Church Street Plaza | 32-Story Hotel/Apt & Re-work of Former CSS Retail/Event Space [Phases 2/3 Planning Phase]

[jgardnerucf]

Damn it, forgot to take pic(s).  Someone gripe and I'll wander back over.

[Tim3167]

Well….

[dcluley98]

(obligatory)

[HankStrong]

[codypet]

When I did the free Sunrail ride, I noticed valuable things like the gas lanterns had already been pulled off the building.  I know the stained glass roof is supposed to be preserved and put between Celt and City Arts, but I don't think that's happened yet.

Edited March 20 by codypet

[jack]

On 3/17/2023 at 12:44 PM, popsiclebrandon said:

I would trade Magic for Lightning in a heartbeat. What Vinik is doing around the arena there is incredible.

So its not the team you desire, but rather an owner that is investing in the surrounding communities. 

20 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

(obligatory)

Have they paid for their permits? If so, it is party time. 

[popsiclebrandon]

On 3/17/2023 at 1:18 PM, codypet said:

Would you trade Magic for the Jags or the Rays?  I wouldn't

Was trying to at least make an even facility trade.

I would def trade for an NFL team since that sport rules this country. But not like I would ever go to a game.

[dcluley98]

Demolition Permit pulled 3/8/2023: https://permitlookup.cityoforlando.net/WebPermits/Permits/LoginViaSearch?PermitNumber=DEM2023-10028

 

[jrs2]

On 3/17/2023 at 11:47 AM, TheGolfFather said:

The magic are a definite failure on the court. Anyone I know that is NBA literate know them as a farm team with horrible management. The games I have been to have been full of tourists from S. America and the U.K. that show up to games while on their Disney vacay to see the stars on other teams.  Snubbing Shaq for that $121m was one of the worst mistakes in Orlando history which solidified them as a non serious "participation trophy" team.  But hey, 2030 is right around the corner aye?

never thought of it before.  and I know @Tim3167doesn't necessarily agree, but they do have a farm team vibe.  Not to hijack this thread, but historically, all of their stars have gone elsewhere, and any stars they got were at the time they got here retreads on life support.  I USED to be a season ticket holder during the mid 2000's and after the Dwight- VanJeremy fiasco, I said enough is enough.  Even though @spenser1058disliked them partly because of the ownership (for other reasons), I disliked them b/c they cannot effectively manage a sound roster and reward subpar performance by staff by retaining them while letting good staff go.  They are focused on status quo ala NBA and want to be big-time on someone else's dime.  Their orthopedic institute was built on Advent's dime.  And now they are looking for some other major investor to invest in their land but they're not willing to pony up the cheddar themselves.  They are trying to be a savvy developer (or at least walk like one) but last I checked their name isn't Ken Whittle of Unicorp.  And to top it off, they are also too busy hiring HR enforcers to enforce diversity on a staff of, what, 50-75 people total?  They've got their heads up their collective a5535.

That being said, if they do develop that lot, when CSP 2 gets built, that "gap" will close substantially.  They just need to do something meaningful under I-4, like that tunnel United has at O'Hare between Landside and Airside. 

[codypet]

@jrs2 My beef with that development was selling a functioning garage (that had a ton of incentives dumped into it to keep the street level businesses afloat while Amway was built) just before I-4 ultimate was about to shut the underground I-4 parking and doing that stupid leaseback with the Police Station while the new one waited to get built.   The City didn't need to sell that land right then and they didn't need to be in that kind of a hurry, especially because that homeless shelter was still on the north side of that block and a deal hadn't been solidified with them yet.  Now what's done is done and all those buildings are gone and we have a vacant lot.   I thought for sure they were doomed to make the same mistake when the City sold them the lot north of CityView, but at least that got built. Even if that building has the same street level presence as the federal courthouse.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

2 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

Demolition Permit pulled 3/8/2023: https://permitlookup.cityoforlando.net/WebPermits/Permits/LoginViaSearch?PermitNumber=DEM2023-10028

 

This being pulled means construction is good to go. As far as demolition? Or being pulled is in they have to reapply again? I'm sorry I don't speak construction. 

[dcluley98]

It means it is good to go for demolition and open.  "Pulled" is just construction speak slang for requesting and receiving official permit to begin work. 

They are currently working on site and the permit is good to go until September 5 for all demolition and underground clearing/prep. 

They have not yet requested a permit for the new building. 

 

To clarify, in this parlance the General Contractor/Construction Manager is the one "pulling" or "requesting" the permit from the local City of Orlando Building Department.  

The only way that they would revoke it is for failed inspection with the Building Department issuing a "Stop Work Order".  This usually only happens with safety issues or severe structural issues.  (although sometimes can arise from contract issues or unapproved scope issues)

Edited March 20 by dcluley98

[GregoryMCSE]

2 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

Demolition Permit pulled 3/8/2023: https://permitlookup.cityoforlando.net/WebPermits/Permits/LoginViaSearch?PermitNumber=DEM2023-10028

 

[JFW657]

8 hours ago, codypet said:

@jrs2 My beef with that development was selling a functioning garage (that had a ton of incentives dumped into it to keep the street level businesses afloat while Amway was built) just before I-4 ultimate was about to shut the underground I-4 parking and doing that stupid leaseback with the Police Station while the new one waited to get built.   The City didn't need to sell that land right then and they didn't need to be in that kind of a hurry, especially because that homeless shelter was still on the north side of that block and a deal hadn't been solidified with them yet.  Now what's done is done and all those buildings are gone and we have a vacant lot.   I thought for sure they were doomed to make the same mistake when the City sold them the lot north of CityView, but at least that got built. Even if that building has the same street level presence as the federal courthouse.

