Queens Park

[kermit]

I know we have long discussed the potential for a new park over the NS rail yard along N Tryon and there have been some UNCC Urban Design projects which have done some blue sky renderings of the park. There has also been a well-organized effort to make this park a reality for about a year now:  https://www.queensparkclt.org/    We have discussed all of these things here before (and the Observer and Agenda reported on it last November), but some things have happened behind the scenes recently that make me think this project is now worthy of its own thread. 

The organization has been around for a while and appears has some money behind it, an executive director, a media relations team and directors from several large urban design firms. Speculative designs on the park have been progressing over the past year and I have heard that developer / financier interest has  increased recently.

In addition to progress on the design aspects of the project, I hear the organization has gotten the interest of some very prominent people in town (who have been heavily involved in Uptown's redevelopment). More importantly, I have heard from more than one source that NS is open to market-rate offers for the property.  As you can tell from the second rendering, the preliminary designs include plenty of office space to make the land purchase plus creating a massive park feasible. The fact that most of this land is in an opportunity zone has also peaked the interest of some potential players.

Don't interpret this as saying this will definitely happen, but I think there is enough momentum behind the project now that I think its worth keeping a closer eye on this.

Edited October 24, 2020 by kermit

[Norm2]

I could imagine that this potential park would be a catalyst for possible residential or apartment towers around it by the light rail

[Blue_Devil]

45 minutes ago, norm21499 said:

I could imagine that this potential park would be a catalyst for possible residential or apartment towers around it by the light rail

I would imagine you are correct. I would also think the park, if it were to happen, would get dramatically rezoned around the edges

[queensguy06]

Nothing really of substance to add, but thought I'd share some of my anecdotal experiences.

I live right next to City Park in Denver currently, and it's a great area - I always think, "Charlotte needs a City Park."  At 330 acres, it's bordered by residential on three sides with a ranging mix of old two story row houses from as early as 1880s,  new apartments and lofts, high rise condos, and larger estate homes.  On the fourth side it is bordered by the Nature and Science Museum, the Denver Zoo, and a municipal golf course.  It's always active (unless it's snowing) and they even have a boat house where you can rent little swan paddle boats on the lake.

And while housing prices are pretty inflated in Denver as a whole, being close to downtown right next to the park it's rather insane.  I looked up one of the 2 story row houses that was built in 1887 - needs quite a bit a work and they still want about $600K for it.  The high rise condos available start just under $1 million.  Here are some photos I took on my walk with my little dog just the other day (the last two photos are not mine and from the web):

 

[kermit]

I'll add a couple of small points to what I see omitted from the initial sketches:

First, the Norfolk Southern main lines (at least two tracks, perhaps 3 if the passenger bypass gets built) will remain and will be relatively busy. Second, the CATS North Yard will certainly remain. Given CATS stumbles with connecting the Blue and Silver lines I wonder if there are some opportunities for rethinking the connection and/or yard layout in the context of the proposed park  (although I am not sure what those could be).

While the possibility of a signature park is great, it will always suffer from some connectivity and boundary issues due to active tracks that will run on all sides (NS to West, CATS to East, CSX to South and Sugar Creek to North)

Edited October 24, 2020 by kermit

[Norm2]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

I'll add a couple of small points to what I see left out of the initial sketches:

First, the Norfolk Southern main lines (at least two tracks, perhaps 3 if the passenger bypass gets built) will remain and will be relatively busy. Second, the CATS North Yard will certainly remain. Given CATS stumbles with connecting the Blue and Silver lines I wonder if there are some opportunities for rethinking the connection and/or yard layout in the context of the proposed park  (although I am not sure what those could be).

While the possibility of a signature park is great, it will always suffer from some connectivity and boundary issues due to active tracks that will run on all sides (NS to West, CATS to East, CSX to South and Sugar Creek to North)

Could always build the park over any existing rail lines if that is possible

[kermit]

30 minutes ago, norm21499 said:

Could always build the park over any existing rail lines if that is possible

Yes, but current elevations make that difficult. The CATS tracks are significantly higher than Brevard North of 23rd st and much of N Tryon. There is never a space where the tracks run lower than street level.  The NS bridge over N Tryon also makes it virtually impossible to trench those tracks.

Edited October 23, 2020 by kermit

[Norm2]

1 minute ago, kermit said:

Yes, but current elevations make that difficult. The CATS tracks are significantly higher than Brevard North of 23rd st and much of N Tryon. There is never a space where the tracks run lower than street level.  

