The Edge | 32-Story Mixed Use + SunRail Station [Proposed/Demo Underway]

[jrs2]

7 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

So much for sense of place. Hulking black towers no more belong in Florida than a building with a palm tree in the middle belongs in Chicago. 

Architects have done charettes discussing the “Orlando palette” numerous time over the years. We should strive for buildings that neither look like they belong at the beach nor like a noir Batman fantasy in Gotham.

For heaven’s sake, let Orlando look like Orlando, and if we ever invest in building successful local firms like First National Bank at Orlando, Hughes Supply and the Orlando Sentinel again instead of throwing taxpayer money at firms like Sanford-Burnham that can’t wait to take the money and run, then we might stop trying to imitate everyone else and become us.
 

I don't think Orlando knows what "us" is, or is supposed to be.  they Orlandofied an SOM building with beige granite (granite is good) and teal highlights.  And because of that, it seems like Truist Plaza's eastern facade was tailored to match that and/or Lincoln Plaza (which was color palleted to compliment Suntrust).  

IMO, the hulking black towers belong in cities regardless of where they are.  Look at Miami, they have the hulking green glass yet dark Wells Fargo/Marriott Marquis in their downtown. Fabulous contrast.

I think it has to do with materials.  Those hulking black towers are really floor to ceiling glass walls with a framing of black aluminum panels.  CNA was the same thing except colorful Chicago decided, hey, paint the aluminum red.  The result was a unique "masterpiece."

In Orlando, Aspire (not the mental health facility) is blue-grey glass; that's fine; just get rid of the painted white balconies. same with Vue.  

But it does have to do with design as well.  I like Star and CitiTower and those are both white- but I like their designs.

I guess in the end my preference is based on feeling  like Orlando is lacking b/c they don't have enough of the really old buildings seen in Chicago and NYC as their core, with the history of contrasting designs from the '50's and '60's and '70's to add to that inventory. 

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, jrs2 said:

I don't think Orlando knows what "us" is, or is supposed to be.  they Orlandofied an SOM building with beige granite (granite is good) and teal highlights.  And because of that, it seems like Truist Plaza's eastern facade was tailored to match that and/or Lincoln Plaza (which was color palleted to compliment Suntrust).  

IMO, the hulking black towers belong in cities regardless of where they are.  Look at Miami, they have the hulking green glass yet dark Wells Fargo/Marriott Marquis in their downtown. Fabulous contrast.

I think it has to do with materials.  Those hulking black towers are really floor to ceiling glass walls with a framing of black aluminum panels.  CNA was the same thing except colorful Chicago decided, hey, paint the aluminum red.  The result was a unique "masterpiece."

In Orlando, Aspire (not the mental health facility) is blue-grey glass; that's fine; just get rid of the painted white balconies. same with Vue.  

But it does have to do with design as well.  I like Star and CitiTower and those are both white- but I like their designs.

I guess in the end my preference is based on feeling  like Orlando is lacking b/c they don't have enough of the really old buildings seen in Chicago and NYC as their core, with the history of contrasting designs from the '50's and '60's and '70's to add to that inventory. 

If we ever have a mayor that does the “vision thing” again (as Poppy Bush would say), that’s a community discussion that needs to take place. It’s not an accident that the charrettes took place with the encouragement of Mayor Bill, who took an active interest in design. Sadly, Buddy has all the creativity of an accountant.

If our leaders have no vision for the city, it’s hard to expect the residents who are mostly from somewhere else to think about it.

[JFW657]

14 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

 

14 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

If we ever have a mayor that does the “vision thing” again (as Poppy Bush would say), that’s a community discussion that needs to take place. It’s not an accident that the charrettes took place with the encouragement of Mayor Bill, who took an active interest in design. Sadly, Buddy has all the creativity of an accountant.

If our leaders have no vision for the city, it’s hard to expect the residents who are mostly from somewhere else to think about it.

Bill Frederick was Mayor of Orlando over three decades ago.

Architectural styles and trends have changed and evolved/devolved depending on one's POV.

But blaming the mayor because you don't like the current trends in architectural design is missing it by miles. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by JFW657

[jliv]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Bill Frederick was Mayor of Orlando over three decades ago.

Architectural styles and trends have changed and evolved/devolved depending on one's POV.

But blaming the mayor because you don't like the current trends in architectural design is missing it by miles. 

Every time @spenser1058mentions "Buddy", I have visions of someone in their basement with a voodoo doll with a lock of his hair pinned to it, maniacally laughing as they stab it with pins.  What did Buddy ever do him? (Enquiring minds want to know).

