The Edge | 32-Story Mixed Use + SunRail Station [Proposed/Demo Underway]

[spenser1058]

3 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Maybe Wahlburger's just wasn't very good....?  

It was all the rage a while back. I never went because Mary’s had a much more pleasant atmosphere. It’s probably no surprise I’m not attracted to sterile boxes...

Edited April 2, 2020 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

14 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

So, we get another soulless structure that can’t keep its  retail space full because no one wants to be there and no one can afford it, just like at The Plaza. Why do we continue to miss the point? You’re turning downtown into a taller version of Maitland Center. How many people take nice leisurely strolls and want to live there?

 Now this food hall may be the next reincarnation of East End Market. More likely, it will end up like the glorified food court that crashed and burned at Sun Bank Center. Developers with big projects have a poor record of designing spaces people want to spend time, at least in this market.

you make good points.

just a caveat regarding The Plaza: The Cinema, Corona Cigar, Bento, Hertz (yay! a car rental joint), 7-Eleven, Le Gourmet Break (Magnolia) and Chase (yay! a bank branch), have not shut down or changed over.  It's the Kasa space (but still the same owners (Bento) the past 4 or so years with Wine Down Wednesdays still going strong-- it's this space and it's past iterations (like Urban Flats) that gets the most publicity for the turnover...this space and the former Mochi (still Bento owned I believe), the space across, the large interior space in Plaza South, and former Artisan on Pine St. in Plaza North that get the most press as failed projects.  Also, the former Frank n Stein's.  Wow.  Yeah...they're batting just over .500 I think...

I do agree with you about Hamburger Mary's ala it's location...you can't just pluck a restaurant/node and move it and expect it to still be successful and expect it to not lose it's flair, i.e., the thing that made it desirable in the first place.  The did that with Graffiti Junktion and I don't like it's new location.  They're doing that with Dexter's WP also.

They did it with SAK- any input on how that went?

More on your point... I think downtown prices are way too expensive.  That Sobiks or Quizno's burned down in 2005 at Orange & Pine, no developer has attempted to rebuild the building b/c it is too cost prohibitive.

[spenser1058]

19 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

you make good points.

just a caveat regarding The Plaza: The Cinema, Corona Cigar, Bento, Hertz (yay! a car rental joint), 7-Eleven, Le Gourmet Break (Magnolia) and Chase (yay! a bank branch), have not shut down or changed over.  It's the Kasa space (but still the same owners (Bento) the past 4 or so years with Wine Down Wednesdays still going strong-- it's this space and it's past iterations (like Urban Flats) that gets the most publicity for the turnover...this space and the former Mochi (still Bento owned I believe), the space across, the large interior space in Plaza South, and former Artisan on Pine St. in Plaza North that get the most press as failed projects.  Also, the former Frank n Stein's.  Wow.  Yeah...they're batting just over .500 I think...

I do agree with you about Hamburger Mary's ala it's location...you can't just pluck a restaurant/node and move it and expect it to still be successful and expect it to not lose it's flair, i.e., the thing that made it desirable in the first place.  The did that with Graffiti Junktion and I don't like it's new location.  They're doing that with Dexter's WP also.

They did it with SAK- any input on how that went?

More on your point... I think downtown prices are way too expensive.  That Sobiks or Quizno's burned down in 2005 at Orange & Pine, no developer has attempted to rebuild the building b/c it is too cost prohibitive.

Did I miss a 7-Eleven at The Plaza? Egad! Anyway, the spaces on Pine, Magnolia and Church keep cycling out also. I joked with Brendan at Bungalower he could write a weekly column about all the closures on the back side of The Plaza...

Bottom line? Doesn’t it strike anyone as odd that downtown WG has been more successful with retail than downtown Orlando? It blows my mind and it never used to be that way.

Along those lines, think about the hundreds of millions we gave to a billionaire for a new arena because it would “revitalize” downtown. Heck, the only sports in downtown WG to watch are the soccer games at Lakeview Middle and their retail is eating our lunch...

Edited April 2, 2020 by spenser1058

[Jvest55]

I don't want to give an opinion on Hamburger Marys, but I will say one thing. I never knew this place existed. Never been or heard about it, ever.

[orange87]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Maybe Wahlburger's just wasn't very good....?  

I went there once. The food was mediocre at best and the employees were loud, ghetto and rude. I'd never go back.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

It was all the rage a while back. I never went because Mary’s had a much more pleasant atmosphere. It’s probably no surprise I’m not attracted to sterile boxes...

