they were conducting pest control to ready themselves for demolition. 

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31 minutes ago, Musikprince said:

With that said,  do we know if they will be imploding the building that they are scheduled to build on, or will they build on top of and around what is already there? We thought a while back that they were conducting pest control to ready themselves for demolition. 

I personally think they are going to dismantler the Presidential Ballroom get all the good stuff from it then raze it.

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55 minutes ago, Musikprince said:

With that said,  do we know if they will be imploding the building that they are scheduled to build on, or will they build on top of and around what is already there? We thought a while back that they were conducting pest control to ready themselves for demolition. 

It’s confirmed that the Presidential ballroom is to be demolished and replaced by this development while the Bumby Arcade and Orchard Garden will remain and incorporated into the food hall. 

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55 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

It’s confirmed that the Presidential ballroom is to be demolished and replaced by this development while the Bumby Arcade and Orchard Garden will remain and incorporated into the food hall. 

Ok thanks, the food hall part of things was the confusing part for some of us that don't know the attachment of the hall with the ballroom.  But that clears it up!

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On 8/24/2021 at 4:02 PM, Urbo said:

Interesting design. Glad they decided to incorporate residential into the use of this projects. Just wish they were condos!

I'd imagine some of these luxury apartments might convert to condos when demand picks up again.

 

On 8/24/2021 at 4:33 PM, IAmFloridaBorn said:

But I've never personally seen condos be mixed used with office  but that would be interesting.

The Solaire at the Plaza: condo, office & commercial/restaurant space.  @spenser1058's favorite building :tw_naughty:

Other types:

Apartment: One Eleven/Aspire (FKA Dynetech): residential, office & commercial/restaurant space.

Hotel: SunTrust Plaza at Church Street Station: hotel, office & commercial/restaurant space.

These are my favorite kinds of mixed-use buildings in the CBD (as seen in larger cities) because in theory they provide round-the-clock activity with various demographics and help support the retail components.

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19 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

I'd imagine some of these luxury apartments might convert to condos when demand picks up again.

 

The Solaire at the Plaza: condo, office & commercial/restaurant space.  @spenser1058's favorite building :tw_naughty:

Other types:

Apartment: One Eleven/Aspire (FKA Dynetech): residential, office & commercial/restaurant space.

Hotel: SunTrust Plaza at Church Street Station: hotel, office & commercial/restaurant space.

These are my favorite kinds of mixed-use buildings in the CBD (as seen in larger cities) because in theory they provide round-the-clock activity with various demographics and help support the retail components.

Well to my point  Dyntech building are apartments. Not Condos unless there were built as Condos initially? 

And Solaire/Plaza is spread across 3 buildings. 

My thought was having seeing actual condos (not apartments)  with office space as a mixed use in one single highrise building.

Not in Orlando anyway.

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9 minutes ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Well to my point  Dyntech building are apartments. Not Condos unless there were built as Condos initially? 

And Solaire/Plaza is spread across 3 buildings. 

My thought was having seeing actual condos (not apartments)  with office space as a mixed use in one single highrise building.

Not in Orlando anyway.

Orlando is somewhat unique in a couple of ways. One, desirable single-family dwellings are within easy reach of downtown. The pricing is often comparable (we won’t even talk about condo fees), so as one gets into one’s career (and especially as they have kids) and have the money to buy, houses are usually the preferred option.

That, by the way, is something most cities don’t have and is a huge plus for Orlando. In most cities, the urban renewal of the 1950s-1970s all but demolished close-in neighborhoods. That didn’t happen in Orlando for a variety of reasons (I wrote a 15-page paper on it in college and I won’t bore you with that here) and then we had a mayor who stopped the real estate industrial complex from leveling those neighborhoods to pocket quick cash later on.

The first thing often brought up is “what about Miami?” Miami’s different for a couple of reasons. First, they’re running out of room. Miami’s got to go vertical to grow since they’re hemmed in by the ocean on one side and The Everglades (which is protected) on the other. In Orlando, that problem doesn’t exist (as Lake Nona shows).

Also, the international buyers in Miami from Latin America are generally looking for pied-a-terres and that kind of urban lifestyle.

Compare that with the international buyers in Orlando. They come here for the theme parks, not our relatively small downtown, and often (especially among the British, our largest international  market other than Canada, at least prior to COVID ) prefer the suburbs (is it a coincidence the developer of Lake Nona is from the UK? I think not).

Maybe all that will change, but it hasn’t yet.

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4 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Orlando is somewhat unique in a couple of ways. One, desirable single-family dwellings are within easy reach of downtown. The pricing is often comparable (we won’t even talk about condo fees), so as one gets into one’s career (and especially as they have kids) and have the money to buy, houses are usually the preferred option.

