Fountain Vu 5 [Under Construction]

[dcluley98]

Yeah, me too!  I think this project is going to be really cool. 

I would love to live there if I could ever afford that. I think they will end up being over a million each at least. Stone's throw from lake Eola and more amenities coming to this area with Radius and the Hotel building out. 

[spenser1058]

41 minutes ago, Jvest55 said:

Forgot about this project. Glad to see they didn't remove those trees.

SAVE THE TREE! sorry got carried away..

[dcluley98]

They saved 4 trees. Granted, they are not  as huge as the one over at Zoi House lot, but a great  win for Eola Heights neighborhood to keep these trees there and have a classy project. I like the Samsara developer. He seems to understand some preservation aspects of his redevelopment activities. 

[spenser1058]

10 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

They saved 4 trees. Granted, they are not  as huge as the one over at Zoi House lot, but a great  win for Eola Heights neighborhood to keep these trees there and have a classy project. I like the Samsara developer. He seems to understand some preservation aspects of his redevelopment activities. 

Yes, I saw him at a neighborhood meeting. and it seemed like he really had a feel for the ideas many of us have. 

[dcluley98]

[dcluley98]

This building is going to be TALL for a townhouse. Up to 3 stories. They have 1.5 to go with a deck that will clear the oak trees. 

[spenser1058]

17 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

This building is going to be TALL for a townhouse. Up to 3 stories. They have 1.5 to go with a deck that will clear the oak trees. 

SAVE THE TREE!

[orange87]

Something like Fountain Vu 5 would go great on Hicks Ave, S. Terry Ave. and Chapman Ct. Why are there three vacant streets right next to each other this close to the heart of DT Orlando? Anybody know?

[spenser1058]

It starts with the fact those streets were on the wrong side of Division (then St., now Ave.) In the days of Jim Crow, the city allowed industrial and commercial to be juxtaposed with residential in Black neighborhoods.

When Mayor Bill came to office, he set out to make a deal with Black leaders. It essentially allowed Parramore to be hands off in exchange for their support of the John Young Parkway extension between Old Winter Garden Rd and I-4.

The agreement was made, the road got built, but essentially nothing happened in the neighborhood. Mayor Glenda, as a Republican, never really had the credibility to revisit the issue and she was quickly preoccupied with light rail and Baldwin Park.

Meanwhile, organizations like Carolina-Florida Properties started buying blocks of Parramore for resale (at a huge profit) for the new Federal Courthouse and other new buildings just west of I-4. They had no interest in the community, they just wanted the bucks.

Then, Buddy came in and announced the success or failure of his administration would be what happened to Parramore.

The only problem was that, where Mayor Bill encouraged Eola Heights and Thornton Park/ Lake Lawsona to rebuild organically by encouraging everyday folks to restore the neighborhoods one block at a time, Buddy had no interests beyond massive corporate redevelopment and Moses-like “big projects”.

So, the land bankers had cleared the land and waited (decades if necessary) for a payout. When the big projects got built, they did nothing to promote community (would you want to live next door to a soccer stadium?)

Thus after 17 years in office, Parramore is still mostly a mess and empty blocks abound. It didn’t have to be this way but , just as he’s shown no interest in the historic core that makes downtown Orlando unique, he has little interest in promoting the community activism that could redevelop Parramore, Callahan and Concord Park.

We are fortunate Mayor Bill, despite his blind spots, welcomed the community to restore Eola. Buddy can’t be bothered with anyone but corporate interests. 
 

It is what it is and won’t soon change. And, as we learned with Cabrini Green (Google it), massive residential projects in blighted areas do little good because there is no sense of community and, even more importantly, no sense of ownership. But, hey, developers make lots of money on them and that’s all that matters, right?

Edited June 18, 2020 by spenser1058

[dcluley98]

Also, Terry Re-alignment will be taking place after Ultimate project is done. Not sure who owns all the lots around Terry, but I believe the ROW and lot sizes will be changing and some may be owned by governmental agencies to accomplish this.  Search this forum for Terry Avenue plan in Creative Village Thread to see what I am referring to. 

