OPINION: Does COVID-19 Mark the Top of the Orlando Building Boom?

[Dale]

10 hours ago, idroveazamboni said:

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/covid-19-pandemic-prompts-urbanites-to-rethink-grand-bargain-of-dense-city-living-1.4932849?cid=sm%3Atrueanthem%3Actvnews%3Apost&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+New+Content+(Feed)&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook  

 

Very sad. And mark well: this isn’t the result of the virus, but rather the reaction to the virus.

[spenser1058]

As The New York Times discovered, “reaction” to the virus has been just as integral a part of the process of recovery as the medical facts on the ground going all the way back to the Black Plague:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/10/health/coronavirus-plague-pandemic-history.html?referringSource=articleShare

Or, as Billy Joel put it, “we didn’t start the fire”. Welcome to homo sapiens.

https://youtu.be/eFTLKWw542g

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by spenser1058

[codypet]

On 5/9/2020 at 12:04 PM, smileguy said:

If only.   The rental income on that plaza and the plaza where Lucky's was are keeping ORL in the green, but not enough to do a substantial redevelopment. The FAA won't allow any residential/mixed use on the property, and  while parkland would be nice, the airport doesn't like trees for some reason.

Trees attract birds.  Birds and planes don't mix.

[spenser1058]

OC curfew (11pm-5am nightly) ended today at 5am:

https://bungalower.com/2020/05/10/orange-county-lifts-curfew/

From Bungalower 

[Jvest55]

"It may be last call for some downtown bars, nightclubs"

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2020/05/12/it-may-be-last-call-for-some-downtown-bars.html

I'd love to see lots of these crappy, dingy bars close for good and perhaps we can get some classy establishments (that earn more revenue per customer) popping up after the crisis is over. It's time for bars to end their reign on downtown, who effectively have seized control for decades. It's unfortunate because it's not like restaurants are doing any better, but what could be better than a restaurant row in downtown?

Edited May 12, 2020 by Jvest55

[spenser1058]

10 minutes ago, Jvest55 said:

"It may be last call for some downtown bars, nightclubs"

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2020/05/12/it-may-be-last-call-for-some-downtown-bars.html

I'd love to see lots of these crappy, dingy bars close for good and perhaps we can get some classy establishments (that earn more revenue per customer) popping up after the crisis is over. It's time for bars to end their reign on downtown, who effectively have seized control for decades. It's unfortunate because it's not like restaurants are doing any better, but what could be better than a restaurant row in downtown?

It is indeed time to move forward. It’s important to remember that the extended reign of the group comes in part because they were a significant part of Buddy’s base in his 2003 special election. 

Part of the frustration preservationists have had about the lack of  interest by city hall in laying out any sort of vision for the historic district has come about because of those ties.

Apparently, the economy may solve a problem we previously thought would only be solved by our mayor-for-life going to his great reward after challenging the longevity of, ahem, great public servants like Apopka Mayor John Land and Tax Collector Earl K. Wood, both of whom stayed long beyond their sell by dates.

[Jvest55]

Interesting, and I remember you stating that a couple times. You know, one could argue that before all the residential buildings got put up (and continue to be built) that the bars made sense. People would drive INTO downtown to party, mostly college kids. Maybe people with $500 in their bank account. Now, people live in downtown, and they are paying a lot of money to live in downtown. Modera residents pay $3k. Hell, even people in 420 (3bedroom) pay that much. Does Buddy think somebody who spends $3k/mo goes to a crappy bar for underage drinkers? 

Time to move on! I agree. It's time for the establishments in downtown to REFLECT the people who live here. 

I would put money behind this movement if there was an organization pushing this agenda. 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Jvest55

[spenser1058]

3 minutes ago, Jvest55 said:

Interesting, and I remember you stating that a couple times. You know, one could argue that before all the residential buildings got put up (and continue to be built) that the bars made sense. People would drive INTO downtown to party, mostly college kids. Maybe people with $500 in their bank account. Now, people live in downtown, and they are paying a lot of money to live in downtown. Modera residents pay $3k. Hell, even people in 420 (3bedroom) pay that much. Does Buddy think somebody who spends $3k/mo goes to a crappy bar for underage drinkers? 

Time to move on! I agree. It's time for the establishments in downtown to REFLECT the people who live here. 

I would put money behind this movement if there was an organization pushing this agenda. 

