Richmond Resort & Casino

[eandslee]

10 hours ago, I miss RVA said:

I'm with you - my interest really flagged aver the Pamunkey plan got jettisoned. I was really disappointed that the city tossed them to the side so quickly, especially when they were the first to the plate. Mind you, I don't know all the ins-and-outs and particulars about these things - but I was roundly disappointed that the Pamunkey didn't even make the first cut.

Despite this though, I have to admit, their plan was vague and pretty "vanilla" compared to the other proposals.  Plus, they have no experience running a casino.  Probably would have been one of my first cuts too.

[Icetera]

On 4/17/2021 at 7:11 PM, Brent114 said:

I’m mostly indifferent about the casinos but will vote no if the location is Scott’s Addition.   It will most defiantly siphon business from SA and won’t do anything to make the area more attractive for other businesses.   The Bally’s and Urban One sites won’t detract from the local businesses around them (because their locations aren't already destinations).  I like the Bally’s location better because it is the most isolated site. It’s also the most attractive design and setting, IMO.

And here I am the reverse, which bodes well for Bally's.  As a local customer, I may frequent the Live! location more so due to its proximity to other businesses, especially if they do keep the theatre as now in discussion (not sure if structure itself though).  The Bally's site I may check out once in a while.  Neither of these come off as road side attractions so they just need connectivity rather than also high visibility as they would be expected destinations.  Casino ONE, on the other hand, represents the low-quality concerns that wealthy residents are bringing up about the other two.  If it did not have a radio media conglomerate pushing it then it would truly need the highway visibility.  If Casino ONE is the choice, I would vote 'NO.'

I really would like to see Richmond break out of the attitude that we are just a bedroom community with a beautiful yard and an alcohol dependency.  While its great watching all of this residential development we also need more reasons to spend money in the city.  With the Meals Tax increase, I have cut so much spending at restaurants and breweries.  With the loss of the coliseum, I find I travel more to DC for shows and events (pre-pandemic obviously).  Even the vast majority of my shopping is in the counties.  The things I do enjoy in the city, such as the river and parks, cost nothing so I am essentially taking money from Richmond and sending it elsewhere when I would love to spend it here.  While that is a lot of "I"s, I know this is not just me.  High Speed Rail and more connectivity at RIC is only going to make spending money elsewhere easier.  If the vote is no casino (unlikely) or Casino ONE, then I will be budgeting for some trips to Norfolk (I will certainly visit it occasional regardless) and enjoying dining along Granby Street.  Once again, money leaving Richmond.

 

[I miss RVA]

On 4/19/2021 at 8:59 AM, Icetera said:

And here I am the reverse, which bodes well for Bally's.  As a local customer, I may frequent the Live! location more so due to its proximity to other businesses, especially if they do keep the theatre as now in discussion (not sure if structure itself though).  The Bally's site I may check out once in a while.  Neither of these come off as road side attractions so they just need connectivity rather than also high visibility as they would be expected destinations.  Casino ONE, on the other hand, represents the low-quality concerns that wealthy residents are bringing up about the other two.  If it did not have a radio media conglomerate pushing it then it would truly need the highway visibility.  If Casino ONE is the choice, I would vote 'NO.'

I really would like to see Richmond break out of the attitude that we are just a bedroom community with a beautiful yard and an alcohol dependency.  While its great watching all of this residential development we also need more reasons to spend money in the city.  With the Meals Tax increase, I have cut so much spending at restaurants and breweries.  With the loss of the coliseum, I find I travel more to DC for shows and events (pre-pandemic obviously).  Even the vast majority of my shopping is in the counties.  The things I do enjoy in the city, such as the river and parks, cost nothing so I am essentially taking money from Richmond and sending it elsewhere when I would love to spend it here.  While that is a lot of "I"s, I know this is not just me.  High Speed Rail and more connectivity at RIC is only going to make spending money elsewhere easier.  If the vote is no casino (unlikely) or Casino ONE, then I will be budgeting for some trips to Norfolk (I will certainly visit it occasional regardless) and enjoying dining along Granby Street.  Once again, money leaving Richmond.

