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4 minutes ago, eandslee said:

Thanks guys for keeping me straight on this.  I had forgotten about some of the points you all brought up regarding changes that have been made to the proposals (apparently, I have some memory lapses from time to time).  Regardless, I still think that Urban One will win this, which is why I think they had to up the ante on the number of hotel rooms (which is an area they were lacking in comparison).  I also think the game floor area they proposed was smaller than the other proposals (will that increase too?).  Finally, I agree that despite the height increase on the hotel tower, the development still looks like a giant strip mall with a sea of surface parking - ugh!  If this is the proposal that will get selected, I'd like to see them make even more changes to their proposal that will make this development more attractive.  For one, I'm not digging the location at all (who wants to spend leisure time around a Dupont Factory, right next to a cigarette factory and a cargo port across the street /I-95?).  Then, there is their lack of experience running such a casino.  Colonial Downs and Rosie's are not on the same level as something like this.  They have no experience and that worries me.

Your assumption about no casino experience is wrong.

https://www.p2e.com/

Edited by vaceltic
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I’m with eandslee on this the location absolutely horrible who wants to go to a casino in the middle of a DuPont factory and Phillip Morris or an industrial site regardless. Urban one will flop within two to three years. Richmond couldn’t pick a worse proposal then the urban one but apparently likes to pick the worst of the worst with so many things that’s proposed. I wish caesars or hard rock had been in Richmond instead of Danville or Bristol where those currently are. I’m just very disappointed in the urban one proposal and I’m disappointed in how it seems to be the best option. I think we can do way better than that one. It disappoints me how Richmond will not reach for the stars. Although I should know by now Richmond never fails to disappoint me when something nice comes along. 

Edited by Downtowner
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21 hours ago, eandslee said:

Great!  I'm open to being educated.  I did not know any of this.  Thanks for pointing this out.  I guess I can cross out that concern.

Your concern is not completely unwarranted as their experience is comparatively lacking, but it does exist.  Peninsula Pacific Entertainment (P2E) (https://www.p2e.com/locations) has only recently developed one casino del Lago Resort & Casino (Waterloo, NY) while cooperatively operating a second, smaller Hard Rock Hotel & Casino Sioux City.  P2E did just recently buy out the remaining 50% share from the original Hard Rock developer: Warner Gaming.  They also recently bought DiamondJacks (Bossier City, LA) but have been unable to get it up and running again (not their own fault).

Ballys (https://www.ballys.com/our-properties/) operates 13 casino properties of varying sizes and styles, but all were acquisitions.  Richmond would have been their first new build.  Of note, this Bally's (formerly Twin River) is a separate company from the known Las Vegas Bally's Casino that is actually owned by Caesar's Entertainment.

Cordish  (https://cordish.com/portfolio) actually has by far the best experience, having actually developed five casinos while retaining ownership and operations of three.  They also have numerous other event and hospitality developments.
 

image.png.239bd949986018a73379a7e08a672ddf.png
 

Peninsula Pacific Entertainment
Developed, Owned, & Operated:
https://dellagoresort.com/

Owned & Operated:
https://www.hardrockcasinosiouxcity.com/
https://www.casino.org/news/diamondjacks-casino-in-louisiana-closes-permanently-due-to-covid-19/
 

image.thumb.png.98b4e3b2d57d654441757393d20980e8.png

Cordish
Developed, Owned, & Operated:
https://cordish.com/portfolio/live-casino-hotel-maryland
https://cordish.com/portfolio/live-casino-hotel-philadelphia
https://cordish.com/portfolio/live-casino-pittsburgh

Developed:
https://cordish.com/portfolio/seminole-hard-rock-hotel-and-casino-hollywood
https://cordish.com/portfolio/seminole-hard-rock-hotel-and-casino-tampa

Edited by Icetera
Fixed unfinished sentence
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10 hours ago, vaceltic said:

Yup, sounds like Cordish had some deals with Norfolk much like Colonial Downs had allegedly been working on here.  While Cordish does not seem to have the best history with Waterside, if that deal did exist, then they should sue.  Regardless, I am glad to see Pamunkey being selected there even if the tower seems to have tipped over.

image.png.5829b3087ab96805beed727b721cc741.png
 

10 hours ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

That reminded me - when is Cordish going to complete Riverside on the James? They still own the empty hydro plant. 16 years on now. 