I've always kind of assumed that maybe they demo'd the garage (which I liked) when they did for a couple of (or possibly more) reasons, among them being 1) that they actually thought things were going to happen more quickly than they did given that they didn't know COVID was right around the corner about to bring everything to a screeching halt, and 2) that they felt they could save money on the demolition by doing it sooner rather than later. As I recall around that time, construction industry prices were going up precipitously and people were scrambling to get things started quickly. I could be wrong of course. 

[codypet]

The garage came down in 2016, the police station July 2017, the rescue mission had been boarded up for at least 2019 and didn't come down until Feb 2020.  They had 4 years to finalize the design permits and even could have started foundation work on the Amway Center side while they waited to finish getting the rescue mission.  They likely could have at least one or two buildings half constructed by the time the pandemic rolled around.  Instead it was rendering after rendering and excuse after excuse.   I think the latest was they wanted  to wait until Under I was done.  Now Under I will be parking lots.  So what's the holdup now?

[jrs2]

12 hours ago, JFW657 said:

I've always kind of assumed that maybe they demo'd the garage (which I liked) when they did for a couple of (or possibly more) reasons, among them being 1) that they actually thought things were going to happen more quickly than they did given that they didn't know COVID was right around the corner about to bring everything to a screeching halt, and 2) that they felt they could save money on the demolition by doing it sooner rather than later. As I recall around that time, construction industry prices were going up precipitously and people were scrambling to get things started quickly. I could be wrong of course. 

I think they were keeping their options open to perhaps flip it as a last resort.  But, I think they were looking for investors but because of their track record, i.e., it's not like the DeVos clan is Mark Cuban, you know...  And I also think they were looking for incentive $$$ from the City.

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, codypet said:

The garage came down in 2016, the police station July 2017, the rescue mission had been boarded up for at least 2019 and didn't come down until Feb 2020.  They had 4 years to finalize the design permits and even could have started foundation work on the Amway Center side while they waited to finish getting the rescue mission.  They likely could have at least one or two buildings half constructed by the time the pandemic rolled around.  Instead it was rendering after rendering and excuse after excuse.   I think the latest was they wanted  to wait until Under I was done.  Now Under I will be parking lots.  So what's the holdup now?

I don't know. But I suppose when dealing with the kind of money involved in a project like this, making it happen is not always a cakewalk. Especially in a smallish city like Orlando. I've always felt that it will eventually happen, though. Still do.  

[jack]

22 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

 

They have not yet requested a permit for the new building. 

 

 

Is that true? If so, I take back my party time comment. 

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, JFW657 said:

I don't know. But I suppose when dealing with the kind of money involved in a project like this, making it happen is not always a cakewalk. Especially in a smallish city like Orlando. I've always felt that it will eventually happen, though. Still do.  

See International Speedway Corp in Daytona, and how they proposed One Daytona after The Magic proposed their entertainment complex, and got it built around 3-4 years ago, with a cinema, two hotels (a Marriott Signature hotel among them), Bass Pro, a handful of restaurants and eateries (PF Changs, Rock Bottom, 4Rivers, Jeremiah Ice, etc...) Guitar Center, and other snack places; and a Gametime (Dave & Buster's).  Then they built out a parking deck, four story apartment building, a series of three story apartments on the NE side, and now, a Costco is coming as well.  They also purchased Volusia Plaza next door (ala Full Sail & Colonial Town Park) renovated it, opened it up, and brought retailers into there as well as the ones already there, like Gold's Gym.  Incorporated into the complex is also their 9 story HQ building.  Man, I sound like a commercial.  This came after they spent 1/2 Billion of their money on the Speedway upgrade project- they paid for it; not the City.

Now contrast that with what the NBA typically does to cities and what The Magic did to Orlando when Amway was built in '08.  Didn't the soccer team owners front the money for that stadium?  

It's not about the City; it's about the franchise.  The would have to do a deal with someone like Unicorp or those developers from WPalm that did some of our hotel projects down in the attractions area.

Oh, and One Daytona did this while competing with Tomoka Town Center to the north for some of the same retailers.  Tomoka got Sam's and Dave & Busters, by comparison.

Edited March 21 by jrs2

[Jernigan]

This is LPC - its goint to happen. They have consistently delivered downtown.

[dcluley98]

100% the Edge gets built. They are just phasing it to get started now on Demo while the vertical plans and GMP is finalized. Everything I had heard said this starts next. 

I am still highly skeptical on Magic S+ED. Everything I have seen shows there is definitely not demand for any super high end office space downtown. They may build a smaller portion that is just residential/hotel first, but I doubt they go through with whole thing as planned right now.   

I would say the most likely next thing would be Ustler in CV or 2nd phase of Society.  

[Uncommon]

Yep I agree that this will happen. They have a really good track record. It's just a matter of patience. I just hope it looks like the last design.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

Well I need something to get built. I need a reason to go downtown and get photos. 

[JFW657]

Somebody call Ron Paul, quick.....

 

 

[prahaboheme]

Please, please, please don’t let this lot sit vacant for another few years post-demo.

I’ll admit that it’ll be change to see this area without the ballroom, a downtown fixture for decades.