Northgate Mall Redevelopment

[Phillydog]

I couldn't find a thread dedicated to Northgate Mall -- I apologize if one already exists...

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2020/08/12/duke-plans-new-medical-complex-at-northgate-mall.html

 

[SydneyCarton]

18 hours ago, Phillydog said:

I couldn't find a thread dedicated to Northgate Mall -- I apologize if one already exists...

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2020/08/12/duke-plans-new-medical-complex-at-northgate-mall.html

 

A large problem with any redevelopment here is that it's in a terrible area.  It reminds me of the Pineville area of Charlotte but even a little worse.

[KJHburg]

However that makes it even better for redevelopment since retail is not working there.  A huge medical office building and then maybe some other uses like apartments or residential and a location right off I-85.  

[SydneyCarton]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

However that makes it even better for redevelopment since retail is not working there.  A huge medical office building and then maybe some other uses like apartments or residential and a location right off I-85.  

That's a good point. 

[nicholas]

On 8/13/2020 at 8:19 AM, SydneyCarton said:

A large problem with any redevelopment here is that it's in a terrible area.  It reminds me of the Pineville area of Charlotte but even a little worse.

Why?  It's very close to downtown Durham and is at the edge of a pretty solid grid street network.  I think with the right vision, it could become another urban node, sort of like 9th St next to Duke East Campus.

[SydneyCarton]

It just feels super-sketchy to me.  It's a pretty poor and grimy area.  That's my perspective.  If others have different impressions, I respect that.

Edited August 20, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[Phillydog]

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article247765430.html

It's pay-walled but essentially, the project will be kicking off soon.   A mini- North Hills.  I just hope there's a lot of density, structured parking, pedestrian improvements and connections to the existing streets.

[Durham_Transplant]

This is apparently a rendering of the Northgate redevelopment. It does indeed seem that Northwood is charging ahead with this. Excited to see some demo start to take place.

[Seaboard Fellow]

This will be the most significant urban develop directly adjacent to I-85 outside of the Atlanta metro. Tons of potential here. 

[RALNATIVE]

I'll reserve my  enthusiasm for this project until after it has been operational for a year or two.  That area is a bit too sketchy to have something too upscale.

On 8/19/2020 at 9:54 PM, SydneyCarton said:

It just feels super-sketchy to me.  It's a pretty poor and grimy area.  That's my perspective.  If others have different impressions, I respect that.

I agree with you and my thoughts exactly.

[Phillydog]

21 hours ago, RALNATIVE said:

I'll reserve my  enthusiasm for this project until after it has been operational for a year or two.  That area is a bit too sketchy to have something too upscale.

I agree with you and my thoughts exactly.

That's Durham, why we call it "Dirty Durham".  If people want beige, there's always Raleigh and Cary. 

[KJHburg]

actually I think this project will work fine.  You are talking apartments right and some retail.  there are already lots of jobs there right Measurement Inc and Duke?  Interstate access makes it accessible to many people.  No I dont think it would be North Hills type shopping but plenty of things can work as you can there from lots of places fast.  Northwoods would not be involved unless they knew they can make it a success ye of little faith.   I remember people thinking downtown Durham was a dump and scary and yet 1000s come over from Wake County to DPAC (at least before Covid), dine in the downtown restaurants   and look at downtown Durham now. 

Northgate | Northwood Retail : Northwood Retail

Edited January 17, 2021 by KJHburg

[RALNATIVE]

53 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

actually I think this project will work fine.  You are talking apartments right and some retail.  there are already lots of jobs there right Measurement Inc and Duke?  Interstate access makes it accessible to many people.  No I dont think it would be North Hills type shopping but plenty of things can work as you can there from lots of places fast.  Northwoods would not be involved unless they knew they can make it a success ye of little faith.   I remember people thinking downtown Durham was a dump and scary and yet 1000s come over from Wake County to DPAC (at least before Covid), dine in the downtown restaurants   and look at downtown Durham now. 

Northgate | Northwood Retail : Northwood Retail

The biggest issue, IMO, is the proximity to the interstate. Developments along  I-95 and I-85 tend to get a lot of not so desirable visitors heading north from FL  and GA  up to the northeast (i.e. drug runners, illegals, etc.).

Only time will tell how this development will eventually turn out. I'll remain neutral for now.

[paytonc]

New houses a block or two from Northgate sell for nearly $1M, and Durham's premier employer has made a huge commitment. Seems like a fairly good start, especially since the plan looks like it's mostly residential with some office at the I-85 edge.

On 1/16/2021 at 9:41 PM, RALNATIVE said:

Developments along  I-95 and I-85 tend to get a lot of not so desirable visitors heading north from FL  and GA  up to the northeast (i.e. drug runners, illegals, etc.).

Correlation is not causation. I'd argue that the long-distance interstates were often routed around the "wrong side of the tracks" of each city -- often intentionally, since federal highway money was easy to use for urban renewal purposes. That legacy, plus the lower-wage industrial jobs that followed the interstates, seems more likely why those highways remain on the wrong side of town today.

