Shockoe Bottom

[Hike]

4 hours ago, Jawless said:

@I miss RVA Here are a few photos of the Bakery Lofts I took this weekend. These are taken from the edge of 118 N 18th Street. Only a little bit of activity going on. I'm not 100% sure what they are doing. 

If any area needed to see some development, here it is.  Let’s hope this is just the beginning for what has been void of growth for far too long.

[wrldcoupe4]

The linchpin is the Lovings land holdings. They control most of what hasn’t been touched that can be touched (excluding slave heritage sites obviously). 

[Jawless]

38 minutes ago, Hike said:

If any area needed to see some development, here it is.  Let’s hope this is just the beginning for what has been void of growth for far too long.

For real. So many pointless parking lots in the Bottom. 

[Hike]

52 minutes ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

The linchpin is the Lovings land holdings. They control most of what hasn’t been touched that can be touched (excluding slave heritage sites obviously). 

Do the Lovings still have control over more land, which means the lack of development is still in their hands?

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, Hike said:

If any area needed to see some development, here it is.  Let’s hope this is just the beginning for what has been void of growth for far too long.

Agreed. The area needs to get rolling development-wise.

If (in response to your question) the Lovings are indeed in control of so much land in the Bottom, then it would seem that they are the ones controlling development. Maybe they're turning quite a dollar off of all those wasteful parking lots. They could well be anti-growth-development-height/pro status-quo (who knows!!) - (I tend to think it's more an economic calculus for them than ideological).

6 hours ago, Jawless said:

@I miss RVA Here are a few photos of the Bakery Lofts I took this weekend. These are taken from the edge of 118 N 18th Street. Only a little bit of activity going on. I'm not 100% sure what they are doing. 

@Jawless-- Thank you SO much for taking and posting these!! It's SO good to see activity on this site, finally!

Edited August 29, 2022 by I miss RVA

[Jawless]

Do the Lovings control the huge lot between 16th st and Oliver Hill Way? I want to see that developed so badly. 

[whw53]

54 minutes ago, Jawless said:

Do the Lovings control the huge lot between 16th st and Oliver Hill Way? I want to see that developed so badly. 

Yes - project is being planned after successful rezoning a couple years back. Hints that have dropped include that project will include grocery and 4 residential towers. No formal POD has been submitted. 

[I miss RVA]

2 minutes ago, whw53 said:

Yes - project is being planned after successful rezoning a couple years back. Hints that have dropped include that project will include grocery and 4 residential towers. No formal POD has been submitted. 

Ohhh yeah - I forgot that the site of the possible four residential towers is a Loving-owned block. Were they selling the land or actually potentially developing the project?

[eandslee]

26 minutes ago, whw53 said:

Yes - project is being planned after successful rezoning a couple years back. Hints that have dropped include that project will include grocery and 4 residential towers. No formal POD has been submitted. 

It’s been crickets ever since this project was announced.  Not even sure why there was an announcement if they are not going to do anything with it. So frustrating!  This plot of land has had something planned for it for many years…including, at least, 2 different major developments (the ballpark and now this one)!  And yet, we’re still here with empty lots and zero activity.

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, eandslee said:

It’s been crickets ever since this project was announced.  Not even sure why there was an announcement if they are not going to do anything with it. So frustrating!  This plot of land has had something planned for it for many years…including, at least, 2 different major developments (the ballpark and now this one)!  And yet, we’re still here with empty lots and zero activity.

I agree, brother. But I have to tap my inner Zen and advise - "patience, Grasshopper!"  Ever notice how stuff like this tends to crawl along and then all of a sudden - BOOM!! It seems to come all at once. Thankfully, there's activity now with the Bakery Lofts a few blocks away. Let's see if that serves as a dominio-tipping project that gets this project moving. Much as demand for residential development in the city is absolutely off the scale hot - a four-tower project is HUGE by the standards of all but a few cities, much less by RVA standards. I'm hopeful we'll see movement on this one. Until then, I want movement on the other projects we know about already. The Admiral... Locks 7 & 8. South Falls II and III. Let's get THESE bad boys underway - get the dirt turned, footings poured, and structures starting to come out of the ground. This Loving project - while really awesome - is still really an unknown quantity. But the Admiral, Locks, South Falls are all KNOWN quantities that have been in the pipeline for a long time. Time for them to get rolling!