Well that is..... inconvenient lol

[Desert Power]

11 hours ago, kermit said:

More importantly, I have heard from more than one source that NS is open to market-rate offers for the property.  As you can tell from the second rendering, the preliminary designs include plenty of office space to make the land purchase plus creating a massive park feasible. The fact that most of this land is in an opportunity zone has also peaked the interest of many potential players.

This is a key paragraph. Hearing that NS is open is actually fantastic news. I think there will actually end up being more development than is shown in that rendering, but that is OK and desirable.  This should be integrated along the cross Charlotte trail which would connect to to Cordelia Park as well.

There is potential for a really transformational project here. Brevard and Tryon must be better connected to better serve those communities west of Tryon.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Desert Power

[RANYC]

Denver looks stunning.  

[kermit]

So, based on our lack of news, this project has really died, along with the remainder of the city's wider ambition to do anything other than 'muddeling through.'

Anyway, there is some relevant news from Atlanta. A large portion of Tilford Yard in Atlanta (a former CSX yard on the NW side of downtown) just sold to a data center company for $1.7 million per acre (55 acres total for $94.1 million). Since Tilford is bounded on one side by the much larger NS Inman yard (which is not going away) and is less centrally located in Atlanta this sale may set a floor valuation for the land beneath the potential Queens Park.

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2023/03/22/tilford-yard-data-center-project.html

Edited March 26, 2023 by kermit

[kayman]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

So, based on our lack of news, this project has really died, along with the remainder of the city's wider ambition to do anything other than 'muddling through.'

Anyway, there is some relevant news from Atlanta. A large portion of Tilford Yard in Atlanta (a former CSX yard on the NW side of downtown) just sold to a data center company for $1.7 million per acre (55 acres total for $94.1 million). Since Tilford is bounded on one side by the much larger NS Inman yard (which is not going away) this land sets a bit of a floor valuation for potential Queens Park land.

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2023/03/22/tilford-yard-data-center-project.html

I'm not surprised as I worked on the due diligence preliminary work on the now-sold of the CSX Tilford Yard. Norfolk-Southern is stubborn.  They (N-S) have refused anything in Georgia. North Carolina is in the same boat with N-S on  decommissioned rail yards.

Queens Park might have to be truncated to the proposed 12-14-acre Cullman Avenue park concept being developed right now by Mecklenburg County Parks & Recreation.  https://charlotte.axios.com/310152/a-new-park-bigger-than-romare-bearden-is-proposed-for-noda/

However, the Friends of Queens Park are pursuing expansion of the above park concept into a larger, 37-acre regional park that would be expanded over time. 

https://charlotte.axios.com/313950/nonprofit-proposes-a-37-acre-signature-park-for-charlotte/

Edited March 22, 2023 by kayman

[JRCLT]

N-S has just been a pain all over. Terrible company.

[kermit]

18 hours ago, JeanClt said:

N-S has just been a pain all over. Terrible company.

I am not sure I would say NS is behaving badly with this issue. They need a Charlotte yard and they have never suggested it is for sale.

Up until around 10-20 years ago NS was know as the railroad that was run by Civil Engineers rather than business guys (CSX was the opposite). The tracks were always in top notch condition, they planned effectively for their (freight carrying) future, and spent more money on maintenance than many institutional shareholders wanted.  Over the past 10 years they have changed by fully embracing precision scheduled railroading and maintenance has taken a back seat to shareholder return. I suspect they know exactly how much the Charlotte yard is worth, both in terms of real estate and operationally. I would not be surprised if they have a location for a new Charlotte-area yard (in Gaston) picked out (I also would not be surprised if they were willing to sell about 60% of the Charlotte yard to a market rate bidder even without a replacement).   Even if NS were to make the land available, its a tough location for a park. The Blue Line tracks and the NS main tracks are going to remain as the North and South boundaries to any potential park space no matter what so park access will be very limited.

Edited March 26, 2023 by kermit

[KJHburg]

NS not in any of lifetimes will ever consider selling this yard.  Too important to their service.  Our efforts need to move to expanding the park  planned at Philemon and   36th St and continuing the buildout of the greenway system.  

[kayman]

I would even go further and recommend that Charlotte cheat off my home city Birmingham's paper and replicate its Railroad Park concept. 

https://www.railroadpark.org/about.html

It's a centerpiece of a regional greenway system being developed there along its waterways

Edited March 26, 2023 by kayman