That, by the way, is something most cities don’t have and is a huge plus for Orlando. In most cities, the urban renewal of the 1950s-1970s all but demolished close-in neighborhoods. That didn’t happen in Orlando for a variety of reasons (I wrote a 15-page paper on it in college and I won’t bore you with that here) and then we had a mayor who stopped the real estate industrial complex from leveling those neighborhoods to pocket quick cash later on.

The first thing often brought up is “what about Miami?” Miami’s different for a couple of reasons. First, they’re running out of room. Miami’s got to go vertical to grow since they’re hemmed in by the ocean on one side and The Everglades (which is protected) on the other. In Orlando, that problem doesn’t exist (as Lake Nona shows).

Also, the international buyers in Miami from Latin America are generally looking for pied-a-terres and that kind of urban lifestyle.

Compare that with the international buyers in Orlando. They come here for the theme parks, not our relatively small downtown, and often (especially among the British, our largest international  market other than Canada, at least prior to COVID ) prefer the suburbs (is it a coincidence the developer of Lake Nona is from the UK? I think not).

Maybe all that will change, but it hasn’t yet.

I completely understand. I just thought and my head that I've never seen it actually happen. I don't care too much about making Orlando as tall as Miami or anything like that but it would be nice if Orlando tried to build a little more efficiently been using every single available piece of land. The changes to making an area more urban and efficient starts with thinking for forward progress in Orlando does not do that they build for the now and it shows.

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1 minute ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

I completely understand. I just thought and my head that I've never seen it actually happen. I don't care too much about making Orlando as tall as Miami or anything like that but it would be nice if Orlando tried to build a little more efficiently been using every single available piece of land. The changes to making an area more urban and efficient starts with thinking for forward progress in Orlando does not do that they build for the now and it shows.

As long as Orlando is controlled by the real estate industrial complex, that won’t happen. Our history is sprawl.

We have the political demographics to begin changing that (although as long as the Tallahassee Idiots keep devastating home rule to line their pockets, that’s harder than it used to be), but our local politicians are still following the old model as well. 

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33 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Orlando is somewhat unique in a couple of ways. One, desirable single-family dwellings are within easy reach of downtown. The pricing is often comparable (we won’t even talk about condo fees), so as one gets into one’s career (and especially as they have kids) and have the money to buy, houses are usually the preferred option.

That, by the way, is something most cities don’t have and is a huge plus for Orlando. In most cities, the urban renewal of the 1950s-1970s all but demolished close-in neighborhoods. That didn’t happen in Orlando for a variety of reasons (I wrote a 15-page paper on it in college and I won’t bore you with that here) and then we had a mayor who stopped the real estate industrial complex from leveling those neighborhoods to pocket quick cash later on.

The first thing often brought up is “what about Miami?” Miami’s different for a couple of reasons. First, they’re running out of room. Miami’s got to go vertical to grow since they’re hemmed in by the ocean on one side and The Everglades (which is protected) on the other. In Orlando, that problem doesn’t exist (as Lake Nona shows).

Also, the international buyers in Miami from Latin America are generally looking for pied-a-terres and that kind of urban lifestyle.

Compare that with the international buyers in Orlando. They come here for the theme parks, not our relatively small downtown, and often (especially among the British, our largest international  market other than Canada, at least prior to COVID ) prefer the suburbs (is it a coincidence the developer of Lake Nona is from the UK? I think not).

Maybe all that will change, but it hasn’t yet.

Well said and good information. Always appreciate your historical insights.

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1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Orlando is somewhat unique in a couple of ways. One, desirable single-family dwellings are within easy reach of downtown. The pricing is often comparable (we won’t even talk about condo fees), so as one gets into one’s career (and especially as they have kids) and have the money to buy, houses are usually the preferred option.

That, by the way, is something most cities don’t have and is a huge plus for Orlando. In most cities, the urban renewal of the 1950s-1970s all but demolished close-in neighborhoods. That didn’t happen in Orlando for a variety of reasons (I wrote a 15-page paper on it in college and I won’t bore you with that here) and then we had a mayor who stopped the real estate industrial complex from leveling those neighborhoods to pocket quick cash later on.

The first thing often brought up is “what about Miami?” Miami’s different for a couple of reasons. First, they’re running out of room. Miami’s got to go vertical to grow since they’re hemmed in by the ocean on one side and The Everglades (which is protected) on the other. In Orlando, that problem doesn’t exist (as Lake Nona shows).

Also, the international buyers in Miami from Latin America are generally looking for pied-a-terres and that kind of urban lifestyle.

Compare that with the international buyers in Orlando. They come here for the theme parks, not our relatively small downtown, and often (especially among the British, our largest international  market other than Canada, at least prior to COVID ) prefer the suburbs (is it a coincidence the developer of Lake Nona is from the UK? I think not).

