Beacon Partners- LoSo Station

[j-man]

1 hour ago, Nathan2 said:

and its literally right next to the blue line. It all seems a little self defeating. 

Do y’all really think that the Lynx that only goes in the direction of north and south in a fairly straight line makes that much of a difference for parking. I bet the amount of people that work/live along the line is below 10 percent. This is not the NY subway people lol. 

[Nathan2]

2 hours ago, j-man said:

Do y’all really think that the Lynx that only goes in the direction of north and south in a fairly straight line makes that much of a difference for parking. I bet the amount of people that work/live along the line is below 10 percent. This is not the NY subway people lol. 

we do understand that. The problem is that these places are being built to cater to people that do live/work along the line. How are we supposed to get people out of their cars or even the choice later (when we have more lines) when every residential and business building has way more parking than necessary. 

[TCLT]

4 hours ago, Nathan2 said:

and its literally right next to the blue line. It all seems a little self defeating. 

But it's a park and ride station and the parking decks are also replacing all of the spots that were in the surface lots prior to this development.

[j-man]

2 hours ago, Nathan2 said:

we do understand that. The problem is that these places are being built to cater to people that do live/work along the line. How are we supposed to get people out of their cars or even the choice later (when we have more lines) when every residential and business building has way more parking than necessary. 

Charlotte like any other city outside of maybe Chicago and NY will be a city that you’ll pretty much always need a car because it’s impossible to have everything you need near a public transportation option. So if a person did live/work along the line, I’m sure they will eventually still need or want a car in order to actually leave and go wherever. Sorry but this idea that people want won’t happen in our lifetime. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by j-man

[kermit]

9 minutes ago, j-man said:

Charlotte like any other city outside of maybe Chicago and NY will be a city that you’ll pretty much always need a car because it’s impossible to have everything you need or near a public transportation option.

This is a strawman. Between transit to work, my bike, Lyft (before the 'troubles") and Enterprise and Budget just down the road I could get everything I needed in Charlotte, or out of town, without a car without any serious difficulty. This lifestyle would be significantly cheaper than the $8,000 annual expense of actually owning a car. I am not the only person able to live car free in Charlotte (and I don't live uptown). 

9 minutes ago, j-man said:

Sorry but this idea that people want won’t happen in our lifetime. 

Again, this is bullcrap. Its already happening. People here are happy without cars and developers (e.g. Grubb) are beginning to see that.  Look closer.

Edited July 20, 2020 by kermit

[j-man]

4 minutes ago, kermit said:

This is a strawman. Between transit to work, my bike, Lyft (before the 'troubles") and Enterprise and Budget just down the road I could get everything I needed in Charlotte without a car without any serious difficulty. I am not the only person able to live car free in Charlotte. 

Again, this is bullcrap. Its already happening. Look around more.

You’re missing my overall point. What I’m saying is that it’s just absurd to think that a large amount of adult will just forgo having a car in general. Don’t y’all want to ever leave the city, go on a trip every other weekend maybe to the mountains, a trail, the beach. Like I get what everyone is saying but you literally couldn’t really cross the border down into SC with paying a ridiculous amount to Uber to someplace close like Rock Hill. I don’t see the desire for that and like I mentioned I feel the major cities like San Fran, Chicago, DC, and NY are places you can get away with that because of their density. They are a small urban core with urban sprawl everywhere like the biggest cities in the south like Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, Jacksonville, Atlanta, and Austin. Just doesn’t seem realistic to think that many people would want or will ever in this lifetime have that option here. 

[kermit]

17 minutes ago, j-man said:

You’re missing my overall point. What I’m saying is that it’s just absurd to think that a large amount of adult will just forgo having a car in general. Don’t y’all want to ever leave the city, go on a trip every other weekend maybe to the mountains, a trail, the beach. Like I get what everyone is saying but you literally couldn’t really cross the border down into SC with paying a ridiculous amount to Uber to someplace close like Rock Hill. I don’t see the desire for that and like I mentioned I feel the major cities like San Fran, Chicago, DC, and NY are places you can get away with that because of their density. They are a small urban core with urban sprawl everywhere like the biggest cities in the south like Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, Jacksonville, Atlanta, and Austin. Just doesn’t seem realistic to think that many people would want or will ever in this lifetime have that option here. 