No kidding as I was just thinking that while there last night.  When they developed they were likely buying into the idea of the Canal Walk taking off.  Unfortunately, Toad's Place never survived down there so I doubt Cordish can ever get an event space like they planned going.  No one foresaw Scott's Addition becoming the entertainment hub back then.

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Interesting nugget from this RichmondFreePress article:

http://richmondfreepress.com/news/2021/apr/22/casino-contenders-now-down-2-ballys-out/

"Sources have told the Free Press that Cordish, a real estate development company, likes the site and would consider its development even if it loses the casino bid. The sources also said the company is eager to become the master developer for the city’s 60-acre parcel where The Diamond baseball stadium stands. The city is planning to issue a request for proposals this year."

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1 hour ago, vaceltic said:

Interesting nugget from this RichmondFreePress article:

http://richmondfreepress.com/news/2021/apr/22/casino-contenders-now-down-2-ballys-out/

"Sources have told the Free Press that Cordish, a real estate development company, likes the site and would consider its development even if it loses the casino bid. The sources also said the company is eager to become the master developer for the city’s 60-acre parcel where The Diamond baseball stadium stands. The city is planning to issue a request for proposals this year."

Interesting and good play by Cordish as this scenario would be the worst case outcome for Scott's Addition businesses and area residents, but the best for the city overall.

This means, according to the fears of those against the casino, that the location still gets the big chain restaurants to siphon off local businesses and the peak traffic generation from the event venues.   Patrons going to events can still just eat and drink in the complex, then go home afterwards.  Without the casino portion, there is no new regional draw to the area and no program to encourage patronizing area businesses.  Meanwhile, the locomotive factory is still razed.  Since the zoning is TOD-1, with exception of the least conflicting portion, the hotel, they can do this by right (unfortunately, without the casino patronage, I am sure Cordish would downgrade the hotel).

At the other end of town, casino patrons can drive to Casino ONE, stay there, spend money, and then go home.  The couple local businesses that are allowed to operate in the facility will get a nice boost since patrons are trapped.  With Casino ONE eating up the majority of developable land on the Richmond side, Chesterfield will likely gain some new hotels to catch the patrons that cannot afford the on site 4 Diamond hotel.

For us, assuming no downgrade from Cordish, we get to watch two new 20+ floor hotels instead of one. :)

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6 hours ago, eandslee said:

Looks like all the NIMBYs will be out again this morning against the Cordish Live! Casino. :rolleyes:

https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/residents-plan-protest-against-proposed-casino-location-in-scotts-addition/

Big surprise, it looks like the opposition is being led by our favorite Fan NIMBY, Jonathan Marcus!!  His group is the one fighting the zoning changes along Broad.
 

Quote

Longtime resident of The Fan Jonathan Marcus also fears a casino would hurt the community, and he claims nine out of the `18 neighborhoods in the area have released statements against the proposal, including the Fan District Association and Historic West Grace Center.

“The opposition to this proposal has been that broad and that deep," said Marcus. "The traffic alone, there’s a lot of talk about development on Arthur Ashe boulevard between here and I-95. That alone is going to overwhelm the street, but a casino, which is designed to bring in thousands of people on weekends, doesn’t fit with the traffic program."

Meanwhile, the actual Scotts Addition business association's official stance is non-opposition.
 

Quote

But not everyone is against the plans for Live Casino & Hotel Richmond. Over the weekend, the Scott's Addition Boulevard Association released a statement explaining they will be taking a position of non-opposition after a 10-9 split vote.


https://www.wtvr.com/news/local-news/no-casino-rally

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8 hours ago, eandslee said:

Looks like all the NIMBYs will be out again this morning against the Cordish Live! Casino. /forums/uploads/emoticons/default_rolleyes.gif

https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/residents-plan-protest-against-proposed-casino-location-in-scotts-addition/

And this quote follows the exact same ridiculous and worn-out trope that NIMBYs have been using to stop progress and development in the city for decades.