Edited August 29, 2022 by I miss RVA

[Hike]

51 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

I agree, brother. But I have to tap my inner Zen and advise - "patience, Grasshopper!"  Ever notice how stuff like this tends to crawl along and then all of a sudden - BOOM!! It seems to come all at once. Thankfully, there's activity now with the Bakery Lofts a few blocks away. Let's see if that serves as a dominio-tipping project that gets this project moving. Much as demand is off the scale - a four-tower project is HUGE by the standards of all but a few cities, much less by RVA standards. I'm hopeful we'll see movement on this one. Until then, I want movement on the other projects we know about already. The Admiral... Locks 7 & 8. South Falls II and III. Let's get THESE bad boys underway - get the dirt turned, footings poured, and structures starting to come out of the ground. This Loving project - while really awesome - is still really an unknown quantity. But the Admiral, Locks, South Falls are all KNOWN quantities that have been in the pipeline for a long time. Time for them to get rolling!

I agree, let’s see these get going. I do have some reservations about the economy with trying to slow down inflation by raising interest rates and what effect that may have. The economy is moving along well and also low unemployment, let’s hope those stay strong and any interest rate hikes don’t hurt us here.

[wrldcoupe4]

Inflation is hurting deals but a recession might too. It’s a weird time. 

[I miss RVA]

2 minutes ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

Inflation is hurting deals but a recession might too. It’s a weird time. 

That's the tricky part. Much as we don't want any kind of economic slowdown, inflation is really putting a dent in construction. How much farther along would development be in RVA right now has inflation not spiked construction costs SO profoundly over the past year and a half?

I suppose the big question is how to curb inflation while keeping the economy robust - that's the "sweet spot" that will keep RVA's development engine chugging along!

[Downtowner]

1 hour ago, I miss RVA said:

That's the tricky part. Much as we don't want any kind of economic slowdown, inflation is really putting a dent in construction. How much farther along would development be in RVA right now has inflation not spiked construction costs SO profoundly over the past year and a half?

I suppose the big question is how to curb inflation while keeping the economy robust - that's the "sweet spot" that will keep RVA's development engine chugging along!

It will be worse with inflation if people start getting laid off. How the heck can anyone survive when you get laid off and on top inflation gets worse each and every day. 

[I miss RVA]

17 minutes ago, Downtowner said:

It will be worse with inflation if people start getting laid off. How the heck can anyone survive when you get laid off and on top inflation gets worse each and every day. 

With all due respect and friendship, I would argue inflation is NOT getting worse each and every day AT THIS TIME. (Yes - it's still problematic but it's not been spiking in all areas the way it had been for significant portions of the past 18 to 24 months, give or take). Gas prices has been dropping incrementally every day now for approaching three months. There are other sectors where inflation HAS cooled - although there is still a CONSIDERABLE amount of price-gouging going on in certain industries (food, unfortunately, seems to be one of them). Now, I'm a historian and a former journalist, not an economist - but I would contend that the Fed is acting TOO hastily right now - and perhaps still too aggressively with possible imposition of additional interest rate hikes. Certainly, I don't mean to suggest we're out of the woods yet inflation wise, but the situation HAS improved, at least in some sectors. Unfortunately, not all of these improvements are getting enough oxygen broadly speaking in the MSM (and this is not meant to lead us down any kind of political rabbit holes, so please, let's not venture down any, okay?  I'm just speaking to some simple, easily sourceable and provable facts that are not subject to spin or opinion). The purpose of this comment is to simply point out that it's not 100% factually accurate to broad-brush the economic situation as getting worse by the day when the hard data proves otherwise.

THAT said - I fully agree that it is very difficult for folks to get laid off - and a major economic slowdown (GOD-FORBID) is something we must avoid. I'm 100% with you that keeping one's income coming in - is imperative! Keep the faith, brother! 

[ronsmytheiii]

On 8/29/2022 at 8:15 AM, Jawless said:

@I miss RVA Here are a few photos of the Bakery Lofts I took this weekend. These are taken from the edge of 118 N 18th Street. Only a little bit of activity going on. I'm not 100% sure what they are doing. 

And this is the old Brick building they tore down, shame the side of the building had more character than the facade of most new buildings

[I miss RVA]

2 hours ago, ronsmytheiii said:

And this is the old Brick building they tore down, shame the side of the building had more character than the facade of most new buildings

With all due respect, I will GLADLY take the 12-story residential building that will inject LIFE into the Bottom over all of the old architecture in Richmond combined ANY day of the week. My only lament is that it's ONLY 12 stories - and not 24!