 

30 minutes ago, orange87 said:

I went there once. The food was mediocre at best and the employees were loud, ghetto and rude. I'd never go back.

I've never been there either, but the subject got me wondering if there was something about the interior decor that ties it to the 1890's architecture of CSS.  Does HM have a kind of Victorian era "gay 90's" (no pun intended) theme that became part of its identity and which wouldn't work as effectively in a modern building like SunTrust Center?

So I Googled some interior pics....

Looks like it has a very modern decor that would be more at home in the Wahlburgers location than in the old Bumby Block building.

Maybe the new food court will adopt that Victorian era, CSS style theme and end up being a better fit.

[spenser1058]

2 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

 

I've never been there either, but the subject got me wondering if there was something about the interior decor that ties it to the 1890's architecture of CSS.  Does HM have a kind of Victorian era "gay 90's" (no pun intended) theme that became part of its identity and which wouldn't work as effectively in a modern building like SunTrust Center?

So I Googled some interior pics....

Looks like it has a very modern decor that would be more at home in the Wahlburgers location than in the old Bumby Block building.

Maybe the new food court will adopt that Victorian era, CSS style theme and end up being a better fit.

I’ve always sat outside at Mary’s (at least since they added outdoor seating on the front and side). 

It’s a valid point but then even Bob Snow’s food court just had standard issue seating at The Exchange.

[Uncommon]

Hamburger Mary’s is meh. I went there partially because of the hype from here and my burger was season-less. My wife was also especially unimpressed and we ate about half of our meals before getting some better-tasting food at Amway (which shocked us).

I’m gathering that HM’s is viewed as a staple and an institution, but the food is passable and imo nothing to be up in arms about over saving it to make room for something else.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Uncommon

[JFW657]

2 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I’ve always sat outside at Mary’s (at least since they added outdoor seating on the front and side). 

It’s a valid point but then even Bob Snow’s food court just had standard issue seating at The Exchange.

I don't think Bob Snow was still involved with CSS by the time The Exchange came along.

[spenser1058]

2 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I don't think Bob Snow was still involved with CSS by the time The Exchange came along.

Yep, it was his originally. He sold out afterward.

The model trains that ran all through the top floor were his design, in particular.

Edited April 2, 2020 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

3 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Hamburger Mary’s is meh. I went there partially because of the hype from here and my burger was season-less. My wife was also especially unimpressed and we ate about half of our meals before getting some better-tasting food at Amway (which shocked us).

I’m gathering that HM’s is viewed as a staple and an institution, but the food is passable and imo nothing to be up in arms about over saving it to make room for something else.

I've found that to be true about other burger places these days, too.

I'm beginning to think maybe I should start carrying my own seasoning with me when I go to burger places.

Maybe some soy sauce and some onion powder.

[aent]

17 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Developers with big projects have a poor record of designing spaces people want to spend time, at least in this market.

I'd say Disney and Universal beg to differ.

 

  

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

It was all the rage a while back. I never went because Mary’s had a much more pleasant atmosphere. It’s probably no surprise I’m not attracted to sterile boxes...

I too have never been to Hamburger Marys and Googled it to see what made it so special and also don't get it. I've noticed you've used the words "sterile box" more times then I can count... and you seem to be saying that referring to the new actual retail places, and not the buildings themselves from my understanding... so what makes the new spaces a "sterile box" and not a place that a successful, well placed business can survive in?

And why, exactly, can't Hamburger Marys move?

Edited April 2, 2020 by aent

[spenser1058]

3 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I've found that to be true about other burger places these days, too.

I'm beginning to think maybe I should start carrying my own seasoning with me when I go to burger places.

Maybe some soy sauce and some onion powder.

I do remember thinking that also the first time I went to Planet Hollywood. Of the themed chain places, House of Blues is the one that has good food, imho.

[nite owℓ]

15 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I've found that to be true about other burger places these days, too.

I'm beginning to think maybe I should start carrying my own seasoning with me when I go to burger places.

Maybe some soy sauce and some onion powder.

 

JFW: "I got soy sauce in my bag/Swag."

[spenser1058]

2 minutes ago, aent said:

I'd say Disney and Universal beg to differ.

 

  

I too have never been to Hamburger Marys and Googled it to see what made it so special and also don't get it. I've noticed you've used the words "sterile box" more times then I can count... so what makes the new spaces a "sterile box" and not a place that a successful, well placed business can survive in?