I give the bar owners credit for doing something Bob Snow failed to do. They made the transition to hyperlocal and a younger market as Disney and Universal sought to lure the after-dark market to the attractions area and the closing of NTC Orlando also ended those ties with CSS (Bob had encouraged that from the beginning just as he had in Pensacola).

As you noted, however, today’s downtown is very different from what it was then. A spot-on observation - kudos!

[Jvest55]

This is not something we wanted to do and we did not take making this decision lightly. But in an effort to keep our community safe, we've decided to host a virtual Fireworks at the Fountain on News 6 WKMG / ClickOrlando, instead of our regular event at Lake Eola Park on July 4th. Public safety was our chief concern in making this difficult decision - this event annually brings more than 100,000 residents to Downtown Orlando. And while we are disappointed, we feel this is the right and responsible thing to do. We will still celebrate our nation as a community, just not in person.

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Jvest55

[jgardnerucf]

2 hours ago, Jvest55 said:

but what could be better than a restaurant row in downtown?

We had that. Chains galore.

[spenser1058]

9 minutes ago, jgardnerucf said:

We had that. Chains galore.

Bring back Morrison’s!

[popsiclebrandon]

5 hours ago, Jvest55 said:

"It may be last call for some downtown bars, nightclubs"

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2020/05/12/it-may-be-last-call-for-some-downtown-bars.html

I'd love to see lots of these crappy, dingy bars close for good and perhaps we can get some classy establishments (that earn more revenue per customer) popping up after the crisis is over. It's time for bars to end their reign on downtown, who effectively have seized control for decades. It's unfortunate because it's not like restaurants are doing any better, but what could be better than a restaurant row in downtown?

Can't read the article and while I'm personally not a fan of most of the places downtown I'd rather the city be utilized than empty at night like Tampa.  More and better restaurants would be great but I don't see that happening. Retrofitting these spaces to be vented could be crazy expensive with the existing code. I suppose if a lot of bars close now and rents drop we might see a slightly better mix of restaurants to bars but probably more likely another bar ends up replacing it.

[spenser1058]

12 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Can't read the article and while I'm personally not a fan of most of the places downtown I'd rather the city be utilized than empty at night like Tampa.  More and better restaurants would be great but I don't see that happening. Retrofitting these spaces to be vented could be crazy expensive with the existing code. I suppose if a lot of bars close now and rents drop we might see a slightly better mix of restaurants to bars but probably more likely another bar ends up replacing it.

Haven’t you heard? Tampa can not possibly be emptier at night than Orlando (and neither can Jacksonville for that matter) because the buildings in Tampa and Jax are taller. Nothing can possibly matter more in a downtown than tall buildings. Urban Planet has said it and it must be so!

[dcluley98]

I have been back to Tampa and St. Pete recently and neither are empty at night. A whole lot of activity in both. And getting better in Tampa if the SPP project starts going. Riverwalk in Tampa and waterfront Straub Park  in St. Pete are hubs of activity. St. Pete in particular is quite appealing to me as an adult. A lot of options for everything.  

[spenser1058]

Just now, dcluley98 said:

I have been back to Tampa and St. Pete recently and neither are empty at night. A whole lot of activity in both. And getting better in Tampa if the SPP project starts going. Riverwalk in Tampa and waterfront Straub Park  in St. Pete are hubs of activity. St. Pete in particular is quite appealing to me as an adult. A lot of options for everything.  

It’s great they’re doing well but the point stands: for years Tampa had taller buildings and was deader than doornails and St.Pete blossomed when it only had one squatty skyscraper downtown.

Bottom line: despite what many here insist, building height has zero relationship to the success of the center city (see also D.C. old Paris, Savannah, Charleston, the list goes on).

[dcluley98]

Oh, I agree about that. Don't need tall to be vibrant. Need good design with human scale and amenities and activity. Jax is a much better comparison for that right now. 

I would rather live in Orlando or St. Pete or Savannah than Jax or Miami. (and maybe Winter Haven). 

[spenser1058]

6 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Oh, I agree about that. Don't need tall to be vibrant. Need good design with human scale and amenities and activity. Jax is a much better comparison for that right now. 

I would rather live in Orlando or St. Pete or Savannah than Jax or Miami. (and maybe Winter Haven). 

Winter Haven - the new center of Orlampa!

