May / June Charlotte protests

[kermit]

1 hour ago, nicholas said:

Is this still about police brutality, or...what exactly are we even protesting at this point?  None of us have control of the circumstances that we were born into, but we ALL have opportunities to succeed if we are willing to work for it.  Some have a bumpier road and have to work harder than others, and that is just a fact.  Why have Asian Americans, who initially faced widespread discrimination (though admittedly not to the level that blacks used to face) when they came to America to work unskilled jobs, been able to establish themselves as the most educated and highest-earning racial group in America?

Allowing your protests to be overrun by rioters and looters is a surefire way to make sure that the "privileged" do not listen to you.  Also, protesters need to show Americans that black lives truly matter, and not just when a white person is involved.  2016 FBI figures show that roughly 8.5% of black homicides were by whites, whereas roughly 90% were by blacks, yet I can't think of a single protest following the killing of black person by another black person.  It only happens when a white person is involved.

Your whataboutism rings hollow. Thanks to the second amendment we have no way to control violence between individuals. What we can control is the the police force and the political apparatus around it which we pay for. They all work for us.

I am not willing to pay for a police force that kills people for any reason (they swear an oath to protect us). We have learned over the years that there is zero accountability for this brutality. The public is not stupid, when it becomes clear that police brutality will continually be excused (and voting rights are taken away from the people most at risk of this brutality) then there is not other option but protest. These protests are about stopping the police from assaulting and killing people.   Are you comfortable with your tax dollars being used to pay for this brutality? I am not.

How do we fix this problem in any way other than protest? I honestly don't care if some windows get broken in the process, people's lives are much more important. We can't twiddle our thumbs while more people get killed.

Show me a better way!

[KJHburg]

6 minutes ago, kermit said:

We can't twiddle our thumbs while more people get killed.

Show me a better way!

what about the 130 people murdered in Charlotte last year?  where were the protests about that senseless killing.  Every life matters. Black lives, White lives, Hispanic lives, Asian lives. 

National Guard has been called up in both Charlotte and Raleigh and I say thank God.  Riotous behavior can not be tolerated. Peaceful protests are great but lawlessness is not. 

[kermit]

17 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

what about the 130 people murdered in Charlotte last year?  where were the protests about that senseless killing.  Every life matters. Black lives, White lives, Hispanic lives, Asian lives. 

National Guard has been called up in both Charlotte and Raleigh and I say thank God.  Riotous behavior can not be tolerated. Peaceful protests are great but lawlessness is not. 

As I said before, none of us can control what individual citizens do. All violence is bad, so lets start by eliminating the violence that we can control.

As taxpayers we control what the police do. Are you OK with the police killing people? If not then what are you doing to stop this brutality? You do pay their salary after all.

Show me a better way!

Edited May 31, 2020 by kermit

[KJHburg]

14 minutes ago, kermit said:

As I said before, none of us can control what individual citizens do. All violence is bad, so lets start by eliminating the violence that we can control.

As taxpayers we control what the police do. Are you OK with the police killing people? If not then what are you doing to stop this brutality? You do pay their salary after all.

Show me a better way!

the officer has been arrested in Minneapolis.   He will be and others be held accountable.  A black Federal officer has been killed in Oakland CA this weekend not to mention others that have been killed across the country.  Paying back evil for more evil is not right either.  

[TCLT]

10 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

what about the 130 people murdered in Charlotte last year?  where were the protests about that senseless killing.

This is amazing. Black people are Schrodinger's protesters. They simultaneously protest too much and not enough.

What exactly do you want people to protest in relation to the 130 murders from last year? What do you expect to see? Murders are bad, there's no one to convince about that. Plus there are vigils, community meetings, activist meetings, council meetings, etc. held in response to murders all the time. One of the biggest impediments to reducing crime in Charlotte (and other cities) is the absence of trust between the community and the police. And guess what, these protests are happening because of the actions of law enforcement that prevent that trust from forming. So in a way these protests are for all murders that happen anywhere. Congrats you have your all lives matter protest.