Edited January 19, 2021 by paytonc

[Durham_Transplant]

9 hours ago, paytonc said:

New houses a block or two from Northgate sell for nearly $1M, and Durham's premier employer has made a huge commitment. Seems like a fairly good start, especially since the plan looks like it's mostly residential with some office at the I-85 edge.

Yeah when you really take a close look at the map this property is literally blocks from East Campus and Trinity Park. 2 miles flat to the center of downtown. The biggest issue with the neighborhood is that it’s been anchored by a failing suburban-style shopping mall for decades. Once that’s no longer the case there’s no reason to expect that this won’t be a highly desirable area in which to live. 

[Phillydog]

45 minutes ago, Durham_Transplant said:

Yeah when you really take a close look at the map this property is literally blocks from East Campus and Trinity Park. 2 miles flat to the center of downtown. The biggest issue with the neighborhood is that it’s been anchored by a failing suburban-style shopping mall for decades. Once that’s no longer the case there’s no reason to expect that this won’t be a highly desirable area in which to live. 

The only issue with the area becoming more comfortable for suburban visitors and prospective residents and workers,  isn't the market area, demographics, or especially location...it's the attitude of residents in the area.  They tend to the far left of the political spectrum and don't like the idea of gentrification.

[dmccall]

On 1/16/2021 at 4:02 PM, Phillydog said:

That's Durham, why we call it "Dirty Durham".  If people want beige, there's always Raleigh and Cary. 

Cute monikers aside, in 2019 Durham County had the sixth-highest violent crime rate (murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault) in NC with 704 per 100,000. 

Wake County had 250 (#37) and Orange County had 152 (#88). So, Durham's County's Violent Crime Rate is 2.8X higher than Wake's, and 4.6X higher than Orange's.

The most violent counties are Edgecombe (931), Cumberland (787), Forsyth (760), Robeson (768), and Vance (756). By comparison, New Jersey's most violent county, Cumberland, had a rate of 421 violent crimes per 100,000.

Edited January 22, 2021 by dmccall

[Phillydog]

On 1/22/2021 at 10:15 AM, dmccall said:

Cute monikers aside, in 2019 Durham County had the sixth-highest violent crime rate (murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault) in NC with 704 per 100,000. 

Wake County had 250 (#37) and Orange County had 152 (#88). So, Durham's County's Violent Crime Rate is 2.8X higher than Wake's, and 4.6X higher than Orange's.

The most violent counties are Edgecombe (931), Cumberland (787), Forsyth (760), Robeson (768), and Vance (756). By comparison, New Jersey's most violent county, Cumberland, had a rate of 421 violent crimes per 100,000.

Violent crime rates in NC's cities is pretty tame then, including Durham.  Atlanta's rate is 935/100000,  DC is 938, Buffalo is 1019, Nashville is 1138, Anchorage is 1203.  Even Boston is 680, Des Moines is 685, and San Francisco is 715...  According to your numbers, Boise, Idaho (279) is more dangerous than Raleigh as is Austin, TX (415).  According to you, you'd better be careful after dark in Madison, WI with 474/100000.  And, the most violent city in New Jersey, is Newark with 960/100,000.  One of the safest cities in the US?  New York.  

Edited January 26, 2021 by Phillydog

[dmccall]

The numbers I cited are from NCSBI and are for counties, not cities as your numbers are. Obviously the numbers are higher in cities than in the remainder of the respective counties.

[Durham_Transplant]

Everything in the mall being auctioned off right now. All signs point to demolition starting summer 2021. Will be really exciting to see this project take shape. Durham is really on the cusp of some big things right now.

[Phillydog]

On 4/12/2021 at 8:04 PM, Durham_Transplant said:

Everything in the mall being auctioned off right now. All signs point to demolition starting summer 2021. Will be really exciting to see this project take shape. Durham is really on the cusp of some big things right now.

I'm psyched about this project..  I just hope Durham neighborhood groups don't @%#& it up. 

BTW, someone needs to ask the city what it's doing with Powell Bill $.  The streets in Durham are a wreck.  

Maybe Durham needs a pro-growth community group.

[Phillydog]

Announced today...decostruction and redevelopment to start in  May.

[Durham_Transplant]

I find it curious how little has been said publicly about a project of this magnitude. There was the blurb in January about CBRE being awarded the leasing agreement. There is the presumed rendering from the Northwood website. And now a few articles about the mall assets being auctioned off in advance of demolition starting this summer. Just seems like there is usually quite a bit more fanfare and publicity about developments this size.

Downtown Durham Inc is hosting a “State of Downtown Durham” virtual event next Wednesday and one of the segments is exclusively focused on the major development projects underway. Jeff Furman of Northwood is one of the panel members for that discussion. I’m sure Northgate will be brought up and will be interested to what extent he comments on it. Will be in attendance and will share anything of interest here.

[rancenc]

Looks like new plans for the old Northgate Mall site.

https://www.wral.com/developer-changes-plans-for-durham-s-northgate-mall/20432548/

[KJHburg]

I am very surprised they are not doing some residential at the site I get the life sciences and lab space which is good but some residential would help the retail and the area.