And why, exactly, can't Hamburger Marys move?

Mary’s can certainly move - I noted above a couple of interesting options.  What makes Mary’s interesting are things they do that no one else does, like drag queen bingo.

In a more mundane sense, something Scott J often goes on about is whether a manager is around when you need one. At Mary’s, you usually have not only a manager but also an owner. There’s a feeling they’re invested.

One of the reasons Mary’s survived the recession when folks like Bob Snow didn’t was because they were going full tilt to reach out to the gay community and to make it clear we as customers were part of the success. Even now, it’s very local.

Now, of course, if you’re not part of all that you wouldn’t know it. For anyone else, and especially in my case since I almost always sit outside, it’s all about soaking up the historic feel of the surroundings. In Mary’s case, you get a twofer: not only the historic feel of Church Street but also the very camp quality that is uniquely Mary’s.

At the end of the day, we keep surrendering the little jewels we have like this that make Orlando unique to build yet another building that, as soon as it’s finished, we’ll b***h about on here as typical Baker Barrios nothing special. Then, there will be an endless parade of “insert Tab A into Slot B” restaurants that will be forgotten the day they close.

There are a precious few places that have an impact on their cities. Ronnie’s was one - 25 years later, people still talk about it with reverence and the Sentinel does articles on it (see my avatar...). 

Since Buddy has been mayor, not once has he discussed plans for the future of the historic core. Not once - the very thing that makes downtown, downtown. Meanwhile, it’s just undergoing a very slow demolition by neglect. Once it goes, it’s gone.

Instead, here we only talk about another generic high rise that will be less tall than Sun Bank Center. They will have absolutely nothing special about them and have no ties to the community or the folks who might visit. We’re not building a downtown people remember, we’re building a vertical office park. Just like no one ever waxes rhapsodic about Maitland Center, we’re building a downtown no one will care about. It saddens me, because when we started revitalizing downtown in the early ‘80’s, we had something very different in mind.

[jrs2]

this talk of downtown retail failing is beginning to depress me.  gonna turn on national news to cheer myself up.

1 hour ago, aent said:

I'd say Disney and Universal beg to differ.

 

  

I too have never been to Hamburger Marys and Googled it to see what made it so special and also don't get it. I've noticed you've used the words "sterile box" more times then I can count... and you seem to be saying that referring to the new actual retail places, and not the buildings themselves from my understanding... so what makes the new spaces a "sterile box" and not a place that a successful, well placed business can survive in?

And why, exactly, can't Hamburger Marys move?

I think by "this market" they mean downtown.

 

I can't believe so many people have never been to HM downtown...

[codypet]

7 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

this talk of downtown retail failing is beginning to depress me.  gonna turn on national news to cheer myself up.

We can watch "Political Party Shouting Match".

I believe they'll be playing that on a loop at "Lease Negotiations" in the Yard.

 

[jrs2]

12 minutes ago, codypet said:

We can watch "Political Party Shouting Match".

I believe they'll be playing that on a loop at "Lease Negotiations" in the Yard.

 

Nintendo should just make a new version of Super Smash Bros with the caricatures of all the usual players in politics instead of Mario et al...

[popsiclebrandon]

I've had some great nights at HM. The food was always mediocre at best but the atmosphere was always fun.

I also don't like the new building being proposed there and think the food hall is not in a good spot for such a thing.

That being said though I just don't see what the city can do here. Private leases aren't really up to the city and this one ending sucks but I'm sure they will have no trouble finding a new spot. Especially with the amount of spaces that will sadly being opening up this year.

Now I'd love to have a discussion about the ridiculous lease the city has with Relax Grill and how we should have that terminated and put up for bid and run by a competent restaurant group without the crazy park vending rights.

[nite owℓ]

In seeking clarification regarding a possible move for HM, Commissioner Bakari Burns inadvertently uncovered a surprising fact: Hamburger Mary's offered to sell their business to Lincoln Property. (HM provided a letter to be read into the record @1:14:20 but made no mention of that.)

@1:37:36 Bakari Burns: In the letter [submitted by HM] that was read, it seemed to me there was an offer by Lincoln Property to buy out the lease of HM and then there was a retraction of that [offer]. That seems to me that may have impacted their ability to relocate and I just wanted to get some clarification of what happened with that. Because that was my understanding of what stopped them from being able to relocate.

