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Church Street Plaza | 32-Story Hotel/Apt & Re-work of Former CSS Retail/Event Space [Phases 2/3 Planning Phase]


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On 5/18/2020 at 11:45 AM, JFW657 said:

I'm just guessing here, but from the appearance of the portion enclosed in the yellow box....

chustreplagarage.jpg

....it looks like they might be planning on a future tie-in.  

Nah...it was just merely Cameron Kuhn-ed...

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Maybe not the correct place for this, but let's just take a moment to inventory downtown. For those on here that say they want this or that, or they don't come downtown because it doesn't have enough

Must be getting ready to demo. You need a pest control certificate to receive a permit. 

Despite everything that is going on, it looks like Lincoln Property posted T2 on LoopNet

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  • 2 months later...

CSP 2b aka Bumby Arcade food hall is expected to begin construction in Feb... "may feature 18 vendors between 300 to 1,000 square feet"

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2020/12/28/bumby-arcade-food-hall-construction.html

The same article also mentioned The Yard Food Hall (is it still Franklin On The Yard) is supposed to open in March. @popsiclebrandon can you verify that?

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That same article mentions another food hall, South Orange Provisions, at 200 S. Orange. This is the building that is currently under remodel. The brochure says 10k sq ft food hall with 9 fully built out food stalls. 

Btw @spenser1058, they also call Orange and Church main and main.

Here's the brochure- SOP-leasing-brochure-Final-LR.pdf (southorangeprovisions.com)

 

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On 12/28/2020 at 7:21 PM, AmIReal said:

CSP 2b aka Bumby Arcade food hall is expected to begin construction in Feb... "may feature 18 vendors between 300 to 1,000 square feet"

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2020/12/28/bumby-arcade-food-hall-construction.html

The same article also mentioned The Yard Food Hall (is it still Franklin On The Yard) is supposed to open in March. @popsiclebrandon can you verify that?

If he managed to find the money to finish then maybe but wouldn't count on it.

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  • 4 weeks later...
8 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Susuru has a really strong following so this is a nice "get" for the space.

Agreed, very strong get. Project would be well on its way to sustainable success imo if it gets support from our local Asian restaurants and chains - Hawker’s, Bento’s, vietnomz, Sus-hi, Seito’s, Kobe.....we’ve quietly built a pretty nice niche of strong Asian concepts in town. 

Edited by leondecollao
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This is in  Church Street, right? 

The problem isn't the brands, it's the lack of hungry residents. 

 

People don't drive or take a bus to go to a destination restaurant anymore. 

 

I would put the food hall near where the residents are. 

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8 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

This is in  Church Street, right? 

The problem isn't the brands, it's the lack of hungry residents. 

People don't drive or take a bus to go to a destination restaurant anymore. 

I would put the food hall near where the residents are. 

People seem to drive to the Hourglass food hall as well as the one in Audubon or the one in Winter Garden.  Its how much hassle is someone gonna go through to park.  WG has a parking lot to the side of the hall, as does Audubon.  Hourglass's right out front.  Bumby, you'd need to park in a garage and pay.  That's gonna be a no for a lot of people.

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Are there enough people in 55W to keep it busy in the evening? I assume lunch will take care of itself if downtown workers ever start coming back.

About the only time I ever go west of Rosalind these days is for church. Kres is for special occasions, otherwise most of what I need is within walking distance to the east of Eola. 

Now that the Shakes is coming back to the park and they’re programming Plaza Live pretty regularly, I may never have to leave my little bubble again unless I move north.
 

 

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34 minutes ago, codypet said:

People seem to drive to the Hourglass food hall as well as the one in Audubon or the one in Winter Garden.  Its how much hassle is someone gonna go through to park.  WG has a parking lot to the side of the hall, as does Audubon.  Hourglass's right out front.  Bumby, you'd need to park in a garage and pay.  That's gonna be a no for a lot of people.

I don't imagine most of whatever level of business they'll get will be from people just coming to eat there per se.

I would think that most of their trade will come from people who either live downtown or who came downtown to hang out, walk around, maybe visit a bar or two.

Their downtown location is the draw more than they themselves are. 

