May / June Charlotte protests

[Madison Parkitect]

11 hours ago, kermit said:

Where is the long-ago promised city/CMPD report (and promised body cam footage) on the 4th st kettleing?

Seems like they're just hoping people forget about it and it goes away, especially since the footage will make what they did pretty clear.

[rancenc]

3 hours ago, Madison Parkitect said:

Seems like they're just hoping people forget about it and it goes away, especially since the footage will make what they did pretty clear.

With the attention span of most Americans today, this will be a faded memory soon, especially as we progress into the presidential elections.

[kermit]

^ it will

Unfortunately it looks like they violated the civil rights of Charlotteans, put hundreds of people in danger, violated CMPD policy and perhaps some laws as well. As someone who pays taxes to support CMPD I am not willing to let that slide.

[cltbwimob]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

^ it will

Unfortunately it looks like they violated the civil rights of Charlotteans, put hundreds of people in danger, violated CMPD policy and perhaps some laws as well. As someone who pays taxes to support CMPD I am not willing to let that slide.

Serious question about this incident...was anyone actually hurt seriously in a physical sense-like broken bones, blindness, death, etc? Anything of that nature?  I haven’t seen anything to suggest that there was  a serious injury as a result of police actions, but I could have missed something.

[kermit]

16 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

Serious question about this incident...was anyone actually hurt seriously in a physical sense-like broken bones, blindness, death, etc? Anything of that nature?  I haven’t seen anything to suggest that there was  a serious injury as a result of police actions, but I could have missed something.

I have not heard about any broken bones, IIRC the Queen City Nerve video shows at least one person who was shot in the face with pepper balls and did have several visible welts, so there was certainly a potential for serious injury due to CMPD actions. There are other issues with using tear gas (abortifacient, prohibited in combat, etc) that we don’t need to go into. Even if CMPD was assaulted by protestors, they still violated their own policy (and I believe local ordinance) by not leaving protestors a clear avenue of escape from the chemical weapons.

Having said that, I don’t see how physical injuries are relevant to the seriousness of CMPD actions that night.  If the protestors did not assault the police (the report and body cam footage is what we need to prove that they did), then CMPD unilaterally decided to disperse a peaceful protest with violence. This is an abrogation of protestor”s speech rights without cause, making CMPD actions that night a constitutional violation on the same moral level as  government seizing people’s firearms without cause. Our freedom to protest without interference from the government is a foundational right of being American. I think you would agree that we should be hyper-vigilant about protecting those rights. 

Edited August 18, 2020 by kermit

[cltbwimob]

10 hours ago, kermit said:

I have not heard about any broken bones, IIRC the Queen City Nerve video shows at least one person who was shot in the face with pepper balls and did have several visible welts, so there was certainly a potential for serious injury due to CMPD actions. There are other issues with using tear gas (abortifacient, prohibited in combat, etc) that we don’t need to go into. Even if CMPD was assaulted by protestors, they still violated their own policy (and I believe local ordinance) by not leaving protestors a clear avenue of escape from the chemical weapons.

1. Welts are not a serious injury.  I’m going to guess-and admittedly I wasn’t there-that a) the police did not specifically aim for that person, and b) if the person would have listened to the dispersal order which was said to have been projected at 120dB, then they would not have been in position to be hit in the first place.  But taking the preferred narrative as given-that their was in fact no riot, and that the dispersal order was either not given or not loud enough to be heard despite the fact that the vehicle carrying the 120dB speaker was clearly identified by the SBI in video camera footage in the vicinity of the protestors-then you may have a point that the person was placed needlessly into a dangerous situation albeit with a very benign outcome.
 

