Ivanhoe Village / Loch Haven Park

[popsiclebrandon]

2 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Yeah, the idea that some people place a higher value on history and unique or interesting architecture over the kind of bland, boring, modern concrete and glass shoebox garbage that gets built everywhere around here these days, is just hard to fathom.

As if packing a few hundred more transplants like sardines into these ugly cans isn't worth destroying our city's identity for. 

Some people....   

Why not both? The city can create architectural requirements on different areas of the city like many cities do to create styles per neighborhood. No reason we couldn't have 3-5 nice 10-14 story towers on the site in an art deco-y look that both helps with the massive housing shortage and is visual appealing. These aren't binary choices. And if they are then yes tear down this complex and add a denser massing to the site.

[spenser1058]

2 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Yeah, the idea that some people place a higher value on history and unique or interesting architecture over the kind of bland, boring, modern concrete and glass shoebox garbage that gets built everywhere around here these days, is just hard to fathom.

As if packing a few hundred more transplants like sardines into these ugly cans isn't worth destroying our city's identity for. 

Some people....   

The funny part about that “land use stuff” is that it’s just the real estate version of Milton Friedman’s concept that the only responsibility businesspeople have is to the shareholders. That concept has been fading fast for a decade and major US corporations are gravitating away from it quickly. I’m not surprised the real estate industrial complex is the last to get with the program.

3 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Why not both? The city can create architectural requirements on different areas of the city like many cities do to create styles per neighborhood. No reason we couldn't have 3-5 nice 10-14 story towers on the site in an art deco-y look that both helps with the massive housing shortage and is visual appealing. These aren't binary choices. And if they are then yes tear down this complex and add a denser massing to the site.

we got the “Art Deco look” with the Paramount. It’s at best a sad imitation. What we need is leadership in the city that recognizes the value of things like history and, ummm, trees.

What’s funny is if you ever look at turnover in these towers is that people can’t wait to move out of them. 

[JFW657]

3 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Why not both? The city can create architectural requirements on different areas of the city like many cities do to create styles per neighborhood. No reason we couldn't have 3-5 nice 10-14 story towers on the site in an art deco-y look that both helps with the massive housing shortage and is visual appealing. These aren't binary choices. And if they are then yes tear down this complex and add a denser massing to the site.

That all sounds good on paper, but unless a developer really wants to build there because the profit potential is so high they'd be willing to invest all the extra money in construction costs involved in using the more expensive materials such designs require, they'd probably just pass. 

The reason we get those ugly boring boxes is because they are cheaper to build.

Another thing to consider is that if such an arrangement were made, demolition of the old complex could happen, then their financing could fall through.

Then we'd have lost that venerable old complex for nothing and be facing the spectre of looking at an empty eyesore for years.

I imagine someday that property will become so valuable it will get redeveloped.

I just hope it's not soon.   

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

That all sounds good on paper, but unless a developer really wants to build there because the profit potential is so high they'd be willing to invest all the extra money in construction costs involved in using the more expensive materials such designs require, they'd probably just pass. 

The reason we get those ugly boring boxes is because they are cheaper to build.

Another thing to consider is that if such an arrangement were made, demolition of the old complex could happen, then their financing could fall through.

Then we'd have lost that venerable old complex for nothing and be facing the spectre of looking at an empty eyesore for years.

I imagine someday that property will become so valuable it will get redeveloped.

I just hope it's not soon.   

...see Daytona Beach A1A corridor...

[prahaboheme]

Let’s all be clear about something — Orlando does have the power to control how buildings are designed and to a degree the quality with which the materials are used.

They actually do this all the time.

Developers will stoop to the LCD if they can. And well, they can in Orlando. It ends there.

Meanwhile, said developer is now charging rental rates at city markets with much higher average incomes.

[JFW657]

44 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Let’s all be clear about something — Orlando does have the power to control how buildings are designed and to a degree the quality with which the materials are used.

They actually do this all the time.

Developers will stoop to the LCD if they can. And well, they can in Orlando. It ends there.

