NC Music Factory / Uptown Village / Deco One

[CLTProductions]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

^Norfolk Southern would never consent to a new at grade crossing there and they are who gets to decide.

Why wouldn't they?

[southslider]

^There used to be a crossing less than ten years ago.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Jayvee said:

Why wouldn't they?

Railroads in general, and Norfolk Southern in particular, have instituted policies of no new grade crossings on mainline tracks. The crossings create liability problems and (more importantly) slowdown the intermodal trains that they need to go fast. The NCRR (who's tracks end about 1/4 mile east) has been particularly religious about this policy. The speed of the NCRR combined with the new intermodal terminal at CLT means that NS has lots to gain from reducing grade crossings on their tracks between the NCRR and Atlanta. 

I am sure NS would be fine if an overpass was built, but ADM and cemetery preservation folks would plotz.

The city should have encouraged ADM to relocate to Gaston County along the P&N line a decade ago.

Edited July 15, 2016 by kermit

[Spartan]

3 hours ago, birky said:

Apologies for the randomness here.  I was riding through Elmwood on Wednesday and discovered that you can, in fact, cut through the cemetery over to Music Factory Blvd.  A few thoughts:  Has there ever been any talk of reconnecting 9th st. through the train tracks (yellow), so that folks can get over to the Music Factory without having to leave uptown?  It seems like it would also help redevelop the empty/vacant lots around there, including the old Standard Fuel building (red), which appears condemned.

Reconnecting 9th St is a non-starter, but there have been discussions about how to bridge over the tracks. I woudn't get your hopes up about something actually happening anytime soon though. 

1 hour ago, Jayvee said:

Why wouldn't they?

First, you have to understand that railroad companies hate it when streets cross their tracks at grade. In their worldview, all roads would only go above or below their tracks. The allows for unimpeded train movement, virtually no risk of collisions, and removes the need to blow horns and block traffic. As a result of their policy and the City's desire to see high speed rail someday, there are often attempts to close roads like this by the railroad companies. The City uses that as leverage in negotiations with the RR companies for things it wants (keeping in mind that in general, they want the roads crossings to stay open). I don't know what the city received in the deal to close 9th St, but don't assume it was nothing or that it was completely forced.

In similar situations, the City/NCDOT built a bridge to connect Grier Rd to Old Concord Rd in exchange for disconnecting Orr Rd nearby, and Mallard Creek Church Rd will get extended underneath the railroad tracks at UC Blvd eventually.

[videtur quam contuor]

There was a grade crossing there and eliminated about five years ago with the Music Factory Boulevard completion. Re-opening it, Nah.

[BullDurhamer]

On 4/29/2016 at 8:04 AM, UrbanGossip said:

We have 2 new large parks uptown.  Romare Bearden park is 2 city blocks and very well used 10 hours a day.  First Ward Park will be the same once the planned development around it comes online.  I guess we are missing athletic fields uptown if that's what you mean?  But as for moving a cemetery it's a silly discussion to even have when there is still so much relatively cheap land to be used.  The discussion should be more about improving the pedestrian experience through Elmwood to connect uptown and Music Factory.

neither park will be nearly big enough to support an uptown full of people down the line.  not even close.  

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

Gloomy day...but here is an aerial perspective of the construction update on Avid.  Parking deck completed and exterior is starting to be put in place on the main building.  Also, shows the cemetery and land you guys have been mentioning between here and Uptown. 

[ah59396]

48 minutes ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

Gloomy day...but here is an aerial perspective of the construction update on Avid.  Parking deck completed and exterior is starting to be put in place on the main building.  Also, shows the cemetery and land you guys have been mentioning between here and Uptown. 

It's a shame this building is so hideous and visible from 77 South Bound into uptown.  I really hate this project more than most.

[caterpillar2]

24 minutes ago, ah59396 said:

It's a shame this building is so hideous and visible from 77 South Bound into uptown.  I really hate this project more than most.

Just glad to see it going up. Don't you think that it will improve as time goes on? 

[ah59396]

19 minutes ago, caterpillar2 said:

Just glad to see it going up. Don't you think that it will improve as time goes on? 

I do not.  I beat this drum pretty hard, but I think this is the most disappointing project underway in Uptown.  