2.  With respect to using tear gas, do you know why it is banned as a weapon of war?  I’ll let you in on a little secret, it’s not because it’s a particularly dangerous weapon, especially when used on rioters in the open air.  The reason why tear gas is not allowed as a weapon of war is primarily because it could be mistaken for, in the context of combat in hostile environments, a deadly chemical agent (I.e. Sarin, Mustard Gas, etc.) and lead to a cycle of retaliatory escalations that could spiral out of control. Call me crazy, but I don’t foresee any scenario in which  CMPD Tear Gas could be mistaken for Mustard Gas. And if CMPD did have Mustard Gas, I don’t think that civilian protestors would have the means to engage in a series of ever escalating retaliatory strikes against CMPD.  Additionally those same international laws that prohibit the use of Tear Gas as a weapon of war also carve out an exception for their use as domestic crowd control agent in part because the writers of those laws were concerned that if they didn’t do so, that some countries would resort to lethal means of crowd control.  

So the notion that Tear Gas is banned as a weapon of war and therefore it should be banned as a method of domestic crowd control is a faulty conclusion drawn from a misunderstood premise.  And when people say things such as police departments are allowed to use chemical weapons on their own populations-as if protestors are somehow supposed to be seen as equivalent to a WWI soldier in trenches getting gassed-it really just makes me shake my head.  The whole idea is just a blatant attempt at deception in my opinion.
 

3.  The SBI investigation identified 2 plausible escape routes based on camera footage, that were available to the protestors.   Here is an excerpt from a news story following the release of the report, that includes quotes from the SBI memo itself:  

SBI also reviewed the Facebook Live video from Queen City Nerve, and say it shows “two clear areas behind the protesters for escape.” The review says one avenue to the protesters rear was available by traveling back east on East 4th Street, The other clear escape avenue, according to SBI, was for the protesters to travel south on South College Street to escape the “riot control agents.”

“Smoke was observed in both avenue of escape, but no officers are seen blocking protesters for either option,” the review states.

So this notion that protestors  were boxed in by cops and not allowed to escape is patently false.

10 hours ago, kermit said:

Having said that, I don’t see how physical injuries are relevant to the seriousness of CMPD actions that night.  If the protestors did not assault the police (the report and body cam footage is what we need to prove that they did), then CMPD unilaterally decided to disperse a peaceful protest with violence. This is an abrogation of protestor”s speech rights without cause, making CMPD actions that night a constitutional violation on the same moral level as  government seizing people’s firearms without cause. Our freedom to protest without interference from the government is a foundational right of being American, we  all need to be hyper vigilant about protecting those rights. 

1.  The SBI report on the incident is already out.  As for body cam footage, that may or may not prove anything.  If what is contained in the SBI report is true-that objects were being thrown at the cops-there is plenty of reason to doubt that the body cam footage alone would be definitive one way or the other.  Furthermore, video evidence is often of limited value without proper context, and my guess is that the nature of the incident is so ambiguous and the passions so high that, if you personally were allowed to view body cam footage, you would see whatever it was that fit your narrative (based on previous comments on the matter, you seem to have already concluded that CMPD is at fault) with little room for nuance or reasonable doubt or anything like that.   

2.  My actual point in bringing up the question of serious injury was to segue into a larger point that I wanted to make about this incident-that point being that all this pearl-clutching regarding the alleged kettling smacks of disingenuousness and hypocrisy.  My sense is that some of the people who are “outraged” by this are white people of the leftist variety who in a weird way have used this incident as a means to appropriate the BLM movement, internalize it, and make it about themselves.  They believe that they too have experienced police brutality and thereby have something in common with members of the black community who have actually experienced real police brutality.  Of course this will be denied, but it’s my perception of what is going on here.

Secondly it’s really hard to take the “outrage” on this thread over the plight of a group of protestors who at worst suffered some welts and had to deal with some minor skin irritants (I know how it feels to be gassed with a similar agent-I’ve done gas chamber training) seriously when,  in the same thread, violence-real violence-committed by protestors has been papered over routinely.   There have been dozens of people killed, hundreds of people injured, thousands of livelihoods destroyed, and billions of dollars of property damage in the wake of the riots that have occurred across the country, but all of that is more or less dismissed from the discussion under the guise that “riots are the language of the unheard” or  one “cares more about order than justice” or its “just some broken windows.”