Meanwhile, said developer is now charging rental rates at city markets with much higher average incomes.

Certainly the city can do that.

The question still comes down to economics.

Money.

Like I was saying above, the developers still have to be willing. The city can make all the demands it wants to, but if those demands cause the project's construction costs to rise beyond what the developers can afford to spend, they'll just pass.

Orlando isn't Brickell Avenue. 

They can get away with it down there because that's where the deep pockets are.

In Orlando, the trade off is either cut the developers some slack and get new buildings built which increases the tax base, or hold them to standards they can't or won't meet and let the parcels sit empty and undeveloped.

Not complicated.

[prahaboheme]

14 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Certainly the city can do that.

The question still comes down to economics.

Money.

Like I was saying above, the developers still have to be willing. The city can make all the demands it wants to, but if those demands cause the project's construction costs to rise beyond what the developers can afford to spend, they'll just pass.

Orlando isn't Brickell Avenue. 

They can get away with it down there because that's where the deep pockets are.

In Orlando, the trade off is either cut the developers some slack and get new buildings built which increases the tax base, or hold them to standards they can't or won't meet and let the parcels sit empty and undeveloped.

Not complicated.

But it is complicated. 
Not holding to a higher standard over a longer period ultimately brings down the entire brand. It’s happened to downtown Orlando. We’ve all seen it over the last 20 years.

[jack]

On 4/1/2022 at 7:31 PM, prahaboheme said:

Let’s all be clear about something — Orlando does have the power to control how buildings are designed and to a degree the quality with which the materials are used.

They actually do this all the time.

Developers will stoop to the LCD if they can. And well, they can in Orlando. It ends there.

Meanwhile, said developer is now charging rental rates at city markets with much higher average incomes.

True, but the cost to build has skyrocketed along with the surging rental rates. If we had these rental rates with construction costs of a few years ago, you could get some really nice buildings around here. 

[jrs2]

On 4/2/2022 at 11:13 AM, prahaboheme said:

But it is complicated. 
Not holding to a higher standard over a longer period ultimately brings down the entire brand. It’s happened to downtown Orlando. We’ve all seen it over the last 20 years.

I know...but they are still trying to solidify what the brand is me thinks...this is where the lack of those old buildings inventory that come with larger older cities comes in... I see it as a type of competition, ala, renovating an older building versus building a new one.  Here, for the most part, all they can do is build new.  Yes, economics is the ultimate arbiter of what they end up doing.  But it's like on Orange Ave...can you imagine the rents on some of those bars if they were all in new buildings?  None of them would stay open, or, to deflect the City-controlled lower rental rates, the developers would build super cheap buildings as a result.  oh, wait...

[spenser1058]

12 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

I know...but they are still trying to solidify what the brand is me thinks...this is where the lack of those old buildings inventory that come with larger older cities comes in... I see it as a type of competition, ala, renovating an older building versus building a new one.  Here, for the most part, all they can do is build new.  Yes, economics is the ultimate arbiter of what they end up doing.  But it's like on Orange Ave...can you imagine the rents on some of those bars if they were all in new buildings?  None of them would stay open, or, to deflect the City-controlled lower rental rates, the developers would build super cheap buildings as a result.  oh, wait...

All you have to do is drive along N. Orange and look at those apartments built on the east side -Good Lord, it’s a Stalinist fantasy.

And they want the whole freaking neighborhood to look like that. 

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

All you have to do is drive along N. Orange and look at those apartments built on the east side -Good Lord, it’s a Stalinist fantasy.

And they want the whole freaking neighborhood to look like that. 

imagine if the City approved those massing studies of The Sentinel property which appeared to be based on Steelhouse...

[prahaboheme]

4 hours ago, jrs2 said:

I know...but they are still trying to solidify what the brand is me thinks...this is where the lack of those old buildings inventory that come with larger older cities comes in... I see it as a type of competition, ala, renovating an older building versus building a new one.  Here, for the most part, all they can do is build new.  Yes, economics is the ultimate arbiter of what they end up doing.  But it's like on Orange Ave...can you imagine the rents on some of those bars if they were all in new buildings?  None of them would stay open, or, to deflect the City-controlled lower rental rates, the developers would build super cheap buildings as a result.  oh, wait...