Again, I respectfully submit that THIS VERY MINDSET that you're promulgating - kvetching over EVERY OLD BUILDING that gets knocked down (making way for Richmond to grow) is the mindset that has held this city back SO severely over the past 50 years. Richmond CANNOT FLOURISH ON CHARACTER AND CHARM, NO MATTER HOW PRETTY IT MIGHT BE! I'm sorry you don't like the direction RIchmond is going. But the simple fact of the matter is that the city is booming - THANK GOD - and the momentum is only increasing. Again, THANK GOD!!!

NOT EVERY OLD BUILDING CAN -- OR EVEN SHOULD -- BE SAVED!  Let me ask you this: If this building was in the way of the new Bakery Lofts building, please explain to me exactly HOW would it be more beneficial to save this building and either truncate or altogether cancel a large residential building that will bring PEOPLE to the Bottom? People LIVING... WORKING... PLAYING... in the Bottom?  Look how utterly desolate this block is. FAR better that the entire block (parking lots and old, small building - ALL OF IT) be cleared and replaced with a significantly larger structure, the function of which is to bring PEOPLE. RESIDENTS. Not tourists. RESIDENTS. I'll take 100 residents over 500 tourists any day of the week. While there is an off chance a few of those 500 tourists might some day move to Richmond, the vast likelihood is that 99.9% of them won't. But those 100 residents will be there in the Bottom - 24-7-365 - and that will allow businesses to establish themselves nearby and hopefully flourish.

Economic development FAR outweighs an emphasis on character and aesthetics when it comes to the viability of a growing city. IF - and that's a HUGE "IF" - aesthetics can be tailored such to add and enhance the new development, all well and good. But it should not - and MUST NOT - be the top priority. Period. Cities cannot survive like that. Not in today's world where markets are in CONSTANT economic competition. Either you stay relevant - which means you grow - you compete - you win - or you get blown out of the water and left behind. FAR TOO MANY "PEER" cities have BLOWN BY us as if we were not merely standing still but going backwards. I'm GRATEFUL that Richmond is (FINALLY) growing - and if you've read any of the drivel I post on here, you already know my biggest lament is that Richmond isn't growing FAST ENOUGH. THANK GOD the CEO of the Greater Richmond Partnership -- the city's chief economic development mover and shaker in terms of business recruitment (which means residential recruitment as well) has that same opinion and she also has publicly stated that Richmond isn't growing fast enough. We need to pick up the pace to stay with our "peers" who are -- quite unfortunately -- pulling away from us and leaving us in the dust.

With humble apologies - the overemphasis on preservation, architecture, charm, character, aesthetics - just ain't gonna get it done. Those days - I hope and pray - are LONG behind us - because those things are nothing short of iron shackles that have done little more than severely hold this city back for at least five decades, if not a lot longer.  

And just so you know - I am a historian by trade (my bourgeoning back-half-of-life career - it's what I went to grad school for) and I say this. Enough with the so-called "history". We have plenty - PLENTY - of well-preserved neighborhoods. We don't need more. And again, I am a historian and I say that.

LET MY CITY GROW!!!

[plain]

There's way more better buildings in the city than that little thing, it won't be missed. The serious buildings and homes are protected and won't be going anywhere.

[Virginian11]

I think he’s got to be trolling us 

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, Virginian11 said:

I think he’s got to be trolling us 

I had wondered about that, actually! 

[ronsmytheiii]

4 hours ago, I miss RVA said:

I had wondered about that, actually! 

1. No I was not trolling

2. in general I support development, and especially In Shockoe Bottom. There are way too many empty lots and derelict buildings.

3. Sometimes people who support development will differ on individual projects. In this case I actually support the new development, all I said it was a "shame" that the nice brick work would go.

4. I want the city to grow as well, but after living in Norfolk I am weary of the “just bulldoze it and  build something better” approach. The city did that during urban renewal, and it has taken decades to restore something urban downtown, with mostly characterless rapidly built buildings. If someone back then had taken the time to save a few more buildings, might have had a better bedrock to build off of.

So before just unloading on someone, maybe appreciate they might have a different take on something specific rather than just lumping them in a giant group?

Edited August 31, 2022 by ronsmytheiii

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, ronsmytheiii said:

1. No I was not trolling

2. You need to calm down

3. in general I support development, and especially In Shockoe Bottom. There are way too many empty lots and derelict buildings.

4. Sometimes people who support development will differ on individual projects.

5. I want the city to grow as well, but after living in Norfolk I am weary of the “just bulldoze it and  build something better” approach. The city did that during urban renewal, and it has taken decades to restore something urban downtown, with mostly characterless rapidly built buildings. If someone back then had taken the time to save a few more buildings, might have had a better bedrock to build off of.

So before just unloading on someone, maybe appreciate they might have a different take on something specific rather than just lumping them in a giant group?