And come on, property damage is gonna be largely covered by insurance and restored very quickly. A man's life can't be. This whole conversation, people's greater outrage over a riot than a murder by the police, is the continuation of white Americans' prioritization of order over justice. Instead of admonishing the protesters for not controlling the few who vandalize, why not admonish the police for not controlling the few that abuse their power. That's what this is all about. Riots won't happen if police are held accountable.

[kermit]

4 hours ago, KJHburg said:

the officer has been arrested in Minneapolis.   He will be and others be held accountable. 

We don't know that yet. The very strange autopsy (which speculated on a toxicology screen which had not yet been completed) suggests that a questionable leagal process may follow.

Does Keith Lamont Scott’s family and the members of his community feel like the CMPD was held accountable for his killing? This is not a legal question, its a moral one.

Show me how the problem of brutality can be fixed other than protest? The system has shown us that police will continue to kill and brutalize the same people they are sworn to protect without changes. How do we make these changes without protest?

Edited June 1, 2020 by kermit

[KJHburg]

from a business owner in downtown Raleigh

 

[kermit]

^ I know you to be a thoughtful and religious person, I would be very surprised if you believed that property was more important than people’s lives. (These protests ARE about people’s lives)

How do we change the current system that uses our tax dollars to kill and brutalize the people they are sworn to protect. I would love to hear about a way to do that other than protest.

Show me a better way!

Edited May 31, 2020 by kermit

[kermit]

48 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

from a business owner in downtown Raleigh

 

 

 

[CLT2014]

2 hours ago, TCLT said:

Blacks are disproportionately arrested for, and convicted of, crime (especially violent crime). FTFY.

If you target a specific group for arrest and incarceration the statistics are going to show that they're disproportionately arrested and incarcerated. Those statistics don't really tell us anything about actual crime rates. For example actual rates of drug use and drug dealing are largely the same across all demographics, but again blacks are disproportionately arrested and incarcerated for it.

This is anecdotal, but my niece who is affluent and white got into the wrong crowd her senior year of high school and started dealing drugs, including cocaine and ecstasy, in her late teens / early 20's.  When caught in a sting, the two men purchasing the drugs from her ended up with public defenders and in jail for 6 months. My niece, as the seller, had lawyers funded by my brother that worked out a deal with the judge that resulted in her doing community service and going to a $19,000 luxury rehab facility in Florida, again paid for by my brother.

I'm glad my niece has healed, but she absolutely got advantages that other people, including the men she sold to, did not have. It has never sat well with me. I don't think the "statistics" tell us accurate information because I agree, people are arrested and sentenced disproportionately. 

Edited May 31, 2020 by CLT2014

[rancenc]

Article from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette which is reflective of comments coming from various other locations around the country of groups and/or participates in local civil disturbances that are not "indigenous" to those communities.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/nation/2020/05/30/George-Floyd-protests-riots-violence-outsiders-neo-Nazis-white-supremacists-Antifa-cartels-Trump/stories/202005300081

[kermit]

The protest around 8pm was peaceful and orderly. I would guess it was about 400 people. I walked with them from First Ward park to Bearden.

Fireworks down by Trinity (a couple blocks from the march) were pretty unhelpful as were the loud motorcycle dudes.

Marchers were followed / steered by about a dozen bike cops in front, and another dozen in the rear. Also in the police convoy was two CATS buses (driven by CFD) full of geared up riot cops. There were a large number of unmarked cars scattered through town that appeared to all be CMPD and about 15 motorcycle cops, but they were not adjacent to the march. The riot cops did get off the buses at BB&T field and waited for the marchers. Most of the march past without giving them much notice. A smaller group knelt in front of them and held signs, a couple minutes later the police got back on the buses while the remaining marchers applauded (3rd photo) -- I am not suggesting causality.