Although, if I were going to live in Polk, it would be kinda cool to live by Florida Southern. College towns are often fun. And, thankfully, Lakeland has developed quite a blue streak lately.

[HankStrong]

On 5/9/2020 at 1:36 PM, jgardnerucf said:

No one will miss ye ol Soup n Salad Exchange, the carpets were stank and no proteins on the salad bar. Dumb! Good riddance!

I have to agree with this.  It was horrible.

[spenser1058]

17 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

I have to agree with this.  It was horrible.

Oh my.

[Uncommon]

9 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

Oh, I agree about that. Don't need tall to be vibrant. Need good design with human scale and amenities and activity. Jax is a much better comparison for that right now. 

I would rather live in Orlando or St. Pete or Savannah than Jax or Miami. (and maybe Winter Haven). 

Would you rather live in Tampa or Orlando? I’ve been very impressed with Tampa lately. Orlando has always had a leg up because of its vibrant downtown, but I think that has now done a complete 180. 

[spenser1058]

3 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Would you rather live in Tampa or Orlando? I’ve been very impressed with Tampa lately. Orlando has always had a leg up because of its vibrant downtown, but I think that has now done a complete 180. 

I don’t disagree because, under the late reign of our mayor-for-life, we no longer have the dynamism or vibrancy of what comes next other than the latest sterile box. We can (and have) done better - it’s the same thing we ran into after Mayors Carl, Bill and Glenda had stayed too long but with Buddy we think this stall should go on forever for some reason.

[spenser1058]

I received a private note asking how I thought just one person (like a mayor) can have such influence over a city.

As it happened, a tweet popped up in my feed noting an interview with former UCF AD Keith Tribble.

If you’ve followed UCF Athletics at all, you’ll know the difference between Keith’s stint at the helm and that of his eventual successor, Danny White, is like (K)night and day.

So, yes, one person with a vision can make all the difference.

https://twitter.com/sonsofucf/status/1260312004541263875?s=21

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by spenser1058

[popsiclebrandon]

Trade the Devos family for Vinik and Tampa would never catch up. Vinik would have already built the Magic entertainment complex thing if he was running things here. Tampa is very likely to catch and pass us in the next few years because they have a plan and a huge advantage of the water.

[spenser1058]

36 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Trade the Devos family for Vinik and Tampa would never catch up. Vinik would have already built the Magic entertainment complex thing if he was running things here. Tampa is very likely to catch and pass us in the next few years because they have a plan and a huge advantage of the water.

Buddy is totally co-opted by the DeVoses so that ain’t happening until our mayor-for-life goes to his great reward decades from now.

As to not having a plan, that also falls on City Hall. “What, Me Worry?” Buddy’s only plan is continuous re-election (did I mention Tampa has term limits?*)

As to being on the water, it has pluses and minuses. Old Tampa Bay often stinks to high heaven.

* Just to be clear: I think term limits are important for those in the executive branch in order to keep adding fresh visions coming and to avoid the burnout we’ve seen with every Orlando mayor I recall (Carl became mayor when I was 7 - I don’t remember any before that).

In legislators, their task is continuity so I don’t favor term limits for them. In the absence of wizened elder statespeople in the Senate or House, the lobbyists take over as they’ve done in Tallahassee.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by spenser1058

[jack]

43 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Trade the Devos family for Vinik and Tampa would never catch up. Vinik would have already built the Magic entertainment complex thing if he was running things here. Tampa is very likely to catch and pass us in the next few years because they have a plan and a huge advantage of the water.

Facts!

2 hours ago, Uncommon said:

Would you rather live in Tampa or Orlando? I’ve been very impressed with Tampa lately. Orlando has always had a leg up because of its vibrant downtown, but I think that has now done a complete 180. 

There are some really nice areas in Tampa and overall, the city has made great strides over the past 10 years. 

19 hours ago, Jvest55 said:

"It may be last call for some downtown bars, nightclubs"

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2020/05/12/it-may-be-last-call-for-some-downtown-bars.html

I'd love to see lots of these crappy, dingy bars close for good and perhaps we can get some classy establishments (that earn more revenue per customer) popping up after the crisis is over. It's time for bars to end their reign on downtown, who effectively have seized control for decades. It's unfortunate because it's not like restaurants are doing any better, but what could be better than a restaurant row in downtown?

Yeah but downtown should be for all. Dive bars included. If they don't make it now, some version of them will be back sooner or later.