 

If you consider

The company:  home grown, wants to tout itself as 'millenial' and 'silicon valley-equse'

The location:  Prominent vantage point from 77, historic location next to the Music Factory within the 277 loop

The neighbor:  The Music Factory, an example of what excellent historical refurbishing can look like

 

This could have been a game changer for that part of uptown and a real flash of brilliance from Avid.  That said, we got this:

 

 

And while I'm pretty much beating a dead horse here; those things belong in Ballantyne or U City.  I just don't see how they can "improve as time goes on".

[CLTProductions]

This is a horse worth beating. This is far and away the worst thing going. Add to that their ridiculous MF rebranding they can F off

[deleted]

1 hour ago, ah59396 said:

The company:  home grown, wants to tout itself as 'millenial' and 'silicon valley-equse'

The neighbor:  The Music Factory, an example of what excellent historical refurbishing can look like

These two points in particular.  That design just makes no sense and I like this even less than the Embassy Suites (and I hate that)...

[Nick2]

Is it possible to be improved on in the future? Like if there was a walkable neighborhood built around the buildings in the future and they were to add a lot of retail on ground floor and some nice green space around it...or is this just simply a lost cause? I understand the buildings just suck in general in the way that they were designed but how is it that it can't get fixed or helped in the future?

[KJHburg]

I am okay with these building designs. At least these jobs did not leave Charlotte like LPL and Lash Group to Ft Mill. I would rather seen these buildings go up here than somewhere else. Besides that area is on the fringe of uptown not like this is Tryon Street address.  It also comes to down to money and these office workers will infuse more growth into the NC Music Factory. A future phase will include apartments next to these I think (not talking about the ones underway now by the freeway)

[caterpillar2]

15 hours ago, ah59396 said:

I do not.  I beat this drum pretty hard, but I think this is the most disappointing project underway in Uptown.  

 

If you consider

The company:  home grown, wants to tout itself as 'millenial' and 'silicon valley-equse'

The location:  Prominent vantage point from 77, historic location next to the Music Factory within the 277 loop

The neighbor:  The Music Factory, an example of what excellent historical refurbishing can look like

 

This could have been a game changer for that part of uptown and a real flash of brilliance from Avid.  That said, we got this:

 

 

And while I'm pretty much beating a dead horse here; those things belong in Ballantyne or U City.  I just don't see how they can "improve as time goes on".

I judged too soon. I see your point and agree. Of course, I was (am) happy just to see the frame. I had no idea that the end project was going to be so bad. Hopefully the end product isn't as ugly as the UNC building in 1st ward. It is awful to look at. 

[ah59396]

10 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I am okay with these building designs. At least these jobs did not leave Charlotte like LPL and Lash Group to Ft Mill. I would rather seen these buildings go up here than somewhere else. Besides that area is on the fringe of uptown not like this is Tryon Street address.  It also comes to down to money and these office workers will infuse more growth into the NC Music Factory. A future phase will include apartments next to these I think (not talking about the ones underway now by the freeway)

Isn't that a pretty low bar to set though?  "At least these jobs stayed in uptown" shouldn't be an excuse for crappy architecture.  

 

And regarding the area, I respectfully disagree with your idea that it's on the "fringe" of uptown.  The Gulch in Nashville is on the "fringe" of downtown and has built itself well into the urban fabric of the city.  Both are roughly the same distance from "downtown".  It won't be too long before you consider the Music Factory part of Uptown.

[cjd5050]

15 hours ago, ah59396 said:

This could have been a game changer for that part of uptown and a real flash of brilliance from Avid.  That said, we got this:

I get that they are bland because they are and I get that it could have been so much more.  But I think it always comes down to how much does it cost v. what is the return.  I don't know how well AvidXchange is doing financially but it's possible that they are extending themselves just on the build and employee expansion and there simply was not enough money to do something game changing on the exterior.  

Personally I have always thought there should be some sort of tax credit program in every major city that helps encourage the construction of great architecture.  The way I see it, outside of ego the return on the additional investment is really hard for a developer to see.  They would rather focus their money on the inside as that pays the bills.  It's mostly the community that finds issue with the exterior as that's all they see.  So isn't it fair for the community to find a way to help fund the development of exteriors that they want?