Maybe all that will change, but it hasn’t yet.

I agree the close proximity of single family neighborhoods to downtown makes Orlando very unique. But it’s also a drawback when you consider the very limited height restriction for downtown buildings. There is no where for urban development to expand since it can only go up so high vertically. Orlando would benefit greatly if there were  a “midtown” area that could focus on cleaner, newer, modern urban development and focus on attracting high end consumers. It’s hard to mix the grit and current crowd of downtown with more sophisticated and cultured individuals who want an urban lifestyle but are not comfortable in the downtown atmosphere. Miami (Brickell and Downtown) and Atlanta (Midtown and Downtown) succeed in offering a more diverse urban lifestyle but Orlando seems to only offer one urban way of living.

Also, I think it’s not that people just come here and prefer the suburbs (although many people do). I think there is nothing so attractive happening in downtown that makes people say, “I want to live close to that!”  People choose to live in buckhead Atlanta because that’s where the best shopping in the region is. People live in Midtown Atlanta because of the unparalleled arts and design culture. People choose Brickell because it’s the financial epicenter and jobs are all around (in addition to great entertainment and retail). People live in the District (D.C.) because of the history, architecture, museums and culture. In my opinion downtown has to offer better experiences and environments for people to leave the main attraction of the theme parks. There’s no regional retail destination in downtown, the art scene is rather  mediocre, and the entertainment options don’t compare to I-drive and the theme parks. What is downtown going to bring to make people say “I can’t live to far away from that!”

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55 minutes ago, Urbo said:

I agree the close proximity of single family neighborhoods to downtown makes Orlando very unique. But it’s also a drawback when you consider the very limited height restriction for downtown buildings. There is no where for urban development to expand since it can only go up so high vertically. Orlando would benefit greatly if there were  a “midtown” area that could focus on cleaner, newer, modern urban development and focus on attracting high end consumers. It’s hard to mix the grit and current crowd of downtown with more sophisticated and cultured individuals who want an urban lifestyle but are not comfortable in the downtown atmosphere. Miami (Brickell and Downtown) and Atlanta (Midtown and Downtown) succeed in offering a more diverse urban lifestyle but Orlando seems to only offer one urban way of living.

Also, I think it’s not that people just come here and prefer the suburbs (although many people do). I think there is nothing so attractive happening in downtown that makes people say, “I want to live close to that!”  People choose to live in buckhead Atlanta because that’s where the best shopping in the region is. People live in Midtown Atlanta because of the unparalleled arts and design culture. People choose Brickell because it’s the financial epicenter and jobs are all around (in addition to great entertainment and retail). People live in the District (D.C.) because of the history, architecture, museums and culture. In my opinion downtown has to offer better experiences and environments for people to leave the main attraction of the theme parks. There’s no regional retail destination in downtown, the art scene is rather  mediocre, and the entertainment options don’t compare to I-drive and the theme parks. What is downtown going to bring to make people say “I can’t live to far away from that!”

The strength of Orlando is its neighborhoods. They’re quite well-defined, as are adjoining towns like Winter Park and Winter Garden.

There was a move to make downtown Orlando unique starting in 1980 but that ended in 2002. Today, build whatever you want, no matter how generic it may be. We’ve lost the vision of what downtown should be.

You’re also entirely correct that one of the onetime signature purposes of downtown,   shopping, has diminished radically in the current era. Yes, retail’s a challenging environment today, but that’s just a reason to work smarter and harder to find solutions. Instead, we’ve just ignored it.

Until someone in the city actually takes the time to decide exactly what we want downtown to be and what would make it unique, it will continue to be the rudderless , sputtering thing it is today.

As to the height requirement, the last time someone actually followed through to change it was the construction of Sun Bank Center (yep, the height restriction was lower before they challenged it). If the need actually comes about to challenge it, it can be done (I know it can because a good friend of mine who worked for then-US Senator Paula Hawkins worked on it as part of a full-court press by Sun and Lincoln). It is by no means fixed. The truth is, a lot of developers make a lot of noise about it, but don’t follow through.

Frankly, height is not downtown’s biggest problem right now - it’s not even in the top 10. Keep in mind, if height’s so vital, why is DC (whose height restriction is a lot lower than ours) one of the country’s fastest growing MSAs?

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20 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

The strength of Orlando is its neighborhoods. They’re quite well-defined, as are adjoining towns like Winter Park and Winter Garden.

There was a move to make downtown Orlando unique starting in 1980 but that ended in 2002. Today, build whatever you want, no matter how generic it may be. We’ve lost the vision of what downtown should be.