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11 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

This is in  Church Street, right? 

The problem isn't the brands, it's the lack of hungry residents. 

 

People don't drive or take a bus to go to a destination restaurant anymore. 

 

I would put the food hall near where the residents are. 

Strongly disagree. People from all over metro Orlando have no issue driving to Disney Springs, restaurant row, I-drive, Mills 50, etc.

For some of the brands mentioned, friends of mine regularly drive 30 minutes or so to places like susuru, Tori Tori, yellow dog eats, Domu, etc.  I know people from NYC that will make sure to stop at Seito in Baldwin Park when they are here on conferences because of the quality of the place.  Many of those same people trek out to Park Ave. and most of them end up at Prato. The brands and reputations do matter. 

We also have large minority groups in town that drive long distances regularly for the right restaurants....Asians to Colonial, Puerto Ricans down to Kissimmee.

Orlando is so spread out, people regularly drive huge distances to go literally anywhere.  Downtown Sanford is booming because people have proven they are very willing to drive to dining destinations.  Heck, some people fly to places like NYC and Austin just to go on “foodie adventures”.  

Dining and drinking destinations are now considered tourist destinations in a lot of places. We all criticized Disney for turning Downtown Disney into a dining destination but they were clearly proven right.

I do agree on parking and the general inconvenience of downtown. That’s still a major challenge. 
 

Edited by leondecollao
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13 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

This is in  Church Street, right? 

The problem isn't the brands, it's the lack of hungry residents. 

 

People don't drive or take a bus to go to a destination restaurant anymore. 

 

I would put the food hall near where the residents are. 

Have you been to Armature Works in Tampa? People drive from all around the region to eat there. Few people live within walking distance but it is constantly packed. 

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Not a food hall, but people used to drive into downtown to eat at Ceviche as well (when they were still open). Besides finding parking, people don't like being harassed/followed by aggressive panhandlers or sketchy people trying to rob/carjack you (especially if they live in the "suburbs"). If we could do more to make people safe similar to the way we have police lining the streets during Magic games, I think people would feel more comfortable parking several blocks away to walk to their Church St. destination at night.

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51 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

Not a food hall, but people used to drive into downtown to eat at Ceviche as well (when they were still open). Besides finding parking, people don't like being harassed/followed by aggressive panhandlers or sketchy people trying to rob/carjack you (especially if they live in the "suburbs"). If we could do more to make people safe similar to the way we have police lining the streets during Magic games, I think people would feel more comfortable parking several blocks away to walk to their Church St. destination at night.

A sidebar to this is that there are other places that do the whole historic/funky thing better than downtown Orlando does now. Whether it’s Sanford, Winter Park, WG or (DeLightful!) DeLand, there’s just more to offer. I guess if you’re a Magic fan your choices are limited; otherwise, downtown Orlando’s the onetime cutting-edge “mall” that didn’t keep up. Those are the historic places and then the other Main Street districts complete the picture.

 

Edited by spenser1058
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1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

A sidebar to this is that there are other places that do the whole historic/funky thing better than downtown Orlando does now. Whether it’s Sanford, Winter Park, WG or (DeLightful!) DeLand, there’s just more to offer. I guess if you’re a Magic fan your choices are limited; otherwise, downtown Orlando’s the onetime cutting-edge “mall” that didn’t keep up. Those are the historic places and then the other Main Street districts complete the picture.

 

I think the towns you've mentioned have done a great job of creating a luxury-like, Rodeo Drive experience (Winter Park) or a quaint, small town main street vibe (Sanford, Winter Garden and DeLand). I think these things are more difficult (or impossible) to replicate in an urban city center, which has urban city center issues (parking, panhandling, etc.). 

That being said, I think these new food halls will be a great addition to the downtown scene. It will provide more dining options, but in spaces that are affordable to the business owner. It's my understanding that rents are incredibly high downtown, and that pulling off a successful restaurant ain't easy even in a cheap location. I wish these new folks much success!