You are missing my point.

I can do all of those things without owning a car. Car rental companies are all over (and transit accessible). Its actually cheaper for MANY people to rent or share cars instead of own them. It would be really nice if developers  didn't force those people to pay for a parking space that they will never use.

Edited July 20, 2020 by kermit

[j-man]

7 minutes ago, kermit said:

You are missing my point.

I can do all of those things without owning a car. Car rental companies are all over (and transit accessible). Its actually cheaper for MANY people to rent or share cars instead of own them. It would be really nice if developers  didn't force those people to pay for a parking space that they will never use.

I hear what you’re saying. Buuuuutt you have to be a special kind of person to want to go through a hassle like all of that just to get around. But I know someone who lives in SouthEnd and she said she spends about 4 times as much per month on pubic transportation than she would if she just had a car. So she gave in a purchased one I believe already. 

[kermit]

1 minute ago, j-man said:

I hear what you’re saying. Buuuuutt you have to be a special kind of person to want to go through a hassle like all of that just to get around. But I know someone who lives in SouthEnd and she said she spends about 4 times as much per month on pubic transportation than she would if she just had a car. So she gave in a purchased one I believe already. 

No, this is more bullcrap. You don't need to be a 'special kind of person.' Going car free certainly isn't for everyone, but many, many people can do it. . More importantly, many people are unable to drive at all, why do we want to create a built environment that excludes those people?

Why are you so invested in enabling auto dependence?

[atlrvr]

I hear what you are saying J-Man....I live in Dilworth, but if my company moved my office to LoSo, I'd still drive.  Even though I'm in a walkable in-town neighborhood ( I walk to every Panther game) I still find getting to LoSo a huge hassle relative to driving, especially having to wear business attire.

Either I walk a few blocks to CMC, wait for a bus downtown, change to LRT at the CTC, and take that down, or bike 5-6 mins to Bland St and take the train....both of these options are more than double my commute time, and in anything less than ideal conditions, would be less pleasant.

And that's the attitude of someone who is in a transit friendly neighborhood, and is predisposed to all things urban.  My boss lives in Ballantyne, his boss lives in Myers Park, and his boss in Cornelius...I can only imagine their excitement in signing a lease with limited parking.

Edit:. Lastly, if my company moved to a building with no parking, I'd figure it out and deal with it....others, who I assume the company value, I suspect wouldn't, and look for a different employer, which isn't a win.  

These conversations typically get framed in the extremes, much like politics, where what most people probably believe is there should be reasonable accomodations for all preferences.

[j-man]

2 minutes ago, kermit said:

No, this is more bullcrap. You don't need to be a 'special kind of person.' Going car free certainly isn't for everyone, but many, many people can do it. . More importantly, many people are unable to drive at all, why do we want to create a built environment that excludes those people?

Why are you so invested in enabling auto dependence?

Again you’re missing my point. I never said anything about enabling auto independence. We just have to be realistic and say that cities were always planned “for” the automobile and trying to change that while population is increasing higher than ever, and so much has already been established “for” the car, it’s just not realistic. What I’m saying is that developments should have everybody in mind, the car owners and non car owners and develop accordingly. I mean the streetcar and Lynx are there for a reason and they are beside roads for cars. It’s not like there is any major plan to eliminate cars all together. So having parking for everyone to me is a must. I personally would love a carfree city but there are no plans for it. Just plans to make it a little less car populated. Nobody is forcing anyone to use the parking though I get paying for it is not fair either .

[videtur quam contuor]

"Nobody is forcing anyone to use the parking though I get paying for it is not fair either ."