 

Very well said.  Both in general and in specificity. Hopefully we really don't have the mindset of being a bedroom community - but if so, we need to kibosh that and quickly. Richmond needs to hold the mindset of being a go-to/destination city and metro area. What you said, Icetera, I think sums up a lot of the problems that have plagued Richmond for decades - particularly as other communities are more than happy to throw off the yoke of the past and embrace moving forward into the future. I wish I knew how we shake this city and get it to wake up! I don't think it's happening with this (casino) situation.

Edited April 20, 2021 by I miss RVA

[Brent114]

I can’t even tell you what the meals tax rate  is, it’s such a non issue. I also can’t remember a time that I spent any money at all in Henrico or Chesterfield. Regardless of where a casino ends up, I can say with certainty that I’ll never visit it (don’t have any problem with gambling, just not interested at all and none of these proposals are offering any “wow” factor so there’s nothing to miss... I will drive by the site to look at construction though!). 
 

  None of the locations will generate any activity beyond their parking lots.  I like the idea of attracting out of town money but there probably won’t be much of that anyway.  NC folks will go to Danville.  Tidewater folks will go to Norfolk and NOVA folks will go to National Harbor (so Norfolk shouldn’t expect NC or Central VA business and Danville shouldn’t expect Central Va business). I’d be more excited about making Scott’s Addition tacky if the casino were to be a regional draw.  A casino 80-100 miles in every direction pretty much assures that it won’t be.  So put it out in the woods away from businesses it could potentially ruin. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Brent114

[Icetera]

15 hours ago, Brent114 said:

I can’t even tell you what the meals tax rate  is, it’s such a non issue. I also can’t remember a time that I spent any money at all in Henrico or Chesterfield.

That is great that you did not notice an increase to an already high tax, but the restaurants certainly noticed and more importantly the county patrons did as well.  Personally, with friends coming into the city less frequently to eat out or go to events, my city meals spending dropped 29% (pre pandemic).  It would be great if a new revenue source could help cut down that  burden on the restaurant industry or at least remove the prior "temporary" tax for the Performing Arts Center.  Unfortunately, we know that will never happen.

15 hours ago, Brent114 said:

I like the idea of attracting out of town money but there probably won’t be much of that anyway.  NC folks will go to Danville.  Tidewater folks will go to Norfolk and NOVA folks will go to National Harbor (so Norfolk shouldn’t expect NC or Central VA business and Danville shouldn’t expect Central Va business). I’d be more excited about making Scott’s Addition tacky if the casino were to be a regional draw.  A casino 80-100 miles in every direction pretty much assures that it won’t be.  So put it out in the woods away from businesses it could potentially ruin. 

Two of the casino proposals are on the Chesterfield border and one is not far from the Henrico border.  Even if they somehow pulled only from within a couple miles, half of it would be "out of town money" from Richmond's perspective.  North Carolina is a long state, so unless Danville has a superior product, then I cannot imagine residents in Eastern North Carolina going there versus Norfolk/Portsmouth or even Richmond for some.

Unpopular opinion, Scott's Addition is already tacky (but I still love it) and it would be a real shame for Live! to detract from the character of the historic Richard's Rendezvous across the street.  It is great that the Broad Street corridor is transitioning to high density residential, but that is because it is still cheap underdeveloped land that they can charge a premium to  young renters who want to be in close proximity of an entertainment district.  Adding more entertainment options is not going to ruin that.  At best, a giant RFP for the property north of the tracks is going to create an inorganic West Broad Village feel.

[vaceltic]

24 minutes ago, Icetera said:

That is great that you did not notice an increase to an already high tax, but the restaurants certainly noticed and more importantly the county patrons did as well.  Personally, with friends coming into the city less frequently to eat out or go to events, my city meals spending dropped 29% (pre pandemic).  It would be great if a new revenue source could help cut down that  burden on the restaurant industry or at least remove the prior "temporary" tax for the Performing Arts Center.  Unfortunately, we know that will never happen.

