The Edge | 32-Story Mixed Use + SunRail Station [Proposed/Demo Underway]

[jack]

What is church street going for? That is the high water mark. 

[AmIReal]

Despite Hamburger Mary’s Opposition, Orlando City Council Approves Church Street Development Project

https://www.wmfe.org/despite-hamburger-marys-opposition-orlando-city-council-approves-church-street-development-project/150606

 

[jrs2]

7 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Despite Hamburger Mary’s Opposition, Orlando City Council Approves Church Street Development Project

https://www.wmfe.org/despite-hamburger-marys-opposition-orlando-city-council-approves-church-street-development-project/150606

 

what dimension did we slide into where Hamburger Mary's complains that the new development will hurt it's business because of new competition and Crescent City Center does the same thing against X Orlando? And that these are considered legit gripes?

OMG.  Seriously?  with Hamburger Mary's logic, the rest of Church Street should stay vacant so they get all the business.

F them.

[spenser1058]

I can only speak to the Mary’s issue.

When what is one of the most singularly successful downtown businesses gets run over by a project that may or may not ever come to be (and in which most of the ground floor retail in such projects has proved a bust), an effective city government would have moved heaven and earth to broker a compromise. Instead, as he always has, Buddy just caved to Lincoln. The only reason he even backtracked a tad here is because a significant portion of his coalition raised holy hell.

A similar situation arose in midtown Atlanta when Southern Bell, one of the most powerful companies in the city and the region, wanted to tear down the beloved Fox Theater because it was in the way of their new tower. Had Buddy been mayor, it would have been “sorry, not sorry” and one of the true gems of that city would have been destroyed. Instead, in a truly amazing come to Jesus meeting between polite Atlanta society, upstart urbanistas and first black mayor Maynard Jackson, they figured out a way to have their cake and eat it, too (they saved the Fox and just altered the plans for the tower a little). That’s what a mayor of all the people does and it’s a role Buddy could care less about.

That’s not even mentioning that the new tower is in no way in keeping with the spirit of the landmarked area.

But that’s the difference between how real cities work and one led by a mayor totally in thrall to corporate interests. That’s also why even those same corporate interests have complained  “Downtown is dead”.

Edited April 1, 2020 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

42 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I can only speak to the Mary’s issue.

When what is one of the most singularly successful downtown businesses gets run over by a project that may or may not ever come to be (and in which most of the ground floor retail in such projects has proved a bust), an effective city government would have moved heaven and earth to broker a compromise. Instead, as he always has, Buddy just caved to Lincoln. The only reason he even backtracked a tad here is because a significant portion of his coalition raised holy hell.

A similar situation arose in midtown Atlanta when Southern Bell, one of the most powerful companies in the city and the region, wanted to tear down the beloved Fox Theater because it was in the way of their new tower. Had Buddy been mayor, it would have been “sorry, not sorry” and one of the true gems of that city would have been destroyed. Instead, in a truly amazing come to Jesus meeting between polite Atlanta society, upstart urbanistas and first black mayor Maynard Jackson, they figured out a way to have their cake and eat it, too (they saved the Fox and just altered the plans for the tower a little). That’s what a mayor of all the people does and it’s a role Buddy could care less about.

That’s not even mentioning that the new tower is in no way in keeping with the spirit of the landmarked area.

But that’s the difference between how real cities work and one led by a mayor totally in thrall to corporate interests. That’s also why even those same corporate interests have complained  “Downtown is dead”.

maybe I spoke too soon.  in caving, what did the city allow to be done?  the article stated Bumby arcade food hall or something like that. is that where he caved?  I ask b/c I didn't track any of this beyond just the tower and presidential ballroom.  thx.

[spenser1058]

11 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

maybe I spoke too soon.  in caving, what did the city allow to be done?  the article stated Bumby arcade food hall or something like that. is that where he caved?  I ask b/c I didn't track any of this beyond just the tower and presidential ballroom.  thx.

My understanding is Mary’s just needs to move and, if they’re lucky, the city may(!) offer assistance.

This all gets back to a problem downtown which has a rousing “Amen chorus” on this forum: if you propose a big tall project, little or no thought need be given to what actually happens at street level.

That’s just 1960’s thinking when architects designed buildings to look good to cars going by on the interstate rather than what sort of interaction took place at street level. (Houston in particular was infamous for that.)

What’s humorous is that what got Orlando’s downtown back on the map in the first place has been how user-friendly it is. Because of our decentralized economy, our downtown is never going to be the tallest or biggest. What it was on its way to being, however, was a place people wanted to live in, walk around in and play in, not just drive by from a half-mile away and say, “what a great building!” This is undoing 40 years of work but, in fact, it has become the default policy of this administration.