I want to hear more about this concept that parking costs are unfair

Edited July 20, 2020 by tarhoosier

[j-man]

10 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

I hear what you are saying J-Man....I live in Dilworth, but if my company moved my office to LoSo, I'd still drive.  Even though I'm in a walkable in-town neighborhood ( I walk to every Panther game) I still find getting to LoSo a huge hassle relative to driving, especially having to wear business attire.

Either I walk a few blocks to CMC, wait for a bus downtown, change to LRT at the CTC, and take that down, or bike 5-6 mins to Bland St and take the train....both of these options are more than double my commute time, and in anything less than ideal conditions, would be less pleasant.

And that's the attitude of someone who is in a transit friendly neighborhood, and is predisposed to all things urban.  My boss lives in Ballantyne, his boss lives in Myers Park, and his boss in Cornelius...I can only imagine their excitement in signing a lease with limited parking.

Yes! Thank you for breaking that down because that’s just what I’m saying. And not everyone wants to live in such a busy urban core. And if they do live there, who says they willing work there. Majority of jobs aren’t even in center city or along the rail system so its just all too much to consider. Some people live in Concord, some live in Waxhaw,  and they work uptown, and if they did live in uptown the options are still limited on getting groceries and the hassle to cary them, medical facilities like major hospitals, and so on. In a perfect world I’d love for everything to be walkable and have no wait time on public transport so the options of having parking if I need sounds more reasonable. 

8 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

"Nobody is forcing anyone to use the parking though I get paying for it is not fair either ."

I want to hear more about this concept that parking costs are unfair

I was just responding to what was said to me. He said it’s not fair or right that people have to pay for parking that they don’t use. I’m assuming he’s talking about residential. Which I have heard that they include parking prices in rent. 

[cltbwimob]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

This is a strawman. Between transit to work, my bike, Lyft (before the 'troubles") and Enterprise and Budget just down the road I could get everything I needed in Charlotte, or out of town, without a car without any serious difficulty. This lifestyle would be significantly cheaper than the $8,000 annual expense of actually owning a car. I am not the only person able to live car free in Charlotte (and I don't live uptown). 

Again, this is bullcrap. Its already happening. People here are happy without cars and developers (e.g. Grubb) are beginning to see that.  Look closer.

Sorry Kermit...J-man is correct.

A) Technical point: His argument is not a straw man.

B) You base your entire argument on an extremely small data set (I.e. you and you alone).  And you are living in fantasy land if you believe that most -or even a sizable minority- of people in Charlotte have either a living arrangement or the economic means (or both) to do what you suggest in your post.  

1 hour ago, kermit said:

You are missing my point.

I can do all of those things without owning a car. Car rental companies are all over (and transit accessible). Its actually cheaper for MANY people to rent or share cars instead of own them. It would be really nice if developers  didn't force those people to pay for a parking space that they will never use.

FWIW: The cost of owning a car for a year is estimated at $8,000. Renting cars is not particularly expensive, at $30 bucks a day you can have a rental for 266 days a year.

FWIW#1: My truck is paid off and has been for years.  Ergo my ownership cost I estimate to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $5500/year (gas, insurance,  about $2000/year in repairs-she’s old, etc). For the $30/day hypothetical rental, I can have a subcompact car as opposed to the versatility of a four door full size pickup for 180 days/year and still need transportation for the other 185 days (I live and work no where near public transit and a Lyft/Uber would probably cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $20/per direction). Oh by the way, I would still have to pay for gas and my own insurance unless I wanted to pay for it through the rental agency which costs an arm and a leg.  Now I know my situation represents a single data point, but you based your argument on your personal situation.

FWIW#2: Even if people were to give up personal cars in favor of rentals guess what they’d need...a place to park it.

Edited July 20, 2020 by cltbwimob

[Desert Power]

8 hours ago, Nathan2 said:

On 7/17/2020 at 11:30 PM, CLT> said:

The sheer amount of parking is.... wow.

and its literally right next to the blue line. It all seems a little self defeating. 