Two of the casino proposals are on the Chesterfield border and one is not far from the Henrico border.  Even if they somehow pulled only from within a couple miles, half of it would be "out of town money" from Richmond's perspective.  North Carolina is a long state, so unless Danville has a superior product, then I cannot imagine residents in Eastern North Carolina going there versus Norfolk/Portsmouth or even Richmond for some.

Unpopular opinion, Scott's Addition is already tacky (but I still love it) and it would be a real shame for Live! to detract from the character of the historic Richard's Rendezvous across the street.  It is great that the Broad Street corridor is transitioning to high density residential, but that is because it is still cheap underdeveloped land that they can charge a premium to  young renters who want to be in close proximity of an entertainment district.  Adding more entertainment options is not going to ruin that.  At best, a giant RFP for the property north of the tracks is going to create an inorganic West Broad Village feel.

Why bother visiting a casino if you’re admitting price sensitivity to the richmond city meals tax?

[Icetera]

10 minutes ago, vaceltic said:

Why bother visiting a casino if you’re admitting price sensitivity to the richmond city meals tax?

I am simply providing examples and the effects I have noticed and I will advocate for things that may not be of interest to myself but are to others.   I can tell you from the perspective of restaurant owners and county dwellers that the comparably higher tax rate does have an effect.  It does not add any value to the dining experience while discouraging county residents from spending money here when they can find comparable options for less.  It used to be easy to entice my suburban friends into the city for events at the coliseum and unique dining/drinking options.  Now, there is no arena and they can save 7.5% by going to one of the many Richmond restaurant satellite locations in the counties.  Richmond is not at a point where it is self-sufficient and we need to bring money in from the surrounding counties to support the parks and infrastructure we love.  The resort casino adds additional amenities that are unique in the metro, even if it were to not attract visitors from outside of it.  Let's keep that money here rather than send it to Danville, Norfolk, or Washington.

[eandslee]

Well, Bally’s is now out!  It’s heating up...or the fix is in:

https://www.virginiabusiness.com/article/breaking-city-of-richmond-cuts-ballys-from-casino-consideration/

[rjp212]

One will ultimately be the  one. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by rjp212

[wrldcoupe4]

That’s too bad I liked the Bally’s concept. 

[Icetera]

1 hour ago, rjp212 said:

One will ultimately be the  one. 

Makes you wonder if this process was all for show.

[wrldcoupe4]

If they won, why would the fix be in and this all for show? That's quite an accusation to suggest a corrupt process. My preferred option wasn't selected but I am having trouble logically making such a leap.

Edited April 21, 2021 by wrldcoupe4
typo

[Icetera]

9 minutes ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

If they won, why would the fix be in and this all for show? That's quite an accusation to suggest a corrupt process. My preferred option wasn't selected but I am having trouble logically making such a leap.

I had come around a lot of comments and information at the beginning of the proposals suggesting that Colonial Downs had been the one to push for a casino in Richmond prior to the legislation.  Pamunkey apparently popped up later.  Similarly, Cordish had been pushing in Norfolk but they lost out.  Every city that had been included in the legislation had already been in talks with organizations, hence the odd selection and seemingly quick proposals.  Only Danville and Richmond opened up to other opportunities.  Peninsula Pacific Entertainment even setup a Richmond office, but that could be either due to confidence or a logical choice with so many Rosie's locations and need for proximity to the state capital.

[I miss RVA]

4 hours ago, rjp212 said:

One will ultimately be the  one. 

I agree. One will be The One.

3 hours ago, Icetera said:

Makes you wonder if this process was all for show.

That's a VERY valid point, Icetera.  I would hope that wasn't/isn't the case - but still, one wonders.

Edited April 21, 2021 by I miss RVA

[Lukepf]

I have been lurking in the background while this has all played out, however it has seemed clear to me all along that the only proposal with a chance is Urban One. Richmond has simply become too poltitcaly motivated to chose any other option. This is very disappointing because the One proposal seemingly has no hype or excitement around it, at least not with anyone that I know or converse with on a regular basis. Most of the other proposals have been big flashy projects in prominent locations with a big name backing it (Bally's for example). Having a big name casino operator come to Richmond would surely drum up hype and excitement. I am afraid that the One proposal will move forward and bring absolutely nothing to the table for Richmond, and that would be far worse in the long run than any problem that anyone has come up with for most of the other proposals.