Edited April 1, 2020 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

Another unintended irony here is that Mary went up against Bob Snow, the father of our downtown reinvention. Mary managed to survive the recession and actually thrive coming out the other side while Bob had his hat handed to him. Truly a David vs. Goliath story (albeit David was in drag). And yet, Lincoln, who also made a go at retail downtown but abandoned ship when the going got tough, is being embraced while the folks who actually made it work against all odds are being shown the door. It would be humorous if not so stupid. This is why we can’t have nice things.

Edited April 1, 2020 by spenser1058

[gibby]

I'm lost.  Is there some significant demo of Church Street Station that was approved other than that crap ballroom?  The private tenant issue seems to be miles away from being relevant to this approval.

[Jernigan]

I have no more sympathy for a restaurant complaining about more competition than I do about a high  rise resident complaining that the next high rise will block their view...and at the end of the day, their a tenant.   I rented a house in Eola Heights that had a nice little cut through to an adjacent street and one day the owner put a gate up to keep other drivers from scooting through the property.  I didn’t call my commissioner over it.  Good grief.

[spenser1058]

24 minutes ago, gibby said:

I'm lost.  Is there some significant demo of Church Street Station that was approved other than that crap ballroom?  The private tenant issue seems to be miles away from being relevant to this approval.

It seems, in the process of design, Lincoln has obstructed its ADA access and other issues. 

Step away from the technicalities for a moment. Here we have a beloved, successful downtown business in a historic location being pushed aside by a modern structure and a developer who, despite their cover story, is moving away from the whole reason Church Street was landmarked in the first place and does not have a successful track record of retail places people downtown would want to visit.

[spenser1058]

9 minutes ago, Jernigan said:

I have no more sympathy for a restaurant complaining about more competition than I do about a high  rise resident complaining that the next high rise will block their view...and at the end of the day, their a tenant.   I rented a house in Eola Heights that had a nice little cut through to an adjacent street and one day the owner put a gate up to keep other drivers from scooting through the property.  I didn’t call my commissioner over it.  Good grief.

So, we get another soulless structure that can’t keep its  retail space full because no one wants to be there and no one can afford it, just like at The Plaza. Why do we continue to miss the point? You’re turning downtown into a taller version of Maitland Center. How many people take nice leisurely strolls and want to live there?

 Now this food hall may be the next reincarnation of East End Market. More likely, it will end up like the glorified food court that crashed and burned at Sun Bank Center. Developers with big projects have a poor record of designing spaces people want to spend time, at least in this market.

Edited April 2, 2020 by spenser1058

[orange87]

I'd rather have a 32-story tower than a hamburger joint. Sorry, not sorry.

[gibby]

I'm expecting the new building to breathe life into CCS.  Won't there be an entrance through the Bumby Arcade to get to the new building?  Also, with the ballroom gone, folks will be able to walk along the west side of the tracks from South to Church, which should be a huge help and the southbound Sunrail station can finally move to its correct location.

[jack]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

It seems, in the process of design, Lincoln has obstructed its ADA access and other issues. 

Step away from the technicalities for a moment. Here we have a beloved, successful downtown business in a historic location being pushed aside by a modern structure and a developer who, despite their cover story, is moving away from the whole reason Church Street was landmarked in the first place and does not have a successful track record of retail places people downtown would want to visit.

I have not been following this story and am having a hard time catching up. 

Based on what you are saying, the only real issue to me is the ADA access in regards to city hall. The rest are nice to haves but maybe there is more to it. Did they file an official complaint with the City or file a lawsuit? 

 

Okay, I read the Daily City article. Definitely not within the city's scope of governance.  

Edited April 2, 2020 by jack

[jgardnerucf]

Just move down the street when Wahlburgers wraps up. Seems logical and simple. But what the hell do I know.

[popsiclebrandon]

It seemed early on Lincoln made a bunch of crappy moves toward Mary's including cutting off their ADA access which prob should have been fined.

But their gripes about competition ring really hollow to me. Everyone deals with that. The city can't and shouldn't get involved in that stuff.

[Jernigan]

12 hours ago, orange87 said:

I'd rather have a 32-story tower than a hamburger joint. Sorry, not sorry.

A hamburger chain, by the way.  

https://www.hamburgermarys.com/locations/

 

[codypet]

9 hours ago, popsiclebrandon said:

It seemed early on Lincoln made a bunch of crappy moves toward Mary's including cutting off their ADA access which prob should have been fined.

But their gripes about competition ring really hollow to me. Everyone deals with that. The city can't and shouldn't get involved in that stuff.

IIRC Mary's lease requires restroom and ADA access through Bumby Arcade as well as use of the patio east of the restaurant to access the BOH.  Lincoln is severing access to all of that either during construction or part of the final design which puts Mary's out of compliance.  They apparently were working on deal where Lincoln would buy out the lease for Mary's and they'd find a new place to move.   At some point last summer Mary's said Lincoln stopped returning their calls and started just doing the work, putting Mary's out of compliance at which point Lincoln started saying Mary's was out of compliance with their lease and therefore needed to move.   I believe that was what the issue was.