Having said all that, your logic in the second paragraph of your post (the one quoted directly above) is actually quite sound, and if taken at face value, I agree with it.  An oppressive police force that will violently suppress people’s first amendment rights is problematic for our society.  Our rights should be defended with hyper-vigilance, and if CMPD was in the wrong and it can be proven that they acted outside of applicable laws and policies, then shame on them.  
 

However you do not have  sufficient evidence to conclude that CMPD committed the rights violations of which you seemingly accuse them.   Additionally, my sense is, based on the comments you’ve made in this thread and others regarding police actions, you are not a dispassionate observer in the least.  So all the evidence you have seen has been filtered through a lens which seems to look for the very worst in police and your comments on policing should be taken with the tiniest grain of salt.

By all accounts, CMPD is one of the most professional, well-trained police forces in the country.  To listen to you and other “analysts” critique their actions the way you do is amusing.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, cltbwimob said:

However you do not have  sufficient evidence to conclude that CMPD committed the rights violations of which you seemingly accuse them.   

We disagree on this point.
1) The complete absence of an audible dispersal order in any of the video of the incident is the first question that needs to be answered.  (and the QCN video did include the 25 minutes before the incident when the SBI report claims the order was issued). While I am guessing CMPD did issue the order, it seems very unlikely it was audible to the majority of the protestors

2) Chief (at the time) Putney said the following day that he ‘reviewed the body cam footage and it will exonerate CMPD”. The SBI said there was no body cam footage. The lack of body cameras is a violation of CMPD policy. One of the two investigative agencies is lying about the existence of footage — why?

3) the SBI report says both escape routes were obscured by smoke but “no officers obstructed the routes.” While this may be true, it is reasonable that the amount of smoke made it impossible for protestors to see that those routes were an option. An invisible escape route is not a viable option in a situation like this.

4) The only evidence that the SBI report provides that protestors were throwing objects at CMPD was vaguely referenced ‘radio traffic’. The radio traffic said “bottles” were being thrown. But there was no mention of what type (they were most likely plastic water bottles) or how many. While some may argue that one is enough to justify the CMPD use of force, you say that ‘welts are not a serious injury’ and its hard to imagine a water bottle doing more damage than pepper balls fired at unprotected people’s faces.  

This ambiguity is my primary area of concern. Throwing objects at the police is how the gassing was justified, but very  little evidence has been offered to support this critical point. I was walking with protestors up until about an hour before the gassing happened, the crowd was entirely peaceful and there was no indication up to that point that the crowd would be likely to throw objects.

Finally, the mayor and chief of CMPD promised a swift city investigation and transparency in the process. My first post simply asked where that report was and why it has taken so long to release. 

I know that my questions are not sufficient to reach any definitive conclusions, but I think we have plenty of evidence that indicates we need to look much more closely at what did happen. 

I’ll leave open the possibility that CMPD did nothing wrong, but I believe the evidence suggests that its possible CMPD made huge mistakes that night. Unfortunately the city and CMPD have not  been forthcoming or honest about the events of that night and the (Lack of?) investigation which followed. 

 

[Hushpuppy321]

On 8/11/2020 at 1:17 PM, TCLT said:

White people and minorities often take similar actions for different reasons. And even if they take similar actions for similar reasons, the effects of those actions aren’t the same when different groups take them. We, as a society, really need to be more sophisticated when we talk about and think about race. Everyone wants to put their kids in good schools and get quality, safe, affordable housing. But we live in an inherently racist system. When minorities pursue those goals they often end up moving into “white” spaces. When white people pursue those goals they often end up creating “white” spaces that exclude minorities, either intentionally or as a consequence of economic realities. Equivocating is stupid and counterproductive when there’s a really profound lack of equality. And it causes us to miss the point. Racism exists, plain and simple, and affects every part of American society. And white people benefit from it whether or not they are “a racist”. But we get so caught up worrying about the accusation of racism that we ignore the very real consequences of racism and fail to address them.

Of course this reflexive defensiveness about a more than likely accurate accusation of racism probably distracts from the broader point [mention]kermit[/mention] was initially trying to make about the suburbs as an unsustainable and unjust construct.