Scott Glass (lawyer representing Lincoln Properties): During the due diligence period on the underlying transaction, the owners of HM offered to sell their business. It was investigated during due diligence and a business decision was made in that 60 day period not to purchase the business.

Bakari Burns: Ok, so it was not a buyout of the lease - it was the purchase of the actual business that was being discussed.

Scott Glass: That is correct, commissioner. It was the business and not just the buyout of the lease.

Regina Hill: This is quite shocking, that what I just heard to be honest with you. So am I hearing, that actually HM wanted to get out of the hamburger business... the owners? They wanted to sell to Lincoln Properties? It wasn't helping to relocate or impact funds - that they actually wanted to sell the business and walk away?

Mr. Glass: That is correct.

City Council (including Mayor Dyer) all advocated for further dialogue between both parties and approved the project to move forward. The DDB tried to assist Hamburger Mary's with finding another location downtown with possible CRA [financial] assistance -- and the option still stands should HM wish to move forward with that.

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by nite owℓ

[spenser1058]

58 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

I've had some great nights at HM. The food was always mediocre at best but the atmosphere was always fun.

I also don't like the new building being proposed there and think the food hall is not in a good spot for such a thing.

That being said though I just don't see what the city can do here. Private leases aren't really up to the city and this one ending sucks but I'm sure they will have no trouble finding a new spot. Especially with the amount of spaces that will sadly being opening up this year.

Now I'd love to have a discussion about the ridiculous lease the city has with Relax Grill and how we should have that terminated and put up for bid and run by a competent restaurant group without the crazy park vending rights.

People forget the power of the “bully pulpit” - it’s how Atlanta saved the Fox and even Buddy kept a generic high rise out of Eola Park.

We have a strong mayor form of government that, while in an individual case, the developer may have the upper hand, but in the long term (s)he will be dealing again with a mayor who can make life on your next project miserable.

By and large, Buddy simply has no interest in the holistic quality of downtown, especially as it relates to his relationships with corporate powers. It’s a big difference that he has over Mayors Glenda and Bill.

In the beginning, it seemed promising because his preference for big projects was a specific need we had. Eighteen years later, as the things he ignored are begging for attention again, it’s time for someone with a different focus. We just have to get to 2024 and hope there’s something left to save. The good news is, we may have someone on tap to move us past the inertia that is Buddy.

I don’t know if you noticed but the day the local COVID-19 shutdown was announced, Mayor Demings was large and in charge and Buddy was nothing but a cipher behind him.

That is so huge- the nature of power locally has always had the mayor of Orlando leading the way even when by statute the county had the control.

In a discussion about potential UCF presidents recently (before the selection), where most of those chatting had little knowledge of how local politics work, a comment was made about Buddy trying to sign on at UCF to keep going before he retires. That’s just sad. It’s clear he’s burnt out but the same old folks keep propping him up because he rarely crosses the development crowd. It’s very like Carl Langford at the end.

Edited April 2, 2020 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, nite owℓ said:

 

JFW: "I got soy sauce in my bag/Swag."

If I owned a "bag/Swag" (or even knew what one is) I might just put some in there if I was going to get a burger. 

As the BSA like to say.... "Be prepared".

[nite owℓ]

2 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I don’t know if you noticed but the day the local COVID-19 shutdown was announced, Mayor Demings was large and in charge and Buddy was nothing but a cipher behind him.

That is so huge- the nature of power locally has always had the mayor of Orlando leading the way even when by statute the county had the control.

I disagree w/your interpretation of the optics. First, IIRC it was a press conference held by Orange County - of course the Orange County Mayor would be in charge. If anything, Mayor Dyer standing behind Mayor Demings demonstrated respect and support for the nature and messaging that was being put forth. Now is not the time to squabble over optics and to flex muscle when people's lives are at stake - we already know what self-inflated importance and fighting over the limelight looks like & I'm shocked that you seem to be advocating for that kind of behavior?? Just no, please.

[popsiclebrandon]

15 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

In seeking clarification regarding a possible move for HM, Commissioner Bakari Burns inadvertently uncovered a surprising fact: Hamburger Mary's offered to sell their business to Lincoln Property. (HM provided a letter to be read into the record @1:14:20 but made no mention of that.)

@1:37:36 Bakari Burns: In the letter [submitted by HM] that was read, it seemed to me there was an offer by Lincoln Property to buy out the lease of HM and then there was a retraction of that [offer]. That seems to me that may have impacted their ability to relocate and I just wanted to get some clarification of what happened with that. Because that was my understanding of what stopped them from being able to relocate.

