May / June Charlotte protests

[kermit]

Wow! Less than 17,000 people live in Waxhaw.

 

The story from the O:

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article243266066.html

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by kermit

[tozmervo]

Yeah, these events are happening in pretty much all the towns around Charlotte. Davidson had one Tuesday, Cornelius last night. 

https://www.corneliustoday.com/peaceful-march-draws-400-to-protest-george-floyds-death/

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by tozmervo

[videtur quam contuor]

Answer to the question I posed in my post on the previous page:

Courtroom quote from Louis Lingg, one of the eight Haymarket Affair condemned men, Chicago, 1886:

"In this hope do I say to you, I despise you, I despise your order, your laws, your force propped authority. Hang me for it."*

Louis Lingg committed suicide in his jail cell before his hanging by detonating a blasting cap in his mouth. As he died he wrote on his cell wall with his own blood "Hoch die anarchie"-(Harrah for anarchy.)

If you think this time, or 1968, of 1919 or any other time was something serious, read about the Haymarket Affair. It became the basis of a movement worldwide. (I keep my dime)

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by tarhoosier

[kermit]

15 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

Answer to the question I posed in my post on the previous page:

Courtroom quote from Louis Lingg, one of the eight Haymarket Affair condemned men, Chicago, 1886:

"In this hope do I say to you, I despise you, I despise your order, your laws, your force propped authority. Hang me for it."*

Louis Lingg committed suicide in his jail cell before his hanging by detonating a blasting cap in his mouth. As he died he wrote on his cell wall with his own blood "Hoch die anarchie"-(Harrah for anarchy.)

If you think this time, or 1968, of 1919 or any other time was something serious, read about the Haymarket Affair. It became the basis of a movement worldwide. (I keep my dime)

 

 

 

One of the (many) other players in the Haymarket Affair, August Spies, was the subject of a pretty solid Drunk History segment. It reminded me how consistently the Chicago PD have been villains throughout their existence.

Usually the drunkenness of the storytellers of the social change histories do a great job of conveying the rage and desperation of the players. Unfortunately Kyle Kinane gets awfully sloppy here.  (thank you for coming to my Ted Talk)

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by kermit

[gman430]

Just another reason to vote for Trump in November. The liberals have gone absolutely bananas: https://www.yahoo.com/news/minneapolis-council-majority-backs-disbanding-233744273.html?bcmt=1 I can’t believe anybody with a half a brain actually supports this nonsense. Personally, I hope the city council members houses get looted and burned down first. It would send a very nice statement as to why this is a very bad and stupid idea.

Edited June 8, 2020 by gman430

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, gman430 said:

Just another reason to vote for Trump in November. The liberals have gone absolutely bananas: https://www.yahoo.com/news/minneapolis-council-majority-backs-disbanding-233744273.html?bcmt=1 I can’t believe anybody with a half a brain actually supports this nonsense. Personally, I hope the city council members houses get looted and burned down first. It would send a very nice statement as to why this is a very bad and stupid idea.

don't be so dramatic snowflake

Joe Biden could walk out on N. Walnut Street and kill a guy, and I'd vote for him over trump. 

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/

Camden was disbanded and restructured leading to the lowest murder rate in a generation.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Guest

[kermit]

27 minutes ago, gman430 said:

Just another reason to vote for Trump in November. The liberals have gone absolutely bananas: https://www.yahoo.com/news/minneapolis-council-majority-backs-disbanding-233744273.html?bcmt=1 I can’t believe anybody with a half a brain actually supports this nonsense. Personally, I hope the city council members houses get looted and burned down first. It would send a very nice statement as to why this is a very bad and stupid idea.

This process worked pretty well in Camden New Jersey in 2013. You ever been to Camden?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camden-new-jersey-reformed-its-police-department

Quote

He led the city’s high-profile pivot to community policing from 2013 until last year and oversaw what turned out to be a steep decline in crime. Homicides in Camden reached 67 in 2012; the figure for 2019 was 25.

 

[Guest]

Imagine if you just cut this budget in half, and invested its in the communities that are policed because they are deemed "problematic." Spend more on infrastructure, education, mentorship, healthcare. Make its so people don't reach that point where they have to do *WHATEVER IT TAKES* to get by. Its really not that hard of a concept.  

[gman430]

I guess we just call Batman or Ninja Turtles once the banks start getting robbed.  

Dr. Peter Venkman : This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.

Mayor : What do you mean, "biblical"?

Dr. Raymond Stantz : What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of God type stuff.

Dr. Peter Venkman : Exactly.

Dr. Raymond Stantz : Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!

Dr. Egon Spengler : Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...

Winston Zeddemore : The dead rising from the grave!

Dr. Peter Venkman : Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Mayor : All right, all right! I get the point!

Edited June 8, 2020 by gman430

[Skyybutter]

Im so over EVERY tweet, comment, or post about the protest starting with "Peaceful protest" "no clashes with police" ,or something similar.

   I'm sorry, but why is so important that everything surrounding the movement feel like a tea date, or God forbid..YOGA...( which a group in Wilmington actually did) yeah, cause doing yoga to protest murders of black men by police , 400yrs of slavery, and a justice system that has a mob like mentally...yoga is going to make a statement..