[I miss RVA]

30 minutes ago, Lukepf said:

I am afraid that the One proposal will move forward and bring absolutely nothing to the table for Richmond, and that would be far worse in the long run than any problem that anyone has come up with for most of the other proposals.

I 100% agree. Very well said.

[DowntownCoruscant]

Bally’s location sucked, and One is promising a ton of stuff the others haven’t (at least that’s how it seems).

[RVA-Is-The-Best]

Ngl, I hope Cordish wins, the Urban One location is so out of the way and does nothing for the non urban environment around it, just will bring people in their cars and then back onto the highway. At least a SA location would encourage people to use the bus and spend tax dollars at some of the restaurants in town if they come in. And the location is already fairly industrial that it's removed from any residential development, and tbh the Urban One proposal is just so underwhelming with its oodles of surface parking and maybe that's the root of my dislike for that one

A SA casino would contribute to a critical mass of activity in that area and truly represent the mixed use ethos of that neighborhood, what with a ballpark, movie theater and museums all within a few blocks. Couple that with all the residential west of Arthur Ashe Blvd and the whole stretch of Broad/Leigh becomes denser and livelier

Edited April 22, 2021 by RVA-Is-The-Best

[eandslee]

Well, apparently Urban One was allowed to modify their plan a bit and now, instead of building only a 150-room hotel, they are planning to build a 250-room hotel which will cost them an additional $83M.  Their total project cost now matches that of Cordish at $600M.  
 

Is this fair to do?  Were the other proposals allowed to modify their plans?  I don’t think so.  Things that make you go, hmmmmm (great song by the way).  
 

https://richmondbizsense.com/2021/04/22/ballys-misses-out-on-casino-sweepstakes-as-city-narrows-field-to-two/

Edited April 22, 2021 by eandslee

[vaceltic]

33 minutes ago, eandslee said:

Well, apparently Urban One was allowed to modify their plan a bit and now, instead of building only a 150-room hotel, they are planning to build a 250-room hotel which will cost them an additional $83M.  Their total project cost now matches that of Cordish at $600M.  
 

Is this fair to do?  Were the other proposals allowed to modify their plans?  I don’t think so.  Things that make you go, hmmmmm (great song by the way).  
 

https://richmondbizsense.com/2021/04/22/ballys-misses-out-on-casino-sweepstakes-as-city-narrows-field-to-two/

Yes the others were. Mostly just Higher cash commitments. And don’t forget that Bally’s tweaked the highway ingress/egress circulation plans in response to traffic concerns.

[wrldcoupe4]

You guys see the updated renderings for the Pamunkey casino in Norfolk?

[Icetera]

1 hour ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

You guys see the updated renderings for the Pamunkey casino in Norfolk?

That one really makes me wonder what the Pamunkey would have really done here with that latest rendering.  The investment cost always came off as too low for the size of that tower considering the casino floor should be most of the expense.  Somehow they had the largest tower, largest gaming floor and yet half the cost of other proposals?

Regardless, I think the design is fine and hopefully it will be high quality like Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods.  Both of them started smaller and kept growing.

3 hours ago, eandslee said:

Well, apparently Urban One was allowed to modify their plan a bit and now, instead of building only a 150-room hotel, they are planning to build a 250-room hotel which will cost them an additional $83M.  Their total project cost now matches that of Cordish at $600M.  
 

Is this fair to do?  Were the other proposals allowed to modify their plans?  I don’t think so.  Things that make you go, hmmmmm (great song by the way).  

This was certainly allowable and should be expected, just as Live! may include the movie theater now. 