No sign of the national guard.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by kermit

[Popsickle]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

^ I know you to be a thoughtful and religious person, I would be very surprised if you believed that property was more important than people’s lives. (These protests ARE about people’s lives)

How do we change the current system that uses our tax dollars to kill and brutalize the people they are sworn to protect. I would love to hear about a way to do that other than protest.

Show me a better way!

I don’t believe he is putting property above lives, the issue is the reaction to the death that is the issue.  Peaceful protest are great, and should be used (although they should be wearing mask, right?). However, Many people dismiss the protest once they become destructive, as they take away from the people marching peacefully. 
 

I honestly don’t know a better way, but two wrongs will not make a right. 

[kermit]

53 minutes ago, Popsickle said:

I don’t believe he is putting property above lives, the issue is the reaction to the death that is the issue.  Peaceful protest are great, and should be used (although they should be wearing mask, right?). However, Many people dismiss the protest once they become destructive, as they take away from the people marching peacefully. 
 

I honestly don’t know a better way, but two wrongs will not make a right. 

I agree, two wrongs don't make anything kosher. However, violence certainly does make people take notice of a cause ("if it bleeds it leads"). Unfortunately people who are not personally involved in a movement tend to tune out after a couple of days, protestors need to find a way to keep the issue in everyone's view. The lesson of Colin Kaepernick was clearly that the middle and upper class did not give a crap about police brutality -- this demonstrated indifference to Kaepernick's (and Eric Reid's) peaceful protest is the thing that makes violence necessary. Without painful protest the police will continue to operate without accountability. 

Strangely enough, I find the property damage / violence approach to be a very right-wing sort of strategy. If governments are forced to spend a fortune on policing, the public may eventually figure out that it is much cheaper to simply address the inequality and fix the root cause.

I really don't like any of this,  I was raised a Quaker. But honestly, I don't see a better alternative to end brutality at this point.

EDIT: I am also super puzzled about a logical inconsistency (not that those matter anymore) related to these protests. All the second amendment "enthusiasts"  have accepted the massive amount of collateral violence that comes with a country that owns 1.2 guns per person. These guns lead to 21,000+ suicides and 500+ accidental deaths per year. Gun nuts thing these fatalities are fine since they are the unavoidable cost of them feeling "safer." Given our acceptance of this carnage, why is society so upset about the property damage associated with these protests against brutality? The protestors are only trying to feel safer, why is this collateral damage not also shrugged off? Its far less significant than unintentional gun violence.

Edited June 1, 2020 by kermit

[nicholas]

7 hours ago, TCLT said:

Blacks are disproportionately arrested for, and convicted of, crime (especially violent crime). FTFY.

If you target a specific group for arrest and incarceration the statistics are going to show that they're disproportionately arrested and incarcerated. Those statistics don't really tell us anything about actual crime rates. For example actual rates of drug use and drug dealing are largely the same across all demographics, but again blacks are disproportionately arrested and incarcerated for it.

Honestly I see what you're saying, and I agree that blacks almost always face much stiffer consequences than whites for the same crimes.  Vox indicates that there is a major overpolicing of fairly mundane crimes in black neighborhoods, but an extreme underpolicing of actual violent crimes.  However, the FBI stats that I linked in a previous post indicate that the sheer number of murders (which is definitely violent crime) committed by blacks and whites are numerically almost equal, despite blacks only accounting for about 13% of the population and whites about 70%.  Why is there so much violence?  I really think that until the overall violence drops to a level that would be reasonably indicative of 13% of the population, there will continue to be extreme tension and animosity from police towards blacks. 

Quote

Crime is mostly based on proximity and opportunity. Since blacks are still largely segregated it isn't surprising that most crime against black people is committed by other black people. Keep in mind too that just because you "can't think of a single protest" doesn't mean they don't exist, and that was from only a minute of research. What an obnoxiously arrogant and ignorant thing to say. And there's also a significant difference between normal crime and institutionalized discrimination, harassment, and murder by members of law enforcement who have an enormous amount of power over the people and communities they police.