[jrs2]

39 minutes ago, jliv said:

Every time @spenser1058mentions "Buddy", I have visions of someone in their basement with a voodoo doll with a lock of his hair pinned to it, maniacally laughing as they stab it with pins.  What did Buddy ever do him? (Enquiring minds want to know).

I think we better create a human shield around The Budster when Spenser is around just to be safe...

[JFW657]

25 minutes ago, jliv said:

Every time @spenser1058mentions "Buddy", I have visions of someone in their basement with a voodoo doll with a lock of his hair pinned to it, maniacally laughing as they stab it with pins.  What did Buddy ever do him? (Enquiring minds want to know).

What I don't get is how/why our friend and fellow UPO'er still thinks/claims that the mayor has the level of input into the details of the designs of buildings created by architectural firms for privately owned corporations, that he seems to think he (the mayor) does.

Certainly, there is a review and approval process in place to kind of guide and steer these design submittals in a general direction, but they can only go so far in a legal and/or practical sense,

Making it too difficult and/or expensive to build in DTO by throwing up too many roadblocks and meddling too much in the design process, could cause companies to either sue or more likely just bypass DTO altogether.  

Not to mention that just because we don't like some of the architecture in DTO doesn't mean the majority of the public feels the same. 

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Bill Frederick was Mayor of Orlando over three decades ago.

Architectural styles and trends have changed and evolved/devolved depending on one's POV.

But blaming the mayor because you don't like the current trends in architectural design is missing it by miles. 

If I may chime in...

Maybe, maybe not on the mayor thing...

If you look at Chicago back in the day, Mayor Daley was at the forefront of quite a few major individual projects that represented bold visions for the city's evolution and growth.  Yeah, Dyer has done similarly here ala the 'three projects' plan a decade ago (Citrus Bowl, Amway, DPAC).  And  he did work with Mica on Sunrail in pushing that forward.  He also was a major voice with the development of Medical City in Lake Nona as well. And throw in CV as well.  He's been a big voice on these larger scale projects...

with regard to office and residential, it's like his office just leaves it to the market to dictate.  And when BB has representation on those boards for the past twenty years, we get the same looking stuff again and again.

At least with Chicago, if SOM had a similar tie in to the city like BB  does here, at least they were and are a cutting edge world class firm.  Many may not be aware, but if memory serves, SOM designed the Burj...

Funny story, when that guy was pushing for Maglev and for a minute due to the press I thought it had legs, I brought it up to Buddy at some function at the Marriott on Livingston.  Well, his response to me and the look he gave me was priceless, like I was smoking weed or something...

[JFW657]

11 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

If I may chime in...

Maybe, maybe not on the mayor thing...

If you look at Chicago back in the day, Mayor Daley was at the forefront of quite a few major individual projects that represented bold visions for the city's evolution and growth.  Yeah, Dyer has done similarly here ala the 'three projects' plan a decade ago (Citrus Bowl, Amway, DPAC).  And  he did work with Mica on Sunrail in pushing that forward.  He also was a major voice with the development of Medical City in Lake Nona as well. And throw in CV as well.  He's been a big voice on these larger scale projects...

with regard to office and residential, it's like his office just leaves it to the market to dictate.  And when BB has representation on those boards for the past twenty years, we get the same looking stuff again and again.

At least with Chicago, if SOM had a similar tie in to the city like BB  does here, at least they were and are a cutting edge world class firm.  Many may not be aware, but if memory serves, SOM designed the Burj...

Funny story, when that guy was pushing for Maglev and for a minute due to the press I thought it had legs, I brought it up to Buddy at some function at the Marriott on Livingston.  Well, his response to me and the look he gave me was priceless, like I was smoking weed or something...

Different dynamic at play in a city like Chicago vs Orlando.

Companies will jump through hoops and do whatever is asked/demanded to locate in major, established, corporate hub cities, whereas in DTO there isn't that kind of incentive. 

We are still, comparatively speaking, small potatoes. 

Ergo, our mayors don't have the clout of a Mayor Daley. 

[spenser1058]

3 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Bill Frederick was Mayor of Orlando over three decades ago.

Architectural styles and trends have changed and evolved/devolved depending on one's POV.

But blaming the mayor because you don't like the current trends in architectural design is missing it by miles. 

God forbid the current mayor brings  things up to speed. That’s the problem with Buddy - he doesn’t move forward, he just occupies the chair. What exactly are we paying this cipher six figures to do? This is so far from the strong mayor form of government that always kept Orlando at the forefront of DCentral Florida cities as to be laughable. 