  Whatever makes people feel better I suppose. 

  Interesting to note is that white people have decided when violence is appropriate throughout American history. The Revolutionary war.. the war of 1812.

Spanish-American war, Civil  war, WW1, WW2, Korean, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraq, Afghanistan...etc

   It's not white people's place to set the narrative for whats going on  right now.  Doing so is just another way to use white privelage to benefit white people.

 I'm just over the addiction to controlling things we seem to have. Let the smoke rise and the glass break. WHATEVER it takes for this issue to be resolved.

  We can't afford not to get it right this time.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Skyybutter

[joenc]

5 hours ago, Skyybutter said:

Im so over EVERY tweet, comment, or post about the protest starting with "Peaceful protest" "no clashes with police" ,or something similar.

   I'm sorry, but why is so important that everything surrounding the movement feel like a tea date, or God forbid..YOGA...( which a group in Wilmington actually did) yeah, cause doing yoga to protest murders of black men by police , 400yrs of slavery, and a justice system that has a mob like mentally...yoga is going to make a statement..

  Whatever makes people feel better I suppose. 

  Interesting to note is that white people have decided when violence is appropriate throughout American history. The Revolutionary war.. the war of 1812.

Spanish-American war, Civil  war, WW1, WW2, Korean, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraq, Afghanistan...etc

   It's not white people's place to set the narrative for whats going on  right now.  Doing so is just another way to use white privelage to benefit white people.

 I'm just over the addiction to controlling things we seem to have. Let the smoke rise and the glass break. WHATEVER it takes for this issue to be resolved.

  We can't afford not to get it right this time.

Why would violence resolve this issue? Violence against what and whom?

Violence often has blowback and unforeseen consequences.

[TCLT]

1 hour ago, joenc said:

Why would violence resolve this issue? Violence against what and whom?

 A big problem with America is the definition of what a violent protest is and who gets to set that definition. When being rowdy and uncivil, blocking streets, breaking windows, and lighting fires are all considered violence, it gives justification to assert control via any means necessary and that results in violence from law enforcement that escalates the situation and leads to more unrest. There's been essentially no real threat thus far of injury or death to police or the public. Minimal threat to property in most cities. But police have responded with brutal and sometimes life threatening force to protesters who are demonstrating against police brutality.

Unrest, civil disobedience, and property damage tend to force those in power to make concessions in order to regain control. No one with power gives any of it up if they have nothing to lose by keeping it. It's been only a week and Minneapolis is moving towards disbanding their police department and maybe sparking a more widespread experiment with disbanding or fundamentally restructuring the police. Cops are being fired and arrested for misconduct faster than we've seen before. Images and videos of ongoing police violence are moving public opinion away from the cops at an astonishing pace. Disobedience works.

1 hour ago, joenc said:

Violence often has blowback and unforeseen consequences.

True. I bet the cops didn't expect their slayings and beatings of civilians to spark a massive international protest movement against them.

[nyxmike]

9 hours ago, gman430 said:

Just another reason to vote for Trump in November. The liberals have gone absolutely bananas: https://www.yahoo.com/news/minneapolis-council-majority-backs-disbanding-233744273.html?bcmt=1 I can’t believe anybody with a half a brain actually supports this nonsense. Personally, I hope the city council members houses get looted and burned down first. It would send a very nice statement as to why this is a very bad and stupid idea.

You're completely missing the point. Nobody is saying to get rid of police officers completely.

Bender went on to say she and the eight other council members that joined the rally are committed to ending the city’s relationship with the police force and “to end policing as we know it and recreate systems that actually keep us safe.”

[Madison Parkitect]

 

10 hours ago, gman430 said:

I guess we just call Batman or Ninja Turtles once the banks start getting robbed.  

"Duhhhhh who will solve murders and stop robbers when there aren't any police?" is the stupidest possible thing you can say. That's not what "defund and disband" the police means and you know it.

[SouthEndCLT811]

 

[rancenc]

Just now, Madison Parkitect said:

 

"Duhhhhh who will solve murders and stop robbers when there aren't any police?" is the stupidest possible thing you can say. That's not what "defund and disband" the police means and you know it.

Well we could set up law enforcement as a pay as you need it service....contract out to Allied Barton Security or some similar group.

Dial #1 if your spouse has beat the crap out of you

Dial #2 for breaking and entering

Dial #3 for assault

Dial #4 for assault with a deadly weapon

Dial #5 for sexual assault

ETC ETC ETC

[joenc]

50 minutes ago, TCLT said:

 A big problem with America is the definition of what a violent protest is and who gets to set that definition. When being rowdy and uncivil, blocking streets, breaking windows, and lighting fires are all considered violence, it gives justification to assert control via any means necessary and that results in violence from law enforcement that escalates the situation and leads to more unrest. There's been essentially no real threat thus far of injury or death to police or the public. Minimal threat to property in most cities. But police have responded with brutal and sometimes life threatening force to protesters who are demonstrating against police brutality.