I believe Bags, Inc. bought a great deal of that land intending to build a new HQ building downtown, but it fell through after their business faltered. So there were some grand plans for those empty parcels, but the financials and timing overwhelmed them.   https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-bz-bags-inc-downtown-headquarters-20180112-story.html

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2018/03/02/orlando-based-travel-services-firm-buys-land-for.html

"The firm bought nine parcels of land totaling 1.43 acres for $1.15 million from the city of Orlando on March 1, 2018, according to Orange County records.

Bags Inc. provides services for millions of visitors who travel here every year. The company works with many local tourism-related businesses and is an active voice in tourism community.

The company's partners include American Airlines Group Inc. (Nasdaq: AAL), Carnival Cruise Line (NYSE: CCL), Delta Air Lines Inc. (NYSE: DAL), Westin Hotels & Resorts, Starwood Hotels & Resorts and many more."

WHOOPS!

Edited June 18, 2020 by dcluley98

[spenser1058]

Yes, any day now, the same developers who have said downtown Orlando is dead and boring despite doing it their way for close to two decades are going to save everything. Thanks for clearing that up.

Meanwhile, they’re running off the last successful business on that end of Church St. Not to worry, they’re going to fix everything because developers building sterile, homely buildings are the answers to all our problems!

We were told more residents in apartment towers would solve everything but yet the amount of retail has actually declined. But don’t worry - the developers will fix everything!

Edited June 18, 2020 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

Here’s something to ponder - why are the interesting parts of town - College Park, Audubon Park (plus small towns like Winter Garden and Winter Park) the places with few towers and few developers? 
 

Think about that for a moment.

[dcluley98]

Shhhh. . . 

Don't want to bother people with things like trees and local businesses.  . .  

(Eola Heights, Thornton Park, Ivanhoe Village, Mills 50,  Milk District, aham, and the list  goes on)

[jack]

14 hours ago, orange87 said:

Something like Fountain Vu 5 would go great on Hicks Ave, S. Terry Ave. and Chapman Ct. Why are there three vacant streets right next to each other this close to the heart of DT Orlando? Anybody know?

Because no one is going to spend $500k to live in Parramore anytime soon. 

[AmIReal]

15 hours ago, orange87 said:

Why are there three vacant streets right next to each other this close to the heart of DT Orlando? Anybody know?

The City of Orlando started buying up properties in this area in 2000 (Pre-Dyer) and the City now owns most of the property along Terry. There are still a few multi-generational owners mixed in, but most of the lots are vacant so they seem to just be holding on for investment. 

As  @dcluley98 mentioned Terry is slated to become the main drag from CV to eventual on-ramp to I4.

[jack]

14 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

It starts with the fact those streets were on the wrong side of Division (then St., now Ave.) In the days of Jim Crow, the city allowed industrial and commercial to be juxtaposed with residential in Black neighborhoods.

When Mayor Bill came to office, he set out to make a deal with Black leaders. It essentially allowed Parramore to be hands off in exchange for their support of the John Young Parkway extension between Old Winter Garden Rd and I-4.

The agreement was made, the road got built, but essentially nothing happened in the neighborhood. Mayor Glenda, as a Republican, never really had the credibility to revisit the issue and she was quickly preoccupied with light rail and Baldwin Park.

Meanwhile, organizations like Carolina-Florida Properties started buying blocks of Parramore for resale (at a huge profit) for the new Federal Courthouse and other new buildings just west of I-4. They had no interest in the community, they just wanted the bucks.

Then, Buddy came in and announced the success or failure of his administration would be what happened to Parramore.

The only problem was that, where Mayor Bill encouraged Eola Heights and Thornton Park/ Lake Lawsona to rebuild organically by encouraging everyday folks to restore the neighborhoods one block at a time, Buddy had no interests beyond massive corporate redevelopment and Moses-like “big projects”.

So, the land bankers had cleared the land and waited (decades if necessary) for a payout. When the big projects got built, they did nothing to promote community (would you want to live next door to a soccer stadium?)