Isn't this replacing the park-n-ride? I don't have a problem with large garages for park-n-ride like this.

[CLT704]

I'm with kermit on this one. I live in NoDa without a car just fine. I am from London though so am used to not having a car, although comparing CATS to TfL would be laughable. I wouldn't be able to afford the lifestyle I currently have if I factored in car expenses, when NC properly reopens I will get a monthly transit pass for $88- it is a no brainer. Is not having a car sometimes a nuisance? Yes, absolutely but it is not a hinderance. The only reason I would want a car is to go on trips to the mountains or the beach but, having just reread kermit's post, renting a car when I really need to scratch that itch and get out of Charlotte would work. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by CLT704

[KJHburg]

Just now, Desert Power said:

Isn't this replacing the park-n-ride? I don't have a problem with large garages for park-n-ride like this.

Yes part of the condition is they the developer has to replace the parking spaces in a garage so the garage would serve the office tenants and the park and ride to certain extent how that is going to work I dont know.  Probably gated access to the office tenant parking and once the park and ride is full it is full.  

[videtur quam contuor]

TfL=Transport for London. The agency responsible for public transport in the capital region.

[Desert Power]

Also, I wish Charlotte was a better place to go carless. But, unless you are in a couple of specific locations living and working in Uptown/South End, it just is not a reality. Lack of grocery (getting somewhat better) and retail is a big part of that.

[kermit]

12 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

Sorry Kermit...J-man is correct.

A) Technical point: His argument is not a straw man.

B) You base your entire argument on an extremely small data set (I.e. you and you alone).  And you are living in fantasy land if you believe that most -or even a sizable minority- of people in Charlotte have either a living arrangement or the economic means (or both) to do what you suggest in your post.  

FWIW#1: My truck is paid off and has been for years.  Ergo my ownership cost I estimate to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $5500/year (gas, insurance,  about $2000/year in repairs-she’s old, etc). For the $30/day hypothetical rental, I can have a subcompact car as opposed to the versatility of a four door full size pickup for 180 days/year and still need transportation for the other 185 days (I live and work no where near public transit and a Lyft/Uber would probably cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $20/per direction). Oh by the way, I would still have to pay for gas and my own insurance unless I wanted to pay for it through the rental agency which costs an arm and a leg.  Now I know my situation represents a single data point, but you based your argument on your personal situation.

FWIW#2: Even if people were to give up personal cars in favor of rentals guess what they’d need...a place to park it.

I never really knew what a strawman was, my bad.

However, J-man said two things that are clearly not correct (and they pushed my buttons):

1. Its impossible to live without a car in Charlotte
2. The ability to live without a car in Charlotte won't happen in our lifetime

Both these points are false based on my single, unrepresentative, data point, but false nonetheless.  I never implied my behavior was widespread, but its certainly not as rare as many seem to think. I can say with some authority that there are Charlotte residents who manage to live normal lives without cars. There would be lots more if drivers didn’t get massive subsidies (such as parking). Many more would abandon their cars if there was a decent alternative mobility infrastructure.

While I am not particularly offended by the amount of parking at Scaleybark (it has been a park and ride since 2007) I do believe that every new parking space makes us more auto dependent. It seems quite clear that we need to end auto dependence in my lifetime (this is not the same thing as eliminating cars) for climate reasons. Lets not fool ourselves, cars are unsustainable. Every new parking space reduces property values (by reducing the productivity of urban space). Cities that cling to auto dependence are going to become the next Detroit, its not hard to avoid that fate, all we gotta do is build  a city where people don't need to have a car to survive. The first step in doing that is by preventing unlimited, free parking.

13 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

"Nobody is forcing anyone to use the parking though I get paying for it is not fair either ."