 

Edit: This is a great TL;DR:

 

Extremely well spoken/explained.  Thank you kind Sir, or ma’am.....

[kermit]

Hmmm, why did the SBI report say that there was no body cam footage?

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/cmpd-release-body-cam-video-clash-4th-street-during-protests/BCAWSGDK3NEE3NHRUKBJMKPTXY/

 

 

https://www.wfae.org/post/sbi-report-tactics-used-against-protesters-shows-little-warning-given-escape-routes-through#stream/0

Edited August 26, 2020 by kermit

[kermit]

So the plan was to ambush protestors (two platoons were "out of sight"), confine them in a 'bottleneck' and then "hammer their ass." Tell me how ambushing protestors and intentionally limiting their escape routes ("bottleneck")  helps to achieve the CMPD goal of dispersing them?

Still no information on why none of the video from before the kettling has an audible dispersal order, or evidence that protestors were actually assaulting CMPD before the gassing. 

"To Protect and Serve"....

 

Blocking escape routes appears to have been part of the plan.

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by kermit

[jwntim]

Heres a link to the video of the body cam footage that got the officer suspended. 

https://twitter.com/queencitynerve/status/1298718282082467847

[TCLT]

Only one officer disciplined out of this whole thing is ridiculous, especially since this guy was only suspended and not fired. It’s appalling what cops can get away with.

[JRNYP2C]

On 8/26/2020 at 5:52 PM, kermit said:

So the plan was to ambush protestors (two platoons were "out of sight"), confine them in a 'bottleneck' and then "hammer their ass." Tell me how ambushing protestors and intentionally limiting their escape routes ("bottleneck")  helps to achieve the CMPD goal of dispersing them?

Still no information on why none of the video from before the kettling has an audible dispersal order, or evidence that protestors were actually assaulting CMPD before the gassing. 

"To Protect and Serve"....

 

Blocking escape routes appears to have been part of the plan.

 

What I found somewhat surprising, after listening to the story on WFAE this morning, was that the officer quoted above is not eligible for any type of promotion or raise for a two year period.  How about kicking him out of CMPD?  He's not a law enforcement officer I would want on the force.  Keep in mind, I'm basing this off of one incident.  However, it is a high profile incident that would be indicative of his behavior in any other situation.

 

[SgtCampsalot]

On 8/27/2020 at 6:10 PM, JRNYP2C said:

What I found somewhat surprising, after listening to the story on WFAE this morning, was that the officer quoted above is not eligible for any type of promotion or raise for a two year period.  How about kicking him out of CMPD?  He's not a law enforcement officer I would want on the force.  Keep in mind, I'm basing this off of one incident.  However, it is a high profile incident that would be indicative of his behavior in any other situation.

 

What I found more surprising is the fact that they're trying to pin this on just this one officer when it's obvious he's communicating a plan that already exists for the entire dept out that night.

[JRNYP2C]

10 hours ago, SgtCampsalot said:

What I found more surprising is the fact that they're trying to pin this on just this one officer when it's obvious he's communicating a plan that already exists for the entire dept out that night.

I appreciate the clarification.  I was so laser focused on the one officer that I didn't take into consideration that he may have been part of a larger group here.

[SgtCampsalot]

16 hours ago, JRNYP2C said:

I appreciate the clarification.  I was so laser focused on the one officer that I didn't take into consideration that he may have been part of a larger group here.

Good post from Braxton on Fb. It's disheartening to see nearly every other council member deferring their *actual job description* of overseeing CMPD to internal reviews.

 

[kermit]

21 hours ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Good post from Braxton on Fb. It's disheartening to see nearly every other council member deferring their *actual job description* of overseeing CMPD to internal reviews.

 

There is certainly a trend of US police departments ignoring their elected overseers / employers. I had hoped CMPD would be more responsive to community concerns than the average department, but it appears that is not the case. Of course as the Sargent points out, our council is failing us as well in allowing CMPD to ignore the rights of Charlotteans.