The part I find suspicious is that somehow adding 100 rooms (no suites reported) magically increases the investment to exactly what Cordish is offering.  Casino ONE had half the excepted jobs (1,500 vs 3,000) and half the over all project square footage (950k sq/ft vs 1,900k sq/ft), despite using a ridiculous amount of land.  That places the cost at $830k per room, making the total hotel room cost $208 mil, excluding lobby and services that would have been included in prior estimates.  For comparison, the entire Pamunkey resort was only $350 mil with 50 more rooms (once again, I doubt their numbers).  The Richmond Marriot has 408 rooms and 5 suites and is only valued around $40 mil. (obviously not entirely comparable).  Live! still has 20 more rooms plus 30 suites located in an area where the hotel can be utilized beyond the casino.  They also clearly have a higher investment in the overall project compared to One's glorified Walmart (still a step up from their current K-Mart location).


Source: https://www.fixr.com/costs/build-hotel

[Icetera]

Here is the updated statistics for the proposals State-wide, based on what I can find.  Though it has not made news, I see that Live! has also upped the ante by adding $35 mil to their investment plus an additional $200 mil. payment to the city.

I have to admit, the ONE's hotel portion is looking a lot better (estimate 260') and actually has some presence from I-95.  Unfortunately, the rest of the project still looks like a very tacky suburban mall.


https://onecasinoresort.com/project/
https://www.richmondlive.com/project-overview

[eandslee]

3 hours ago, Icetera said:

This was certainly allowable and should be expected, just as Live! may include the movie theater now. 

The part I find suspicious is that somehow adding 100 rooms (no suites reported) magically increases the investment to exactly what Cordish is offering.  Casino ONE had half the excepted jobs (1,500 vs 3,000) and half the over all project square footage (950k sq/ft vs 1,900k sq/ft), despite using a ridiculous amount of land.  That places the cost at $830k per room, making the total hotel room cost $208 mil, excluding lobby and services that would have been included in prior estimates.  For comparison, the entire Pamunkey resort was only $350 mil with 50 more rooms (once again, I doubt their numbers).  The Richmond Marriot has 408 rooms and 5 suites and is only valued around $40 mil. (obviously not entirely comparable).  Live! still has 20 more rooms plus 30 suites located in an area where the hotel can be utilized beyond the casino.  They also clearly have a higher investment in the overall project compared to One's glorified Walmart (still a step up from their current K-Mart location).
 

Thanks guys for keeping me straight on this.  I had forgotten about some of the points you all brought up regarding changes that have been made to the proposals (apparently, I have some memory lapses from time to time).  Regardless, I still think that Urban One will win this, which is why I think they had to up the ante on the number of hotel rooms (which is an area they were lacking in comparison).  I also think the game floor area they proposed was smaller than the other proposals (will that increase too?).  Finally, I agree that despite the height increase on the hotel tower, the development still looks like a giant strip mall with a sea of surface parking - ugh!  If this is the proposal that will get selected, I'd like to see them make even more changes to their proposal that will make this development more attractive.  For one, I'm not digging the location at all (who wants to spend leisure time around a Dupont Factory, right next to a cigarette factory and a cargo port across the street /I-95?).  Then, there is their lack of experience running such a casino.  Colonial Downs and Rosie's are not on the same level as something like this.  They have no experience and that worries me.

[vaceltic]

4 minutes ago, eandslee said:

Thanks guys for keeping me straight on this.  I had forgotten about some of the points you all brought up regarding changes that have been made to the proposals (apparently, I have some memory lapses from time to time).  Regardless, I still think that Urban One will win this, which is why I think they had to up the ante on the number of hotel rooms (which is an area they were lacking in comparison).  I also think the game floor area they proposed was smaller than the other proposals (will that increase too?).  Finally, I agree that despite the height increase on the hotel tower, the development still looks like a giant strip mall with a sea of surface parking - ugh!  If this is the proposal that will get selected, I'd like to see them make even more changes to their proposal that will make this development more attractive.  For one, I'm not digging the location at all (who wants to spend leisure time around a Dupont Factory, right next to a cigarette factory and a cargo port across the street /I-95?).  Then, there is their lack of experience running such a casino.  Colonial Downs and Rosie's are not on the same level as something like this.  They have no experience and that worries me.

Your assumption about no casino experience is wrong.

https://www.p2e.com/

Edited April 22, 2021 by vaceltic