I know this is the world we live in now but, please please please use punctuation.

[JFW657]

Just saw an update on the Holocaust Museum on the local news.

New renderings look like it's been expanded to the point where I'm not sure they're even keeping the original structure.

If so, it's barely recognizable.

I think the first and next to last pics might show the portion where original building is.

At any rate, they're talking about ground breaking late 2023 with opening planned for 2025.

https://www.wftv.com/news/holocaust-memorial-center-offers-sneak-peek-its-new-orlando-facility/2bcafbad-c5a1-491c-b4ae-699b122c54cb/

[AmIReal]

Ouch... "The F.B.I.’s Art Crime Team is investigating the authenticity of 25 paintings that the Orlando Museum of Art says were created by Basquiat and are on exhibit there"

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/arts/design/fbi-basquiat-paintings-orlando-museum.html

 

[spenser1058]

The FBI likely chose now to make its move because the collection heads to Italy next month. 

Such back and forth over authenticity has long been part of the art world. Many museums with pedigrees and histories far eclipsing OMA’s have been ensnared in the process.

As the head of OMA’s board, Cynthia Brumback, told the Sentinel, the results for OMA at going ahead with displaying the collection have been uniformly positive in terms of giving, membership and increased diversity.

The bottom line is that art is entertainment, even if it often moves in rarefied circles. In entertainment, there is no such thing as bad publicity. Before, OMA did not show up as even a blip on the radar of the art world. Now, it does.

Although in totally different spheres, this is similar to UCF’s mythical National 2017 Championship. Whether earned or not (and, yes, the NCAA recognized it the following year along with Alabama as both valid thanks to the Colley Matrix - the NCAA does not actually name a champion for the BCS), UCF went from a no-name directional school in the football world that most had never heard of. Today, whether they love it or hate it, everyone with in an interest in the sport knows about UCF.

The same may  now be said for OMA in the art world no matter how this turns out. 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

On 5/30/2022 at 9:01 AM, spenser1058 said:

The FBI likely chose now to make its move because the collection heads to Italy next month. 

Such back and forth over authenticity has long been part of the art world. Many museums with pedigrees and histories far eclipsing OMA’s have been ensnared in the process.

As the head of OMA’s board, Cynthia Brumback, told the Sentinel, the results for OMA at going ahead with displaying the collection have been uniformly positive in terms of giving, membership and increased diversity.

The bottom line is that art is entertainment, even if it often moves in rarefied circles. In entertainment, there is no such thing as bad publicity. Before, OMA did not show up as even a blip on the radar of the art world. Now, it does.

Although in totally different spheres, this is similar to UCF’s mythical National 2017 Championship. Whether earned or not (and, yes, the NCAA recognized it the following year along with Alabama as both valid thanks to the Colley Matrix - the NCAA does not actually name a champion for the BCS), UCF went from a no-name directional school in the football world that most had never heard of. Today, whether they love it or hate it, everyone with in an interest in the sport knows about UCF.

The same may  now be said for OMA in the art world no matter how this turns out. 

you got a "like" for quoting the Colley Matrix.  kudos.  LOL

[popsiclebrandon]

This story gets worse and worse for OMA every day. It seems so obvious they decided to be a Ripleys over a real art museum and wanted money over you know, art. If that is going to be the direction of things moving forward then fine but lets not pretend they care about art.

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/arts/with-an-fbi-art-crime-investigation-now-underway-things-just-keep-looking-worse-for-orlando-museum-of-arts-heroes-and-monsters-exhibit-31764930

[spenser1058]

The FBI (presumably the Art Crimes team), armed with a warrant, is removing boxes from OMA. So far, no arrests are involved.