Thus after 17 years in office, Parramore is still mostly a mess and empty blocks abound. It didn’t have to be this way but , just as he’s shown no interest in the historic core that makes downtown Orlando unique, he has little interest in promoting the community activism that could redevelop Parramore, Callahan and Concord Park.

We are fortunate Mayor Bill, despite his blind spots, welcomed the community to restore Eola. Buddy can’t be bothered with anyone but corporate interests. 
 

It is what it is and won’t soon change. And, as we learned with Cabrini Green (Google it), massive residential projects in blighted areas do little good because there is no sense of community and, even more importantly, no sense of ownership. But, hey, developers make lots of money on them and that’s all that matters, right?

I worked on a task force many years ago and was skeptical Parramore could be a revitalized like Eola. What the old timers told me, the residents were critical in preserving the community. It was a bottom up approach. Plus, the neighborhood had a wonderful housing stock that people wanted to invest in. Parramore does not have that infrastructure of residents pushing change from the bottom up. 

As you mentioned, lots of the property is owned by out of market owners. Not all have the same intentions but generally they are absentee landlords. Combine that with a housing stock that is not well regarded and you can see how you end up with a neighborhood that struggles.

Buddy's approach works well with a well organized neighborhood. What you are advocating for is a top down approach where city hall imposes their will. Traditionally, that leads to slum clearing like back in the 60's. 

The Cabrini Green comparison is not quite accurate because Cabrini was high rise slum whereas the new developments in Parramore were all market rate. But in general, Cabrini taught us that you do not concentrate that many poor people in one area. 

[JFW657]

15 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

It starts with the fact those streets were on the wrong side of Division (then St., now Ave.) In the days of Jim Crow, the city allowed industrial and commercial to be juxtaposed with residential in Black neighborhoods.

When Mayor Bill came to office, he set out to make a deal with Black leaders. It essentially allowed Parramore to be hands off in exchange for their support of the John Young Parkway extension between Old Winter Garden Rd and I-4.

The agreement was made, the road got built, but essentially nothing happened in the neighborhood. Mayor Glenda, as a Republican, never really had the credibility to revisit the issue and she was quickly preoccupied with light rail and Baldwin Park.

Meanwhile, organizations like Carolina-Florida Properties started buying blocks of Parramore for resale (at a huge profit) for the new Federal Courthouse and other new buildings just west of I-4. They had no interest in the community, they just wanted the bucks.

Then, Buddy came in and announced the success or failure of his administration would be what happened to Parramore.

The only problem was that, where Mayor Bill encouraged Eola Heights and Thornton Park/ Lake Lawsona to rebuild organically by encouraging everyday folks to restore the neighborhoods one block at a time, Buddy had no interests beyond massive corporate redevelopment and Moses-like “big projects”.

So, the land bankers had cleared the land and waited (decades if necessary) for a payout. When the big projects got built, they did nothing to promote community (would you want to live next door to a soccer stadium?)

Thus after 17 years in office, Parramore is still mostly a mess and empty blocks abound. It didn’t have to be this way but , just as he’s shown no interest in the historic core that makes downtown Orlando unique, he has little interest in promoting the community activism that could redevelop Parramore, Callahan and Concord Park.

We are fortunate Mayor Bill, despite his blind spots, welcomed the community to restore Eola. Buddy can’t be bothered with anyone but corporate interests. 
 

It is what it is and won’t soon change. And, as we learned with Cabrini Green (Google it), massive residential projects in blighted areas do little good because there is no sense of community and, even more importantly, no sense of ownership. But, hey, developers make lots of money on them and that’s all that matters, right?

Your usual, constant and predictable Buddy Dyer demonization aside, wasn't most of the Parramore property you're talking about already blighted commercial property anyway and, as in the case of the federal courthouse, located right off of I-4 where nobody was going to build quaint little houses anyway? 

Should Buddy The Evil One have just waved his magic scepter and decreed that all of Parramore would hence forth be converted into a "golly-gee that's swell" incarnation of Thornton Park no matter what the market was or what private land owners wanted to do with their legally owned property? 