1 hour ago, jliv said:

Every time @spenser1058mentions "Buddy", I have visions of someone in their basement with a voodoo doll with a lock of his hair pinned to it, maniacally laughing as they stab it with pins.  What did Buddy ever do him? (Enquiring minds want to know).

My requirements for public officials are simple - DO something (Buddy is the embodiment of the Peter Principle). I might add that as a native Floridian I’ve never had a basement. A voodoo doll might be fun…

Seriously, all public officials have blind spots (although Buddy’s are the size of a barn). It’s quite usual for the person following a political leader in office to emphasize different priorities than their predecessor, not to mention personalities.

A mayor in office for twenty years falls in the same ruts (in Buddy’s case, for example, a complete lack of interest in the historic downtown core). Almost every segment of the business and political community has complained about it, but in twenty years Buddy has yet to even mention it in a speech.

A way to get around that is to have someone on staff that takes an active interest, but Thomas Chatmon continues to demonstrate he’s as useless as teats on a boar hog when it gets down to it and that’s supposed to be his job. We won’t even discuss the ongoing personnel issues and dysfunction of the downtown and downtown-adjacent Main Street Districts.

Edited May 10, 2022 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, jliv said:

Every time @spenser1058mentions "Buddy", I have visions of someone in their basement with a voodoo doll with a lock of his hair pinned to it, maniacally laughing as they stab it with pins.  What did Buddy ever do him? (Enquiring minds want to know).

Unrequited love, maybe?     

 

[spenser1058]

20 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Unrequited love, maybe?     

 

Mayor Pete would be much more my type…

[jack]

2 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Different dynamic at play in a city like Chicago vs Orlando.

Companies will jump through hoops and do whatever is asked/demanded to locate in major, established, corporate hub cities, whereas in DTO there isn't that kind of incentive. 

We are still, comparatively speaking, small potatoes. 

Ergo, our mayors don't have the clout of a Mayor Daley. 

Chicago is too corrupt. Atlanta is a better example and matches what you just described. 

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, jack said:

Chicago is too corrupt. Atlanta is a better example and matches what you just described. 

...except for the fact that  Baker from BB was on the design board or whatever since before the mid-2000's and their firm got most all the contracts on new towers downtown...  and, Mears Motorcoach and OIA since the '60's... and Dyer's office and Universal interfering with Mangos' plans...all of that stunk to high heaven.  Oh, I forgot about the Baldwin Park/ Navy Base deal to the developer which was controversial.  Chicago doesn't have the corner on that...

Chicago may be corrupt but they think big and get stuff done and always have.   But they got a lot of $$$.

On that "big" note I will say that Orange Co kind of thinks big; the OCCC is first class huge and actually put the fear of God into The Windy City in the late-'90's as a major convention player- I know this for a fact with the Mayor's office back then under Richard M (or after).  And, OIA put a worrisome wrinkle to Hartsfield-Jackson/Delta Airlines with plans of expansion and Delta's meddling to dissuade it from happening.

5 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Different dynamic at play in a city like Chicago vs Orlando.

Companies will jump through hoops and do whatever is asked/demanded to locate in major, established, corporate hub cities, whereas in DTO there isn't that kind of incentive. 

We are still, comparatively speaking, small potatoes. 

Ergo, our mayors don't have the clout of a Mayor Daley. 

that may be trending in Orlando's favor with the Lake Nona-related business moves in  recent years...

[AmIReal]

6 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

God forbid the current mayor brings  things up to speed. That’s the problem with Buddy - he doesn’t move forward, he just occupies the chair. What exactly are we paying this cipher six figures to do? This is so far from the strong mayor form of government that always kept Orlando at the forefront of DCentral Florida cities as to be laughable. 

My requirements for public officials are simple - DO something (Buddy is the embodiment of the Peter Principle). I might add that as a native Floridian I’ve never had a basement. A voodoo doll might be fun…

Seriously, all public officials have blind spots (although Buddy’s are the size of a barn). It’s quite usual for the person following a political leader in office to emphasize different priorities than their predecessor, not to mention personalities.

A mayor in office for twenty years falls in the same ruts (in Buddy’s case, for example, a complete lack of interest in the historic downtown core). Almost every segment of the business and political community has complained about it, but in twenty years Buddy has yet to even mention it in a speech.