 

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-ne-fbi-raids-orlando-museum-basquiat-20220624-ejasgjfxpvbxzjxuszlkgbrozy-story.html

From The Sentinel 

Stay tuned…

 

 

[prahaboheme]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The FBI (presumably the Art Crimes team), armed with a warrant, is removing boxes from OMA. So far, no arrests are involved.

 

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-ne-fbi-raids-orlando-museum-basquiat-20220624-ejasgjfxpvbxzjxuszlkgbrozy-story.html

From The Sentinel 

Stay tuned…

 

 

Considering the heist of the Gardner Museum and it’s revered paintings remains unsolved for 40 years, I don’t place much faith in the Arts Crimes division to come to a meaningful decision on OMA. 
But hey, the popularity of the Gardner is very much tied to its unique history of the heist so maybe OMA is onto something.

And to think more about, who can do “fake” better than Orlando?

[spenser1058]

Just now, prahaboheme said:

Considering the heist of the Gardner Museum and it’s revered paintings remains unsolved for 40 years, I don’t place much faith in the Arts Crimes division to come to a meaningful decision on OMA. 
But hey, the popularity of the Gardner is very much tied to its unique history of the heist so maybe OMA is onto something.

I very much agree - this has gotten OMA more interest than it’s probably ever had.

Scott Maxwell made a valid point that they probably should have included the discussion of authenticity more fully in the presentation (a great teaching moment - such debates go back centuries in the art world).

I think  OMA’s decision to be a little “edgy” with this is a net plus, especially in the local community. 

[codypet]

19 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

And to think more about, who can do “fake” better than Orlando?

Vegas, Beverly Hills, Los Angeles

[spenser1058]

While the particulars are very different, it’s worth remembering a Cincinnati museum bringing the Mapplethorpe  exhibit to town 30-some years ago, knowing full well the then-conservative city didn’t like the idea, changed not only Cincy’s perception of itself, but how the nation thought of it as well.

Two of the largest corporations headquartered there are a case in point. Both Kroger, but especially Procter & Gamble were well-known for their conservatism among American companies. Today, both have near perfect scores on the Human Rights Campaign’s Corporate Equality Index (locally, Publix refuses to even complete the survey - no doubt because of what it would tell us).

Art shouldn’t always fit into tried-and-true boundaries. It has the ability, even when uncomfortable, to stretch a community’s thinking.

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by spenser1058

[prahaboheme]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

While the particulars are very different, it’s worth remembering a Cincinnati museum bringing the Mapplethorpe  exhibit to town 30-some years ago, knowing full well the then-conservative city didn’t like the idea, changed not only Cincy’s perception of itself, but how the nation thought of it as well.

Two of the largest corporations headquartered there are a case in point. Both Kroger, but especially Procter & Gamble were well-known for their conservatism among American companies. Today, both score near perfect scores on the Human Rights Campaign’s Corporate Equality Index.

Art shouldn’t always fit into tried-and-true boundaries. It has the ability, even when uncomfortable, to stretch a community’s thinking.

 

All the more reason why the failed and contrived “Chihuly” OMA in South Eola should be laid to rest permanently. 

[spenser1058]

Orlando Museum of Art director out after FBI’s Basquiat raid
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-ne-orlando-museum-aaron-degroft--20220629-ngbxfejtvnhzxnn2o2zpcquhzi-story.html

“Aaron De Groft has been replaced as director and CEO of the Orlando Museum of Art, the organization announced late Tuesday night, amid the fallout of questions about the authenticity of paintings by artist Jean-Michel Basquiat and an FBI raid on the museum last week. “Effective immediately, Aaron De Groft is no longer Director and CEO of Orlando Museum of Art,” Cynthia Brumback, chair of museum’s board, said in an emailed statement to the Orlando Sentinel. “Joann Walfish, a longtime employee who has served as CFO, has been appointed interim COO and will lead the organization during this transition.”

From The Sentinel 

No word yet if he jumped or was pushed.

Edited June 29, 2022 by spenser1058

[popsiclebrandon]

Board has to be completely replaced too. Just an incredible job by everyone to willfully ignore obvious fraud. Bet some of our fav local lawyers get a nice lawsuit going against OMA.