“We believe the site is inconsistent with the type of Richmond we want to be known for,” one organizer wrote. “We are proud of our world class food and beer scene, the James River, and our rich architectural landscape.”

"Inconsistent with the type of Richmond" -- What does that even mean? What "type of Richmond?" A time-capsule of a Richmond that once was and can never be again? That's just plain and simple utter nonsense.

"... we want to be known for"  We? We who? You? Sorry, NIMB's - you don't represent the entirety of this city. There are many of us who want to see this city grow, thrive and move several notches up in becoming a top-tier city.

"... our rich architectural landscape." Again, what does this mean? This is a total non sequitur. Exactly HOW does a casino and a 20-something story hotel up by the Acca bridge somehow 'defile' or 'desecrate' the precious architecture of the Fan? This trope is such BS it defies understanding. It's the same garbage they use to oppose much-needed upzoning along Broad Street. And this trope has been a go-to that NIMBYs have used to - at worst - block, at best - oppose - projects that could/would have pushed Richmond forward for decades.

I have no problem with folks opposing this location. Personally, it gives me some pause for several reasons. HOWEVER - if it were selected (which I'm sure it won't be), I would in all likelihood support it - even though I think this kind of development would be FAR better situated just a few hundred yards to the north, on the other side of the Acca bridge.

4 hours ago, vaceltic said:

Interesting nugget from this RichmondFreePress article:

http://richmondfreepress.com/news/2021/apr/22/casino-contenders-now-down-2-ballys-out/

"Sources have told the Free Press that Cordish, a real estate development company, likes the site and would consider its development even if it loses the casino bid. The sources also said the company is eager to become the master developer for the city’s 60-acre parcel where The Diamond baseball stadium stands. The city is planning to issue a request for proposals this year."

Does this feel as if the Cordish folks already 'know' the outcome? Does this seem like a play to get the city to select them - or is Cordish sending some kind of signal that they intend to play ball without the casino?

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19 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

Does this feel as if the Cordish folks already 'know' the outcome? Does this seem like a play to get the city to select them - or is Cordish sending some kind of signal that they intend to play ball without the casino?

Cordish wants to get into the hot real estate market around Scotts Addition, regardless of what they end up winning or not winning the Casino.

Its an interesting proposition should Cordish become the master developer there. They will for sure be bringing their high-rent chain restaurant and retail establishments into a city that is fiercely loyal to small, independent businesses. They’re gonna need all the out-of-towers they can draw for something they build there to be successful. A large event space with programming independent of the summer baseball season is probably in the cards.

 

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27 minutes ago, vaceltic said:

Cordish wants to get into the hot real estate market around Scotts Addition, regardless of what they end up winning or not winning the Casino.

Its an interesting proposition should Cordish become the master developer there. They will for sure be bringing their high-rent chain restaurant and retail establishments into a city that is fiercely loyal to small, independent businesses. They’re gonna need all the out-of-towers they can draw for something they build there to be successful. A large event space with programming independent of the summer baseball season is probably in the cards.

 

From the standpoint of Cordish entering the fray in Scott's Addition - if they don't get the casino - but still put a development at Arthur Ashe Boulevard and W. Leigh - say, instead of a 20-something story hotel, they put a 17-story facility and built some kind of event space that's just not a casino - does that change the calculus at all regarding their presence in Scott's? Or will all the NIMBY's STILL kvetch about them even being there? If the big push-back is the casino - and if economic development is supposedly 'supported' in some fashion by the NIMBYs - will they just shift their outcry to oppose ANYTHING Cordish might plan to build there?

Absent a casino - how does a large hotel and some kind of entertainment or events venue impact the roll that Scott's Addition has been on for the last couple of years?