Hey - brother - chill out, man! It would appear that I'm far from the one who needs to "calm down" (and as others on here will tell you, expecting me to be dispassionate about RVA is a huge mistake - so don't even go there, my friend! )

First, I was being facetious in my response (and wink) about the trolling. And I offered my pushback to your posts with full measure of respect, as any and all who read the posts will attest. Just because someone pushes back does not mean they are unloading on you.

Want to know something? You and I most likely are in 100% agreement on portions of your position - particularly if you find and read a few of my rants (YES - RANTS!!!) about the abomination that was what happened to Fulton Bottom, where the Richmond Redevelopment and Housing Authority basically bulldozed the ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOOD, lock, stock and barrel, into the James in the spirit of the "urban renewal movement" that was all the vogue in the '60s and '70s and that had significantly ramped up across the country in the wake of the rampant and unwarranted destruction of (in many cases legitimately historic) predominantly minority legacy neighborhoods in central cities to make way for the interstate highway system. I'm old enough to remember what Fulton looked like BEFORE the RRHA all but nuked it in 1970 and completely erased it from the Richmond map - and then left it for dead for the better part of the final decades of the 20th century. So even until today - some 52 years after Fulton was destroyed - I still seethe about what happened to what was at the time Richmond's OLDEST and, arguably, MOST historic neighborhood. And my biggest question (which has NEVER - EVER been answered) is this: for all the so-called "preservationists" who were picking hills to die on when it came to saving every paving brick on Monument Avenue or every old house in the Fan or other neighborhoods or short-circuiting new development because of "character" or "charm" or "architecture" or "aesthetics"... WHERE WERE THEY WHEN FULTON WAS DESTROYED? 

Don't get me started on this topic. 

Either way - please -- kindly -- re-read my responses to you - notice I say in several places that I DO see, understand, and respect where you are coming from. I'm NOT slamming you. I am, however, slamming the mindset that you were promulgating -- and that is the preservationist mindset that I have personally witnessed hold this city back from becoming all she could be and SHOULD HAVE ALREADY BECOME 30, 40, 50 years ago. I am NOT at all in favor of shackling the city with draconian ideologies about aethetics or charm or character or architecture-uber alles, because I DO see those ideologies as little more than unnecessary constraints ("iron shackles", if you will) that have had a detrimental impact on Richmond outside of where they are REASONABLY implemented. We have plenty of history already and those old neighborhoods have been appropriately preserved and they will always be part of the city (and never once have I EVER opposed REASONABLE preservation in Jackson Ward, Church Hill, the Fan, Carytown, etc.)

So relax, my friend - and enjoy the debate and conversation! I have no quarrel with you at all. My quarrel is with the preservationist mindset - and I can assure you (as folks in this community will attest), I ABSOLUTELY WILL push back and at times I will push back HARD - and I make no apologies for it. In the spirit of community and friendship, I would urge you not to view pushback as a personal attack. It's not meant as such.

Edited September 1, 2022 by I miss RVA

[Virginian11]

2 hours ago, ronsmytheiii said:

1. No I was not trolling

2. in general I support development, and especially In Shockoe Bottom. There are way too many empty lots and derelict buildings.

3. Sometimes people who support development will differ on individual projects. In this case I actually support the new development, all I said it was a "shame" that the nice brick work would go.

4. I want the city to grow as well, but after living in Norfolk I am weary of the “just bulldoze it and  build something better” approach. The city did that during urban renewal, and it has taken decades to restore something urban downtown, with mostly characterless rapidly built buildings. If someone back then had taken the time to save a few more buildings, might have had a better bedrock to build off of.

So before just unloading on someone, maybe appreciate they might have a different take on something specific rather than just lumping them in a giant group?

 

I kid, I kid.  We’re all friends here - we appreciate your stance!  

Edited September 1, 2022 by Virginian11

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, Virginian11 said:

 

I kid, I kid.  We’re all friends here - we appreciate your stance!  

100% agreed! 

[ancientcarpenter]

14 hours ago, ronsmytheiii said:

“just bulldoze it and  build something better” approach

 

Love this.

If I wanted to live in a suburban version of downtown I'd move to Charlotte. 

I love that RVAs character is engrained with preservation. Destroying something out of convenience to build generic 5story apartments isn't going to create a city with character...it's just going to give people boxes to sleep in.

 

I'm in the same boat... let's encourage development but not at the cost of deleting history.

Or better yet, let's build monuments of these torn down buildings so that we don't forget the history! sarcasm sorrrrry

Edited September 1, 2022 by ancientcarpenter