[uncreativeusername]

2 hours ago, jack said:

Parramore does not have that infrastructure of residents pushing change from the bottom up. 

I realize you're just relaying a history of what happened on this task force, and I don't mean to shoot the messenger. But...

...given the current state of our nation, it's very telling to hear that residents of Paramore were blamed for not pushing change from the bottom up.  Repress a community to its breaking point, and then blame them for giving up, with zero sense of responsibility for the systems we created that caused these issues in the first place.  Yep, sounds about right.

(I apologize for diverging from the intended thread topic - mods, feel free to relocate this recent conversation.)

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by uncreativeusername

[jack]

1 hour ago, uncreativeusername said:

I realize you're just relaying a history of what happened on this task force, and I don't mean to shoot the messenger. But...

...given the current state of our nation, it's very telling to hear that residents of Paramore were blamed for not pushing change from the bottom up.  Repress a community to its breaking point, and then blame them for giving up, with zero sense of responsibility for the systems we created that caused these issues in the first place.  Yep, sounds about right.

(I apologize for diverging from the intended thread topic - mods, feel free to relocate this recent conversation.)

 

No one is blaming them. I recall a very transient community where people did not live in the neighborhood very long. It may be different now that the k-8 school was built. 

[uncreativeusername]

16 minutes ago, jack said:

No one is blaming them. I recall a very transient community where people did not live in the neighborhood very long. It may be different now that the k-8 school was built. 

"Blame" is a spectrum.  Even if it was a very transient community at the time these discussions happened, there is a degree of implicit blame whenever white power-holders do anything to excuse not solving the problems we've created.  

I also don't mean to say it is calculated blame in all cases - it is simply reflective of our very poor understanding of history.  Which...opens another can of worms on blame.

Edited June 18, 2020 by uncreativeusername

[JFW657]

4 minutes ago, jack said:

No one is blaming them. I recall a very transient community where people did not live in the neighborhood very long. It may be different now that the k-8 school was built. 

No, you weren't. 

But OTOH, you weren't lavishing praise on the residents or ignoring the fact that it has always been a highly transient neighborhood with mostly run down, ramshackle houses and a high crime rate which made investing in it an unappealing proposition, so..... by current standards anyway, you're in effect blaming them for something that is our fault. 

Or something like that. 

Odd how those who bemoan the plight of these run down neighborhoods and blame society the most never move there themselves and try to spark the change they so strongly support. 

[Uncommon]

Also odd how those who condemn a certain group of people as universally responsible for the world’s troubles and blame current society the most never try to deviate from their warped, narrow, and tone-deaf mindsets. 

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, Uncommon said:

Also odd how those who condemn a certain group of people as universally responsible for the world’s troubles and blame current society the most never try to deviate from their warped, narrow, and tone-deaf mindsets. 

There is an overabundance of condemnation and blame flying around  everywhere nowadays, and it's coming from all directions, left and right.

Some people think that only their side's condemnation and blame is legitimate and deserves to be heard.

Fortunately we don't have any of those kinds of people or the kind you spoke of around here. 

Right?

.

Edited June 18, 2020 by JFW657

[Uncommon]

My bad. That was unnecessarily combative. I regret it

[AmIReal]

On 6/17/2020 at 3:34 PM, dcluley98 said:

This building is going to be TALL for a townhouse. Up to 3 stories. They have 1.5 to go with a deck that will clear the oak trees.

Appears it could have been even taller. Per ARB comments, "At 5-stories and 56.5 feet in height, the project might seem tall. However, the project site’s O-2/T zoning allows, by-right, a maximum building height of 75-feet."

In the end it doesn't look like it will look like the "proposed concept". Too bad because that was pretty nice. Nonetheless, it seems to be a good use for the property that straddles business/ residential use. 

Interesting note, when they rezoned they were able to remove the Lake Eola Heights Historic District designation and the limitations they would have been confined to (2014). Not unusual, I just thought it of interest.