I want to hear more about this concept that parking costs are unfair

Every time someone parks they consume real estate. When parking is 'free' (not charged at the point of consumption) then its actual cost gets embedded into rent, groceries, clothing, or office space (whatever is being consumed) regardless of how the resident/visitor/worker gets there. This forces non-drivers to subsidise  the rent for every driver's metal box storage through higher prices/rent/lower wages. These subsidies are relatively small (except in the case of structured parking) but collectively they have the effect of encouraging driving and discouraging alternative transportation. Imagine how much less likely you would be to drive to the grocery store two blocks away from home if you knew you had to pay $2 to park there? Requiring people to pay the true cost of parking, rather than bundling it with other consumption,  would change how all of us look at driving -- and make all of us better off.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by kermit

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Imagine how the decision process of someone grocery shopping two blocks away from home if they knew they had to pay $2 to park at the Teeter? (or at any other grocery store). Requiring people to pay the true cost of parking, rather than bundling it with other consumption,  would change how all of us look at driving -- this would make all of us better off.

I think this is true-to some extent. 

I often look to Los Angeles in this aspect. Los Angeles has an impressive array of fixed guideway projects (both subway and LRT) that are either under construction or planned that should make basically every Charlottean jealous. Their recent funding measure (Measure M) added an additional sales tax levy for transit projects and passed with a whopping 70%. It's fantastic for LA, and I really like their transit system for its cleanliness and ease of use.  Here is the thing though: no one is talking about how to get people out of their cars, and how to reduce the number of cars in general in the city. There are lots of places in Los Angeles that require paid parking (grocery stores, Target, other similar places etc) and yet it still doesn't deter folks from driving there. 

I told several of my friends both in LA and Angelenos elsewhere that I ride the Metro there, and they all act like I am crazy. I had dinner with a friend the other night here in DC (who has lived in LA her entire life) and has never ridden the Metro, yet has no issue living without a car in DC. 

To me getting rid of free parking as a traffic mitigation/auto elimination measure is important, but can only work if it is applied in tandem with other measures, like building apartments without parking period, improving the infrastructure for pedestrians so that people actually want to walk (and feel safe in doing so), etc. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by LKN704

[TheOneRJ]

[JHart]

We are getting away from the LoSo discussion entirely, but I would say I am ok with the absorption of the park-n-ride lots into the new decks, but total parking in general is excessive in Charlotte.  The fact that everyone cannot fathom people living without a car in Charlotte really shows you the demographics of the users of this site. There are tens of thousands of people that live in Charlotte and don't own cars. They take the bus to their jobs, they take 2 or 3 buses to the grocery store, they take buses, or catch a ride with a friend or family to go anywhere because it is too expensive to own a car for a huge population of people.

I'm with @kermit, start breaking the cost of parking out of all developments to help people see the actual cost. Have your apartments require annual passes to park instead of defaulting to 2 parking spaces per apartment and see if you get the same number of people parking on a regular basis. The high cost of parking in Uptown plus the cost of the commute does incentivize people to take the express buses from dense suburbs.

I've heard somewhat promising things from the future city plan about promoting rezoning Charlotte neighborhoods as mini urban hubs so that each neighborhood has access to essentials within 10 minutes , but we will see how that turns out. 

[Desert Power]

16 hours ago, kermit said:

I never really knew what a strawman was, my bad.

However, J-man said two things that are clearly not correct (and they pushed my buttons):

1. Its impossible to live without a car in Charlotte
2. The ability to live without a car in Charlotte won't happen in our lifetime

Both these points are false based on my single, unrepresentative, data point, but false nonetheless.  I never implied my behavior was widespread, but its certainly not as rare as many seem to think. I can say with some authority that there are Charlotte residents who manage to live normal lives without cars. There would be lots more if drivers didn’t get massive subsidies (such as parking). Many more would abandon their cars if there was a decent alternative mobility infrastructure.

Yeah. You certainly CAN live without a car in Charlotte, but it is mostly going to be a PITA for you. I've done it for basically 18 months myself. We need to work to improve connectivty between neighborhoods to enable more bike/ped/scooter traffic and we need a more reliable/better funded CATS.

[gman430]