And comparing other ethnic groups to black people in America shows a huge lack of understanding of the absolutely horrendous history (and present) this country has with its treatment of blacks.

You're right, I didn't word my last post very well.  However, the protests against black on black violence don't garner anywhere close to the support and media coverage that the white/police on black protests do, and that was the point I was trying to make.  Like I have never even heard of a dedicated protest against black on black violence in Charlotte; has there ever been one?  (Legitimate question).

If you go back far enough in history, you can find examples of all sorts of discrimination against all sorts of groups of people.  I am not ignoring the fact that blacks have been blatantly mistreated for a very long time, but I am also not narrow minded enough to think that there isn't a way out.  (Again, Asians suffered discrimination in America for about a century, but are now the most well-educated and highest-earning demographic in America.)  To be blunt, and this builds on a previous point in this post, I really doubt that even perfect police reform will really make a huge difference in the everyday lives of most black people, although police reform is something that seriously does need to be addressed.  Statistically, blacks are leading in all the wrong categories for success (dropout rates/education levels, crime, single parenthood, etc) but with the right leadership and support they can turn everything around.

 

Also (this isn't directed at anyone in particular, just a general observation) if you're going to riot and cause chaos in the name of "justice", why are you setting fire to drug stores in Raleigh, looting Walmarts in Fayetteville, smashing windows of businesses in downtowns everywhere, etc?  It's like they're just committing random crime for the sake of committing crime, with no purpose or goal in mind.  If you really want to make a point, why are you not just sticking to police stations and government buildings????  I would think that damaging those kinds of structures would send a much clearer message than haphazardly targeting random stores. 

Edited June 1, 2020 by nicholas

[Miesian Corners]

59 minutes ago, nicholas said:

Also (this isn't directed at anyone in particular, just a general observation) if you're going to riot and cause the name of "justice", why are you setting fire to drug stores in Raleigh, looting Walmarts in Fayetteville, smashing windows of businesses in downtowns everywhere, etc?  It's like they're just committing random crime for the sake of committing crime, with no purpose or goal in mind.  If you really want to make a point, why are you not just sticking to police stations and government buildings????  I would think that damaging those kinds of structures would send a much clearer message than haphazardly targeting random stores. 

So much of what you wrote was offensive, but I’ll just concentrate on this one paragraph. So just who is it directed to?  You do realize the word “looter” isn’t a synonym for “protester”, right? 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Miesian Corners
Edit

[KJHburg]

[TCLT]

I think a lot of people need to read A Letter from a Birmingham Jail. The entire letter is very important, but since we're throwing around Dr. King quotes now, let me highlight a very telling excerpt of that letter (emphases mine):

Quote

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

 

[Miesian Corners]

9 hours ago, KJHburg said:

This one probably speaks more about the reality of racism in America: 

 

[js4life]

2 Timothy chapter 3 verses 1-5 & Daniel chapter 2 verses 44 & 45

[nicholas]

10 hours ago, Miesian Corners said:

So much of what you wrote was offensive, but I’ll just concentrate on this one paragraph. So just who is it directed to?  You do realize the word “looter” isn’t a synonym for “protester”, right? 

Was it truly offensive, or more something that was true but you did not want to hear because it challenges your point of view?  Prove me wrong if I'm wrong, facts are facts, but if any change is actually going to happen as a result of all of this, there has to be a discussion that isn't completely overwhelmed with subjective personal feelings.

Obviously I know the difference between a protestor and a rioter/looter.  If you read my post, it was a general observation directed at rioters/looters.  The protestors are doing nothing wrong, but the rioters are hijacking the protests with seemingly no plan or objective other than to cause general chaos.