Scott Glass (lawyer representing Lincoln Properties): During the due diligence period on the underlying transaction, the owners of HM offered to sell their business. It was investigated during due diligence and a business decision was made in that 60 day period not to purchase the business.

Bakari Burns: Ok, so it was not a buyout of the lease - it was the purchase of the actual business that was being discussed.

Scott Glass: That is correct, commissioner. It was the business and not just the buyout of the lease.

Regina Hill: This is quite shocking, that what I just heard to be honest with you. So am I hearing, that actually HM wanted to get out of the hamburger business... the owners? They wanted to sell to Lincoln Properties? It wasn't helping to relocate or impact funds - that they actually wanted to sell the business and walk away?

Mr. Glass: That is correct.

City Council (including Mayor Dyer) all advocated for further dialogue between both parties and approved the project to move forward. The DDB tried to assist Hamburger Mary's with finding another location downtown with possible CRA [financial] assistance -- and the option still stands should HM wish to move forward with that.

 

That is really interesting. Does Lincoln operate a restaurant division?

[spenser1058]

24 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

In seeking clarification regarding a possible move for HM, Commissioner Bakari Burns inadvertently uncovered a surprising fact: Hamburger Mary's offered to sell their business to Lincoln Property. (HM provided a letter to be read into the record @1:14:20 but made no mention of that.)

@1:37:36 Bakari Burns: In the letter [submitted by HM] that was read, it seemed to me there was an offer by Lincoln Property to buy out the lease of HM and then there was a retraction of that [offer]. That seems to me that may have impacted their ability to relocate and I just wanted to get some clarification of what happened with that. Because that was my understanding of what stopped them from being able to relocate.

Scott Glass (lawyer representing Lincoln Properties): During the due diligence period on the underlying transaction, the owners of HM offered to sell their business. It was investigated during due diligence and a business decision was made in that 60 day period not to purchase the business.

Bakari Burns: Ok, so it was not a buyout of the lease - it was a purchase of the actual business that was being discussed.

Scott Glass: That is correct, commissioner. It was the business and not just the buyout of the lease.

Regina Hill: This is quite shocking, that what I just heard to be honest with you. So am I hearing, that actually HM wanted to get out of the hamburger business... the owners? They wanted to sell to Lincoln Properties? It wasn't helping to relocate or impact funds - that they actually wanted to sell the business and walk away?

Mr. Glass: That is correct.

City Council (including Mayor Dyer) all advocated for further dialogue between both parties and approved the project to move forward. The DDB tried to assist Hamburger Mary's with finding another location downtown with possible CRA [financial] assistance -- and the option still stands should HM wish to move forward with that.

 

My understanding of that is Mary’s owners saw the handwriting on the wall and by that point were looking for the best out possible, rather than ending up with nothing. That’s second hand, so make of it what you will. It would be good if we heard more from the owners but I’m told they’re lawyered up for now.

In any event, regardless of Mary’s, the point is to see the forest for the trees. We’re losing (whether it be Mary’s or, let’s just say it were Kres instead) something unique and local for something generic. That’s the issue here. Historic downtown or vertical office park? If you’re ok with the latter, then charge on because that’s the direction we’re heading.

Someone made the point in a discussion we were having last week that is resonating with me. When we started back in 1982-3, there weren’t really other options.. Downtown WG was boarded up, College Park was half empty, as was Ivanhoe Village and the Milk District was a wide spot in the road by the mall.

Today, all of those areas are thriving and, in fact, are a lot closer (especially WG) to what we envisioned than Buddy’s Orlando.

It may be time to quit fighting, acknowledge victory, and move.

8 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

I disagree w/your interpretation of the optics. First, IIRC it was a press conference held by Orange County - of course the Orange County Mayor would be in charge. If anything, Mayor Dyer standing behind Mayor Demings demonstrated respect and support for the nature and messaging that was being put forth. Now is not the time to squabble over optics and to flex muscle when people's lives are at stake - we already know what self-inflated importance and fighting over the limelight looks like & I'm shocked that you seem to be advocating for that kind of behavior?? Just no, please.

I don’t disagree but in the past that never happened. Before, you probably would have seen separate announcements by both. I’m not saying it’s wrong, just different than business has been conducted here before.

Edited April 2, 2020 by spenser1058