[prahaboheme]

13 hours ago, Jernigan said:

I have no more sympathy for a restaurant complaining about more competition than I do about a high  rise resident complaining that the next high rise will block their view...and at the end of the day, their a tenant.   I rented a house in Eola Heights that had a nice little cut through to an adjacent street and one day the owner put a gate up to keep other drivers from scooting through the property.  I didn’t call my commissioner over it.  Good grief.

If Hamburger Marys were complaining about competition maybe your “point” would be discernible.

[Uncommon]

Yikes, this is getting contentious.

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, prahaboheme said:

If Hamburger Marys were complaining about competition maybe your “point” would be discernible.

FYI, per the article, they did.

12 hours ago, jgardnerucf said:

Just move down the street when Wahlburgers wraps up. Seems logical and simple. But what the hell do I know.

are they closing?

[spenser1058]

23 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

FYI, per the article, they did.

are they closing?

That’s the word. But giving up something special for what’s very likely an overpriced spot in a forgettable sterile box (notice how nothing seems to stick there?) will be unfortunate.

Since the Dexter’s is going nowhere fast, I’d love to see them in TP (word on the street, however, is that GJ’s owners are just as happy with that spot empty until the end of time - a shame on two counts: first,being empty does nothing for the block and second because of the history there as Orlando’s first Publix).

Otoh, if that doesn’t work, the Dr. Phillips folks have some true mid-century gems just waiting to be redone across the street from PH. Obviously, the demographic would work and that stretch of OBT could be amazing with some TLC. That said, the DP folks have come kicking and screaming over the years from outright homophobic to deciding we’re not going away so they may have to get used to us (ironic, given the nature of one of Doc’s sons, but I digress), so we’ll see.

More to the point is once again we’re tossing something downtown that works for more overpriced, sterile retail boxes and wondering why downtown’s meh for much of the day. But, as they say, the definition of madness....

What I can say for sure is that I’m glad I left SunTrust years ago because that shoehorn of a space on a horribly non-pedestrian friendly stretch there at CSP1 would send me running for a new bank.

But, we think that’s progress, right?!?

 

’

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

11 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

That’s the word. But giving up something special for what’s very likely an overpriced spot in a forgettable sterile box (notice how nothing seems to stick there?) will be unfortunate.

Since the Dexter’s is going nowhere fast, I’d love to see them in TP (word on the street, however, is that GJ’s owners are just as happy with that spot empty until the end of time - a shame on two counts: first,being empty does nothing for the block and second because of the history there as Orlando’s first Publix).

Otoh, if that doesn’t work, the Dr. Phillips folks have some true mid-century gems just waiting to be redone across the street from PH. Obviously, the demographic would work and that stretch of OBT could be amazing with some TLC. That said, the DP folks have come kicking and screaming over the years from outright homophobic to deciding we’re not going away so they may have to get used to us (ironic, given the nature of one of Doc’s sons, but I digress), so we’ll see.

More to the point is once again we’re tossing something downtown that works for more overpriced, sterile retail boxes and wondering why downtown’s meh for much of the day. But, as they say, the definition of madness....

What I can say for sure is that I’m glad I left SunTrust years ago because that shoehorn of a space on a horribly non-pedestrian friendly stretch there at CSP1 would send me running for a new bank.

But, we think that’s progress, right?!?

GJ's?  PH?    

Small businesses getting rolled over by big business interests is nothing new and certainly not peculiar to Orlando.

If "HM" has a good product and a loyal following, it really shouldn't matter if they're a block farther east on Church Street.

And it is, afterall, a higher profile location with signage opportunity right on Orange and Church.

Could end up being the best thing that ever happened to them.

[spenser1058]

4 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

GJ's?  PH?    

Small businesses getting rolled over by big business interests is nothing new and certainly not peculiar to Orlando.

If "HM" has a good product and a loyal following, it really shouldn't matter if they're a block farther east on Church Street.

And it is, afterall, a higher profile location with signage opportunity right on Orange and Church.

Could end up being the best thing that ever happened to them.

Sure didn’t work for Wahlburgers did it?  (not to mention the other locations that have faded in that corner over the years. But that’s ok, Lincoln’s going to build something just like it and the retail at The Plaza that will fail, too! Here in Orlando, we’re nothing if not consistent.

Edited April 2, 2020 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

3 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Sure didn’t work for Wahlburgers did it?  (not to mention the other locations that have faded in that corner over the years. But that’s ok, Lincoln’s going to build something just like it and the retail at The Plaza that will fail, too! Here in Orlando, we’re nothing if not consistent.

Maybe Wahlburger's just wasn't very good....?