------

@kermit I'm tired of arguing with you, so I will simply respond to "show me a better way":

From what I see and hear in everyday life, I think are three key issues that relate to the black community: police relations, economic influence, and structure.  Some of these are less impactful in daily life but more media visible, whereas others are more impactful in daily life but less media visible.

The first (police relations) is probably the most media-visible issue.  YES, POLICE REFORM NEEDS TO HAPPEN as I have stated in previous posts (I just want to make sure no one thinks I'm against this for some reason).  As far as what "reform" entails, I really do not know.  It does not make sense to me that these police killings generally occur from municipal police officers, not state troopers, while at the same time many of the police departments involved (especially in larger cities) have black police chiefs - including the Minneapolis police department (Medaria Arradondo).  Due to this, I think the reform needs to start mainly from a city level.  However, the vast majority of black citizens out there are just living peaceful lives, and usually aren't massively affected by the local police department's policies, but the ones who do face police encounters will benefit.

The second issue (economic influence) has two sub-factors.  The first sub-factor is direct influence.  There are not a ton of black lawyers, doctors, etc out there.  Perhaps these fields simply do not interest them in general (sort of like how you don't see a lot of women in construction).  The second sub-factor is what generally influences them.  Drive around in predominantly poor and minority areas such as N Tryon St, Sugar Creek Rd, Central Avenue east of Plaza Midwood, etc; practically on every corner there are "buy here pay here" stealerships, rent to own stores, pawn shops, payday loans, and the like.  All of these businesses are an insult to actual ethical businesses, and absolutely feed off of minorities.  Whatever s#!t they peddle, whether it be cars, tools, instruments, electronics, jewelry, cash advances, etc is insultingly overpriced to begin with and carries absurd interest rates (APR is usually equivalent to hundreds of %).  It is literally nothing more than legalized loan sharking.  It has to stop.  You can have the most wonderful police relations in world history, but as long as black neighborhoods are inundated with loan sharks intent on keeping them poor, it is going to be exceedingly difficult for them to get ahead economically.

The third issue is structure.  In 2015 (latest reputable information I can find), over 77% of non-immigrant blacks were born to unmarried mothers.  I will grant that just because a woman is not married does not mean she doesn't have stable, loyal partner to raise her kid(s) with.  However, it is difficult to dispute the effect that unmarried births have on continuing the cycle of poverty.  It is a fact that blacks have the highest rates of unmarried women giving birth as well as poverty, and the other demographics with high rates (Native Americans and Hispanics) are also disproportionately impoverished.  Asians, who I mentioned in a previous post are the most well-educated and highest-earning demographic, unsurprisingly have the lowest number of unmarried births.  I imagine that those of you who have children are well aware of the effort needed to raise children, and the time needed for that makes it much more difficult for a parent to continue their education, work a full time job, and the like if they are the only one raising their child/children.

There are other issues that need to be addressed, but I think these are the three biggest in terms of visibility and impact.  Fixing one while ignoring the others makes us feel good, but realistically we'll likely be in the same scenario again if the other two are not also fixed.  This is my better way, what is yours?

Edited June 1, 2020 by nicholas

[TCLT]

8 minutes ago, nicholas said:

However, the vast majority of black citizens out there ... aren't massively affected by the local police department's policies

This simply isn't true. Nearly all of the other ills you discuss stem to some degree from the criminal justice system's racist and disproportionate effect on the black community. Black men have a 1 in 3 chance of being imprisoned during their lives. Note also that the vast majority of people in prison are there on drug charges and blacks are many many times more likely than whites to be incarcerated despite nearly identical drug crime rates. And yet you wonder why so many blacks are born to unmarried mothers or raised in single parent households. There's an even higher chance of being arrested on drug charges and pleading out, which might avoid jail time but still results in a felony on their records. If you have a criminal record you can legally be denied employment, housing, and voting rights. And yet you wonder why blacks are disproportionately afflicted by poverty and all of the hardships that result from it. Most incredibly of all, you blame blacks' lack of interest as the reason they aren't more represented in the high paying and high esteem career fields rather than the systemic racism that denies them the education, support, and opportunity necessary to pursue those careers.