Unrest, civil disobedience, and property damage tend to force those in power to make concessions in order to regain control. No one with power gives any of it up if they have nothing to lose by keeping it. It's been only a week and Minneapolis is moving towards disbanding their police department and maybe sparking a more widespread experiment with disbanding or fundamentally restructuring the police. Cops are being fired and arrested for misconduct faster than we've seen before. Images and videos of ongoing police violence are moving public opinion away from the cops at an astonishing pace. Disobedience works.

True. I bet the cops didn't expect their slayings and beatings of civilians to spark a massive international protest movement against them.

Are the cops really the problem or is it the actual laws, especially the law that Biden sponsored, which he now regrets, and legislation signed into law by Bill Clinton in 94?

[TCLT]

1 minute ago, joenc said:

Are the cops really the problem or is it the actual laws, especially the law that Biden sponsored, which he now regrets, and legislation signed into law by Bill Clinton in 94?

Both. They're both part of the same systemic racism. But I'd argue that police (and DA's and judges) are the bigger problem, because the enforcement of the laws is far more lopsided than the laws themselves.

 

But are you seriously trying to blame systemic racism in law enforcement on Biden. I mean honestly. First of all, cops have been brutalizing black people since the country was founded, so it's very much ingrained in their culture. Plus it is laughable and so intellectually dishonest to try to paint the Democratic Party of 1994 as the party of racism, let alone the Democratic Party of 2020. 

[joenc]

No, I'm not, I'm blaming it on democracy.

Strong aggressive policing is very popular with suburban voters and older generations.

Especially ones that remember the violence of the 60s and 70s.

Edited June 8, 2020 by joenc

[TCLT]

6 minutes ago, joenc said:

Strong aggressive policing against minorities is very popular with white suburban voters and older white generations.

Added to your comment to make it more accurate. If 1/3 of young white men were in jail there'd be a very different opinion of strong, aggressive policing among those groups. There probably would be an armed insurrection. The application of criminal justice in America is woefully racist.

Edited June 8, 2020 by TCLT

[allthingsplanes]

I understand that "defund the police" is easier to say than the full explanation.  But there HAS to be a better term that will bring the more moderate people, who are starting to actually care and change their opinion of the BLM movement and systemic racism in police departments, along.  Trump has used fear tactics to his advantage before and is starting to try to do so again.  I'm afraid it will work with just enough people to not only cause this current movement to begin to fizzle out but ultimately make the election much closer than it needs to be.

I think right now a lot of more moderate and even some conservative people (voters) could understand the desire to reallocate some budgetary resources away from police as they are and into some other programs.  But they will be scared to death of the idea of getting rid of police.  Rightly so - if I'm threatened in my house or if my child's school has a shooter, I want the assurance that if 911 is called someone's going to show up immediately and be able to deal with the threat properly.

[kermit]

40 minutes ago, allthingsplanes said:

I understand that "defund the police" is easier to say than the full explanation.  But there HAS to be a better term that will bring the more moderate people, who are starting to actually care and change their opinion of the BLM movement and systemic racism in police departments, along.  Trump has used fear tactics to his advantage before and is starting to try to do so again.  I'm afraid it will work with just enough people to not only cause this current movement to begin to fizzle out but ultimately make the election much closer than it needs to be.

I think right now a lot of more moderate and even some conservative people (voters) could understand the desire to reallocate some budgetary resources away from police as they are and into some other programs.  But they will be scared to death of the idea of getting rid of police.  Rightly so - if I'm threatened in my house or if my child's school has a shooter, I want the assurance that if 911 is called someone's going to show up immediately and be able to deal with the threat properly.

I don”t disagree with any of this. However, this movement is so large and durable because people are expressing their frustration that any past effort at reform has been stalled or avoided in an effort to cater to moderates. People are frustrated and they want change now, they don’t want a bunch more talk just to help the folks who have not faced problems with policing feel better.

Anything that looks like stalling or concession is just going to stretch out the justifiable anger.
 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by kermit

[tozmervo]

[DMann]

2 hours ago, joenc said:

No, I'm not, I'm blaming it on democracy.

Strong aggressive policing is very popular with suburban voters and older generations.

Especially ones that remember the violence of the 60s and 70s.

The ones taht remember the violence of trhe 60's and 70's were probably creating it!!!!!!

[videtur quam contuor]

19 minutes ago, DMann said:

The ones taht remember the violence of trhe 60's and 70's were probably creating it!!!!!!

I am one of these young men. October 15, 1969. Other demonstrations  I participated in have no photo evidence.

Older voter who is not supportive of strong aggressive police action now, nor was I then.

There was a discussion on this board maybe two -three years ago about policing numbers. It is difficult to find clear numbers for sworn public officers here, or any city. The closest I could come was City officers in similarly sized cities that are also city/county administrations: Jacksonville and Indianapolis. Charlotte has about 15-200 more than both those cities. When adding Sheriff deputies, State Police assigned to County, and other public institution sworn officers, the number is close to 2500. This does NOT include office staff, only sworn. That is about one sworn officer for each 360 citizens, man, woman and child. Is that enough officers?

Edited June 8, 2020 by tarhoosier