 

 

 

 

 

[KJHburg]

It is on the fringe of uptown  It is physically separately from the heart of the city by the railroad tracks, the cemetery and the only way to get to it is go by car really. This is not a SouthEnd which flows right from uptown even across 277.  Jobs always win over architecture in my book even though I love great architecture. Looks at the bland warehouse buildings being built all over town they provide jobs but not much to look at.   We have a lot of great architecture uptown lets celebrate those buildings for not every building is going to be an architectural gem according to some of yall's standards. 

[HopHead]

I disagree on the UNC Charlotte building. While it's certainly not my favorite building in uptown, they at least tried to demonstrate some imagination. Unlike AvidExhange whom apparently studied architecture in Ballantyne or any other suburban office park in the US.

[cjd5050]

30 minutes ago, HopHead said:

I disagree on the UNC Charlotte building. While it's certainly not my favorite building in uptown, they at least tried to demonstrate some imagination. Unlike AvidExhange whom apparently studied architecture in Ballantyne or any other suburban office park in the US.

Or maybe they simply had the look of the outside of the building way down the list?  

The new building is 115,000/sf and the interior build just from an office space view can range from $60/sf to $140/sf and that's before you get to more expensive technology related costs.  If AvidExhange had a budget of $20 Million for the build..that's the budget.    I don't think it's unreasonable that instead of going over their budget or sacrificing interior space for their employees to appease the general public, they instead spent less on the exterior.  Especially when you're about to go on a hiring spree and the workspace, not the view driving in, is going to be considered by the potential employee.  

Less in design costs, less in material costs and less in labor costs means more can be spent on the interior or less risk for cost overruns.  

 

 

 

 

[SgtCampsalot]

You know what, this is the perfect opportunity to test the theory that any area where the light poles are littered with stapled-on band posters and show flyers is automatically cool:

I mean it's a match made in heaven: Blanditecture in desperate need of saving, right next to like three music venues. Go into the office, see a flyer on your lunch break, get off, go to a show. Bing bang boom. Maybe the planned apartments will have coffee shops, et al, with some street cred.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2016 by SgtCampsalot

[tozmervo]

42 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

Or maybe they simply had the look of the outside of the building way down the list?  

The new building is 115,000/sf and the interior build just from an office space view can range from $60/sf to $140/sf and that's before you get to more expensive technology related costs.  If AvidExhange had a budget of $20 Million for the build..that's the budget.    I don't think it's unreasonable that instead of going over their budget or sacrificing interior space for their employees to appease the general public, they instead spent less on the exterior.  Especially when you're about to go on a hiring spree and the workspace, not the view driving in, is going to be considered by the potential employee.  

Less in design costs, less in material costs and less in labor costs means more can be spent on the interior or less risk for cost overruns.  

I strongly challenge the assumption that this couldn't have been a much better project with a tight budget. The problem is that everything from the site planning to the building massings to the material selections are extremely suburban in nature. I think this project was specifically designed to be spec, meaning that Avid does not have long-term plans to be in the space and they want to unload it quickly down the line. Someone else on this board may have more knowledge on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if a developer was actually footing the bill and will be leasing space back to Avid. 

[ah59396]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

It is on the fringe of uptown  It is physically separately from the heart of the city by the railroad tracks, the cemetery and the only way to get to it is go by car really. This is not a SouthEnd which flows right from uptown even across 277.  Jobs always win over architecture in my book even though I love great architecture. Looks at the bland warehouse buildings being built all over town they provide jobs but not much to look at.   We have a lot of great architecture uptown lets celebrate those buildings for not every building is going to be an architectural gem according to some of yall's standards. 

"Jobs always win over architecture in my book..."

Isn't that pretty much the antithesis of what we discuss on here?  Building for the sake of building is pretty much the epitome of what got us into sprawl.  But you are entitled to your opinion.

 

I agree the Music Factory is on the fringe of uptown.  I misspoke in saying it wasn't, I was implying that, despite its location, it's still close enough that it should warrant better architecture.  IMO.

 

Edit:  Hopefully ^that^ doesn't come off as contentious.  I actually find this to be an interesting conversation.

Edited July 26, 2016 by ah59396
FEELINGS

[cjd5050]

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

I strongly challenge the assumption that this couldn't have been a much better project with a tight budget. The problem is that everything from the site planning to the building massings to the material selections are extremely suburban in nature. I think this project was specifically designed to be spec, meaning that Avid does not have long-term plans to be in the space and they want to unload it quickly down the line. Someone else on this board may have more knowledge on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if a developer was actually footing the bill and will be leasing space back to Avid. 