 

2 hours ago, nite owℓ said:

Not a food hall, but people used to drive into downtown to eat at Ceviche as well (when they were still open). Besides finding parking, people don't like being harassed/followed by aggressive panhandlers or sketchy people trying to rob/carjack you (especially if they live in the "suburbs"). If we could do more to make people safe similar to the way we have police lining the streets during Magic games, I think people would feel more comfortable parking several blocks away to walk to their Church St. destination at night.

I don't know if downtown is unsafe. I'd have to see some stats. But to your point, it can feel unsafe - particularly if you are a visitor from the 'burbs. 

I've had several co-workers from the 'burbs say they don't want to go back downtown because they felt unsafe. But these were times when downtown was kind of dead (no events going on, weekday evenings, etc.). When it's hopping and crowded, people tend to feel safe. And when it's not, the city should consider increasing its police presence downtown. Could go a long way in changing the perception that visitors sometimes have. My 2-cents. 

 

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26 minutes ago, FLClarkKent said:

I think the towns you've mentioned have done a great job of creating a luxury-like, Rodeo Drive experience (Winter Park) or a quaint, small town main street vibe (Sanford, Winter Garden and DeLand). I think these things are more difficult (or impossible) to replicate in an urban city center, which has urban city center issues (parking, panhandling, etc.). 

That being said, I think these new food halls will be a great addition to the downtown scene. It will provide more dining options, but in spaces that are affordable to the business owner. It's my understanding that rents are incredibly high downtown, and that pulling off a successful restaurant ain't easy even in a cheap location. I wish these new folks much success!

 

But in the case of Sanford, Winter Garden and DeLand, they all followed a model created in the 1980’s by... Orlando! It’s interesting to me that rather than looking to see where we dropped the ball, we just keep making excuses. Meanwhile, places that we were way ahead of (and I used those examples because they’re local - if you want larger cities, we’re being eclipsed by St. Pete, Tampa, and now even Jacksonville is waking up). 

It’s like in 2015 when UCF went 0-12, two years after playing in the Fiesta Bowl. No one said, “oh, we can’t do anything about it, let’s just leave things like they are.” Instead, they jettisoned the AD (who knew he’d stayed too long), the coach and staff and two years later were back on top. 

As to WP being a Rodeo Drive experience, I recall Sentinel columnist Rob Morse (who shortly thereafter fled back to San Francisco), opining that “a pink 7-Eleven at one end and a dinner theater at the other does not a Worth Ave make.”

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9 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

But in the case of Sanford, Winter Garden and DeLand, they all followed a model created in the 1980’s by... Orlando! It’s interesting to me that rather than looking to see where we dropped the ball, we just keep making excuses. Meanwhile, places that we were way ahead of (and I used those examples because they’re local - if you want larger cities, we’re being eclipsed by St. Pete, Tampa, and now even Jacksonville is waking up). 

It’s like in 2015 when UCF went 0-12, two years after playing in the Fiesta Bowl. No one said, “oh, we can’t do anything about it, let’s just leave things like they are.” Instead, they jettisoned the AD (who knew he’d stayed too long), the coach and staff and two years later were back on top. 

As to WP being a Rodeo Drive experience, I recall Sentinel columnist Rob Morse (who shortly thereafter fled back to San Francisco), opining tha “a pink 7-Eleven at one end and a dinner theater at the other does not a Worth Ave make.”

I don't know, still don't think it's an apples to apples comparison. All three are working a small town, main street vibe. 

Going off topic, the other thing that isn't helping downtown retail is all of the close to downtown 'hoods (College Park, Ivanhoe, Mills 50, etc.) having good retail and great food.

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1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

But in the case of Sanford, Winter Garden and DeLand, they all followed a model created in the 1980’s by... Orlando! It’s interesting to me that rather than looking to see where we dropped the ball, we just keep making excuses. Meanwhile, places that we were way ahead of (and I used those examples because they’re local - if you want larger cities, we’re being eclipsed by St. Pete, Tampa, and now even Jacksonville is waking up). 

It’s like in 2015 when UCF went 0-12, two years after playing in the Fiesta Bowl. No one said, “oh, we can’t do anything about it, let’s just leave things like they are.” Instead, they jettisoned the AD (who knew he’d stayed too long), the coach and staff and two years later were back on top. 