All of your comments on this topic drip with privilege, ignorance, and implicit bias. You are so convinced you have all the facts that you can't possibly imagine your interpretation of things might be skewed. You should take a step back, find some empathy, and try to understand the people and situations you so flippantly and callously criticize.

[SouthEndCLT811]

27 minutes ago, nicholas said:

The second issue (economic influence) has two sub-factors.  The first sub-factor is direct influence.  There are not a ton of black lawyers, doctors, etc out there.  Perhaps these fields simply do not interest them in general (sort of like how you don't see a lot of women in construction).  The second sub-factor is what generally influences them.  Drive around in predominantly poor and minority areas such as N Tryon St, Sugar Creek Rd, Central Avenue east of Plaza Midwood, etc; practically on every corner there are "buy here pay here" stealerships, rent to own stores, pawn shops, payday loans, and the like.  All of these businesses are an insult to actual ethical businesses, and absolutely feed off of minorities.  Whatever s#!t they peddle, whether it be cars, tools, instruments, electronics, jewelry, cash advances, etc is insultingly overpriced to begin with and carries absurd interest rates (APR is usually equivalent to hundreds of %).  It is literally nothing more than legalized loan sharking.  It has to stop.  You can have the most wonderful police relations in world history, but as long as black neighborhoods are inundated with loan sharks intent on keeping them poor, it is going to be exceedingly difficult for them to get ahead economically.

There are other issues that need to be addressed, but I think these are the three biggest in terms of visibility and impact.  Fixing one while ignoring the others makes us feel good, but realistically we'll likely be in the same scenario again if the other two are not also fixed.  This is my better way, what is yours?

Care more about the looting of 25 billionaires in the past two months versus what you're seeing on the news today.  The pandemic is moving more people into poverty while making the rich infinitely more wealthy.  If only we had an Elizabeth Warren style plan of after your first $50M pay $0.02 extra per dollar that supposedly could fund all schools, healthcare etc etc...  Or hell just get back to a rate that existed before Reagan.  Then areas of our city you described may get the funding they truly deserve to educate versus budget cut after budget cut.

One president and one idea can't alleviate centuries of economic disparity that minorities have faced but we need to start somewhere and stop funding corporations and start funding our people.

[Hushpuppy321]

28 minutes ago, TCLT said:

This simply isn't true. Nearly all of the other ills you discuss stem to some degree from the criminal justice system's racist and disproportionate effect on the black community. Black men have a 1 in 3 chance of being imprisoned during their lives. Note also that the vast majority of people in prison are there on drug charges and blacks are many many times more likely than whites to be incarcerated despite nearly identical drug crime rates. And yet you wonder why so many blacks are born to unmarried mothers or raised in single parent households. There's an even higher chance of being arrested on drug charges and pleading out, which might avoid jail time but still results in a felony on their records. If you have a criminal record you can legally be denied employment, housing, and voting rights. And yet you wonder why blacks are disproportionately afflicted by poverty and all of the hardships that result from it. Most incredibly of all, you blame blacks' lack of interest as the reason they aren't more represented in the high paying and high esteem career fields rather than the systemic racism that denies them the education, support, and opportunity necessary to pursue those careers.

All of your comments on this topic drip with privilege, ignorance, and implicit bias. You are so convinced you have all the facts that you can't possibly imagine your interpretation of things might be skewed. You should take a step back, find some empathy, and try to understand the people and situations you so flippantly and callously criticize.

Amen

[rancenc]

Interesting read concerning the opinion paper written by the late Senator Patrick Moynihan in 1964 when he was serving the Johnson administration.

https://www.educationnext.org/moynihan-and-the-single-parent-family/