Can you share some changes that you would have done to make things better?

[Spartan]

21 hours ago, ah59396 said:

I do not.  I beat this drum pretty hard, but I think this is the most disappointing project underway in Uptown.  

 

If you consider

The company:  home grown, wants to tout itself as 'millenial' and 'silicon valley-equse'

The location:  Prominent vantage point from 77, historic location next to the Music Factory within the 277 loop

The neighbor:  The Music Factory, an example of what excellent historical refurbishing can look like

 

This could have been a game changer for that part of uptown and a real flash of brilliance from Avid.  That said, we got this:

 

 

And while I'm pretty much beating a dead horse here; those things belong in Ballantyne or U City.  I just don't see how they can "improve as time goes on".

 

5 hours ago, ah59396 said:

Isn't that a pretty low bar to set though?  "At least these jobs stayed in uptown" shouldn't be an excuse for crappy architecture.  

 

And regarding the area, I respectfully disagree with your idea that it's on the "fringe" of uptown.  The Gulch in Nashville is on the "fringe" of downtown and has built itself well into the urban fabric of the city.  Both are roughly the same distance from "downtown".  It won't be too long before you consider the Music Factory part of Uptown.

 

5 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

I get that they are bland because they are and I get that it could have been so much more.  But I think it always comes down to how much does it cost v. what is the return.  I don't know how well AvidXchange is doing financially but it's possible that they are extending themselves just on the build and employee expansion and there simply was not enough money to do something game changing on the exterior.  

Personally I have always thought there should be some sort of tax credit program in every major city that helps encourage the construction of great architecture.  The way I see it, outside of ego the return on the additional investment is really hard for a developer to see.  They would rather focus their money on the inside as that pays the bills.  It's mostly the community that finds issue with the exterior as that's all they see.  So isn't it fair for the community to find a way to help fund the development of exteriors that they want?

Can we all just agree that the NCMF is functionally outside of uptown? 

4 hours ago, KJHburg said:

It is on the fringe of uptown  It is physically separately from the heart of the city by the railroad tracks, the cemetery and the only way to get to it is go by car really. This is not a SouthEnd which flows right from uptown even across 277.  Jobs always win over architecture in my book even though I love great architecture. Looks at the bland warehouse buildings being built all over town they provide jobs but not much to look at.   We have a lot of great architecture uptown lets celebrate those buildings for not every building is going to be an architectural gem according to some of yall's standards. 

Exactly. I'd like to point out that I-277 is also a barrier. While it's technically located inside of the 277 loop - you have to cross 277 twice to get there.

I think good architecture makes cities better, more interesting places to live. Obviously what makes for good architecture is highly subjective, but in this case it does look and feel like a building you'd find in UCity. Every building doesn't need to be a masterpiece, but if it incorporates good urban design elements it can still be a win. The Avid buildings aren't doing anything to create active ground floor uses even though the buildings themselves are appropriately up to the street and the parking faces the interstate.

 

4 hours ago, HopHead said:

I disagree on the UNC Charlotte building. While it's certainly not my favorite building in uptown, they at least tried to demonstrate some imagination. Unlike AvidExhange whom apparently studied architecture in Ballantyne or any other suburban office park in the US.

Acknowledging a 'good effort' to create good architecture is like giving kids participation ribbons on field day.

 

5 hours ago, ah59396 said:

And regarding the area, I respectfully disagree with your idea that it's on the "fringe" of uptown.  The Gulch in Nashville is on the "fringe" of downtown and has built itself well into the urban fabric of the city.  Both are roughly the same distance from "downtown".  It won't be too long before you consider the Music Factory part of Uptown.

The Gulch is more comparable to Gateway Village. Gateway is in uptown, but physically separated by railroad tracks. It's not hard to get to by walking (aside from the terrain).

 

---

 

This location is just awkward for any use. The fact is that we're pretty lucky that there's even anything like the NCMF or office/residential interest there. I don't see how this area can ever be truly walkable or desirable as a neighborhood (and no, it is not a functional part of 4th ward) so I say cram as much density as we can on that wedge of land and do everything to support the NCMF (which is overall a great thing for Charlotte).