As to WP being a Rodeo Drive experience, I recall Sentinel columnist Rob Morse (who shortly thereafter fled back to San Francisco), opining that “a pink 7-Eleven at one end and a dinner theater at the other does not a Worth Ave make.”

I’m not sure why you keep trying to make Jacksonville happen. DT Jax is absolute garbage. It has been an abysmal eyesore for the better part of 30 years, at least. And it will take another 30 years to be mentioned in the same breath as St. Pete, Tampa, or Orlando. It’s always absolutely dead, even before the pandemic. Entire swaths of areas cannot be built on due to environmental issues. The shipyards are an atrocity. And the core is experiencing zero growth. All of the money being pumped into Jax is going toward the beaches, Avondale, Riverside, Five Points, and other areas NOT in Jax’s downtown. Orlando is nowhere near being eclipsed by Jacksonville. Even Jacksonville’s residents know their downtown is a complete failure.

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13 minutes ago, FLClarkKent said:

I don't know if downtown is unsafe. I'd have to see some stats. But to your point, it can feel unsafe - particularly if you are a visitor from the 'burbs. 

I've had several co-workers from the 'burbs say they don't want to go back downtown because they felt unsafe. But these were times when downtown was kind of dead (no events going on, weekday evenings, etc.). When it's hopping and crowded, people tend to feel safe. And when it's not, the city should consider increasing its police presence downtown. Could go a long way in changing the perception that visitors sometimes have. My 2-cents. 

 

That's the general feedback I've heard from co-workers (typically older professionals with families or people who live in the 'burbs). I don't feel totally unsafe, but of course I'm on guard if I'm walking the streets at night (as I would anywhere). People who live downtown aren't causing the bulk of trouble - it's the trash that descend upon downtown that cause problems and give downtown a bad image: recent shootings and car jacking. A higher police presence is warranted due to the influx of visitors that come here for events and weekends. I'd love to see patrols parked with lights flashing parked at several major intersections leading to & from downtown on weekends to deter the riff raff from even thinking about causing trouble.

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3 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

That's the general feedback I've heard from co-workers (typically older professionals with families or people who live in the 'burbs). I don't feel totally unsafe, but of course I'm on guard if I'm walking the streets at night (as I would anywhere). People who live downtown aren't causing the bulk of trouble - it's the trash that descend upon downtown that cause problems and give downtown a bad image: recent shootings and car jacking. A higher police presence is warranted due to the influx of visitors that come here for events and weekends. I'd love to see patrols parked with lights flashing parked at several major intersections leading to & from downtown on weekends to deter the riff raff from even thinking about causing trouble.

Would be great if all the ratchet clubs downtown got shut down.

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I don't know y'all, I just don't see people going out of their way to drive to destination restaurants during a pandemic, which is why a lot of the places are closing.  Will it recover, of course eventually. But why locate on Church street now when there is little going on around and not the critical mass there once was?  I guess it depends on timing around things opening back up, the Magic games and events returning to Amway, and Orlando City pre-events, etc. as well as the future Under-I and MEC projects. 

Long term, the food hall will work out. But right now? 

I might just be projecting, but I do not go drive to restaurants at all right now and haven't for a while. I go get pick-up and take out and have gone to some that have outdoor seating such as Luke's and Rusteak, but I'm not driving to and walking into a food hall. 

 

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34 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

I don't know y'all, I just don't see people going out of their way to drive to destination restaurants during a pandemic, which is why a lot of the places are closing.  Will it recover, of course eventually. But why locate on Church street now when there is little going on around and not the critical mass there once was?  I guess it depends on timing around things opening back up, the Magic games and events returning to Amway, and Orlando City pre-events, etc. as well as the future Under-I and MEC projects. 

Long term, the food hall will work out. But right now? 

I might just be projecting, but I do not go drive to restaurants at all right now and haven't for a while. I go get pick-up and take out and have gone to some that have outdoor seating such as Luke's and Rusteak, but I'm not driving to and walking into a food hall. 

Maybe it has to do with construction contracts that were initiated and signed prior to the pandemic?  

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