A way to get around that is to have someone on staff that takes an active interest, but Thomas Chatmon continues to demonstrate he’s as useless as teats on a boar hog when it gets down to it and that’s supposed to be his job. We won’t even discuss the ongoing personnel issues and dysfunction of the downtown and downtown-adjacent Main Street Districts.

May be you missed @jrs2 contribution re: what Dyer has done while he just occupies the chair, so I'll relist it for you...

6 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Dyer has done similarly here ala the 'three projects' plan a decade ago (Citrus Bowl, Amway, DPAC).  And  he did work with Mica on Sunrail in pushing that forward.  He also was a major voice with the development of Medical City in Lake Nona as well. And throw in CV as well.  He's been a big voice on these larger scale projects...

I think all of that is fairly significant, but to put a finer point on the difference between his administration and that of the past:

Downtown residents- Mayor Frederick was strongly opposed to residential development in the CBD. Fortunately, Mayor Hood started the trend away from that, but I think we can all agree it has significantly increased under Dyer.

Parramore- I know you like to think Mayor Frederick was being magnanimous and giving Parramore control over itself, but that is a joke. Past administrations did not invest in the area because their contributors did not want to see tax dollars being spent there. That is why the area continued the downward trend for several decades.

Affordable housing- see above. Dyer administration wins awards for public housing initiatives and Frederick administration loses Federal Court cases for same.

LBGTQ and POC initiatives- Yes, Frederick was a victim of his era, but nonetheless he was pretty unfriendly toward "outsider" constituents that did not fit his profile.

Btw, Dyer also moved us through the 911 downturn, the '08 market crash and the recent pandemic- all pretty successfully.

To claim Dyer hasn't moved the community forward is just being childish. To say "he just occupies the chair" and you want him to just "DO something" is being churlish. But to say previous administrations did a better job is just being oblivious to the facts.

 

 

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, AmIReal said:

May be you missed @jrs2 contribution re: what Dyer has done while he just occupies the chair, so I'll relist it for you...

I think all of that is fairly significant, but to put a finer point on the difference between his administration and that of the past:

Downtown residents- Mayor Frederick was strongly opposed to residential development in the CBD. Fortunately, Mayor Hood started the trend away from that, but I think we can all agree it has significantly increased under Dyer.

Parramore- I know you like to think Mayor Frederick was being magnanimous and giving Parramore control over itself, but that is a joke. Past administrations did not invest in the area because their contributors did not want to see tax dollars being spent there. That is why the area continued the downward trend for several decades.

Affordable housing- see above. Dyer administration wins awards for public housing initiatives and Frederick administration loses Federal Court cases for same.

LBGTQ and POC initiatives- Yes, Frederick was a victim of his era, but nonetheless he was pretty unfriendly toward "outsider" constituents that did not fit his profile.

Btw, Dyer also moved us through the 911 downturn, the '08 market crash and the recent pandemic- all pretty successfully.

To claim Dyer hasn't moved the community forward is just being childish. To say "he just occupies the chair" and you want him to just "DO something" is being churlish. But to say previous administrations did a better job is just being oblivious to the facts.

 

 

That's a Key & Peele reference...brilliant...

[HankStrong]

A-A-ron, you done messed up.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, HankStrong said:

A-A-ron, you done messed up.

A guy I knew from another forum (recently deceased) liked that bit so much he used A-A-ron as his screen name.  

[IAmFloridaBorn]

If this is already been posted, my apologies.

[codypet]

That interstate shield on 408 is triggering me.

[spenser1058]

I like to imagine the E-W one day extending from I-95 in the east to I-75 in the west and it could be badged Interstate 6. The tolling of course would be an issue…

[jrs2]

13 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

If this is already been posted, my apologies.

I'm honestly disappointed with your post, IamFloridaBorn.  Seriously?  I mean...your photos are so good I actually thought you would've figured out a way to break the laws of physics and to have gone three years into the future, taken a bunch of photos of this building, then traveled back in time to post them here.  Instead we have...this...hmmm...oh well...I guess this will do for now...

[codypet]

Old Fire Station #1 is in that rendering.

[HankStrong]

On 5/24/2022 at 10:00 AM, spenser1058 said:

I like to imagine the E-W one day extending from I-95 in the east to I-75 in the west and it could be badged Interstate 6. The tolling of course would be an issue…

I know it's not the CSP, but that would be amazing.

[jgardnerucf]

408 Christmas Express is already on the board I thought.

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, jgardnerucf said:

408 Christmas Express is already on the board I thought.

I don’t think it’s going all the way to 95 but that may have changed. You’re right, though, the east end seems to have more activity in play.