You’re also entirely correct that one of the onetime signature purposes of downtown,   shopping, has diminished radically in the current era. Yes, retail’s a challenging environment today, but that’s just a reason to work smarter and harder to find solutions. Instead, we’ve just ignored it.

Until someone in the city actually takes the time to decide what exactly what we want downtown to be and what would make it unique, it will continue to be the rudderless , sputtering thing it is today.

As to the height requirement, the last time someone actually followed through to change it was the construction of Sun Bank Center (yep, the height restriction was lower before they challenged it). If the need actually comes about to challenge it, it can be done (I know it can because a good friend of mine who worked for then-US Senator Paula Hawkins worked on it as part of a full-court press by Sun and Lincoln). It is by no means fixed. The truth is, a lot of developers make a lot of noise about it, but don’t follow through.

Frankly, height is not downtown’s biggest problem right now - it’s not even in the top 10. Keep in mind, if height’s so vital, why is DC (whose height restriction is a lot lower than ours) one of the country’s fastest growing MSAs?

Totally agree with you. Orlando’s brand is Disney. Downtown needs a strong vision and to brand itself outside of just the municipal center. For Orlando to be one of the most visited places in the world, downtown is losing its opportunity to capitalize on that notoriety by not offering a unique experience for residents and tourist. 
 

i would slightly disagree with the height priority for Orlando. Not saying it’s the number one priority as I think walkabity, better architecture  and transportation are greater priorities for Orlando. But D.C. is unique in the fact that it is arguably the most masterfully planned city in the world. Almost every street was carefully thought out. And it’s street network and urban fabric is so expansive. It’s density stretches for miles. There is a very small percentage of single family homes in the district. It doesn’t need the height because it’s over 60 square miles of pure density. Again, I don’t think height is necessary for good urbanism but I just think downtown orlando doesn’t have a capable street grid and size to limit the heights of buildings in an already sprawling metro area. We need more residents here and without greater heights we will run out of space in downtown bring the amount of residents needed to great a vibrant and dynamic urban setting. 

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6 hours ago, Urbo said:

I agree the close proximity of single family neighborhoods to downtown makes Orlando very unique. But it’s also a drawback when you consider the very limited height restriction for downtown buildings. There is no where for urban development to expand since it can only go up so high vertically. Orlando would benefit greatly if there were  a “midtown” area that could focus on cleaner, newer, modern urban development and focus on attracting high end consumers. It’s hard to mix the grit and current crowd of downtown with more sophisticated and cultured individuals who want an urban lifestyle but are not comfortable in the downtown atmosphere. Miami (Brickell and Downtown) and Atlanta (Midtown and Downtown) succeed in offering a more diverse urban lifestyle but Orlando seems to only offer one urban way of living.

Also, I think it’s not that people just come here and prefer the suburbs (although many people do). I think there is nothing so attractive happening in downtown that makes people say, “I want to live close to that!”  People choose to live in buckhead Atlanta because that’s where the best shopping in the region is. People live in Midtown Atlanta because of the unparalleled arts and design culture. People choose Brickell because it’s the financial epicenter and jobs are all around (in addition to great entertainment and retail). People live in the District (D.C.) because of the history, architecture, museums and culture. In my opinion downtown has to offer better experiences and environments for people to leave the main attraction of the theme parks. There’s no regional retail destination in downtown, the art scene is rather  mediocre, and the entertainment options don’t compare to I-drive and the theme parks. What is downtown going to bring to make people say “I can’t live to far away from that!”

Orlando has a huge north-south urban strip to work with.  I think it's very comparable to Atlanta on a smaller scale.  Also, Atlanta has tons of single family just east of Piedmont.

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On 8/27/2021 at 1:42 PM, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Well to my point  Dyntech building are apartments. Not Condos unless there were built as Condos initially? 

And Solaire/Plaza is spread across 3 buildings. 

My thought was having seeing actual condos (not apartments)  with office space as a mixed use in one single highrise building.

Not in Orlando anyway.

well, I would count Dynetech  in that category anyway because Waverly was built as an apartment building which was then converted to condos just before the Boom.  So all of these towers including 55W are all condos waiting to be converted as I see it.  Like in football with Texas and FSU, the CIW or Coach In Waiting...these are Condos In Waiting...

On 8/27/2021 at 10:12 PM, gibby said:

Orlando has a huge north-south urban strip to work with.  I think it's very comparable to Atlanta on a smaller scale.  Also, Atlanta has tons of single family just east of Piedmont.

Absolutely.  That N-S urban strip is pretty expansive and popular.  For example, those condos/townhomes on Grant St. next to Sodo just finished a second phase of units I believe; the first phase having been built a few short years ago.  Also, on the northern end near Advent, they are nearing completion of that other residential building just across from the hospital.  Earthfare is back open now for the past 2-3 months at Gore.  

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