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28 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

From the standpoint of Cordish entering the fray in Scott's Addition - if they don't get the casino - but still put a development at Arthur Ashe Boulevard and W. Leigh - say, instead of a 20-something story hotel, they put a 17-story facility and built some kind of event space that's just not a casino - does that change the calculus at all regarding their presence in Scott's? Or will all the NIMBY's STILL kvetch about them even being there? If the big push-back is the casino - and if economic development is supposedly 'supported' in some fashion by the NIMBYs - will they just shift their outcry to oppose ANYTHING Cordish might plan to build there?

Absent a casino - how does a large hotel and some kind of entertainment or events venue impact the roll that Scott's Addition has been on for the last couple of years?

I am curious about who opposes as well.  I just saw the news coverage with the dozen or so "resident protesters" and noted that I saw at least 3 of them at the Bally's meetings.  While there they had claimed to be from Bon Air, so clearly they are opposed to a casino in general, regardless of location.

Personally, I have been more enthusiastic about the event spaces that Cordish was adding, which seems to be the highlight of their projects, with or without a casino.  Having a facility larger than Broadberry that dumps directly into the neighborhood seems like a good thing to me, even if it brings additional national competition.

Regardless of if Cordish builds a casino or not, the Diamond area will ultimately attract national chains.  Which side of the tracks is less significant as the Richmond 300 aims to bridge the gap.  Whether Cordish builds that bridge or someone else, Scott's Addition will become connected to future big players.

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On 4/19/2021 at 9:59 AM, Icetera said:

And here I am the reverse, which bodes well for Bally's.  As a local customer, I may frequent the Live! location more so due to its proximity to other businesses, especially if they do keep the theatre as now in discussion (not sure if structure itself though).  The Bally's site I may check out once in a while.  Neither of these come off as road side attractions so they just need connectivity rather than also high visibility as they would be expected destinations.  Casino ONE, on the other hand, represents the low-quality concerns that wealthy residents are bringing up about the other two.  If it did not have a radio media conglomerate pushing it then it would truly need the highway visibility.  If Casino ONE is the choice, I would vote 'NO.'

I really would like to see Richmond break out of the attitude that we are just a bedroom community with a beautiful yard and an alcohol dependency.  While its great watching all of this residential development we also need more reasons to spend money in the city.  With the Meals Tax increase, I have cut so much spending at restaurants and breweries.  With the loss of the coliseum, I find I travel more to DC for shows and events (pre-pandemic obviously).  Even the vast majority of my shopping is in the counties.  The things I do enjoy in the city, such as the river and parks, cost nothing so I am essentially taking money from Richmond and sending it elsewhere when I would love to spend it here.  While that is a lot of "I"s, I know this is not just me.  High Speed Rail and more connectivity at RIC is only going to make spending money elsewhere easier.  If the vote is no casino (unlikely) or Casino ONE, then I will be budgeting for some trips to Norfolk (I will certainly visit it occasional regardless) and enjoying dining along Granby Street.  Once again, money leaving Richmond.

 

While you do have a point, I'm rooting for Casino ONE for 2 primary reasons.

1.  Radio ONE is an Television/Entertainment Conglomerate. Like Cordish, they want to use the Casino set-up for further investments into the city from a production stand point. Virginia is a  producer's paradise (music/movies) and Richmond is often in mix of it with little to no recognition AT ALL. Doing this could open up another revenue stream for the city and region to benefit from (i.e.= Tourism, Real Estate, etc). A burgeoning entertainment sector with a cosign from Radio One could open and expand Richmond's doors to the rest of the nation and international audiences as a competitive market. Potential is there.

2. If Casino ONE is successful, the landscape and real estate around that area will change for the better. Richmond WILL make an initiative to revamp the 8th district if they pulled this off.  What could be a considered a loss for the surrounding districts could considered a gain for 8th with the purpose of using as a catalyst to bring interest to Commerece Rd. corridor. All I need for them to do rework their renderings ( IMJ).

P.S-  In replacement of The Coliseum,  could an aquarium or aquatic-entertainment Complex  work in this city? I know Virginia Beach has theirs, but their set up is different from ours with the ocean/zip line park as their huge benefactor .  Also, it seems as if their aquarium is used for family-focused/educational purposes? But ours could be for leisure somehow. Like the Aqua-Dome in Berlin Germany.

spacer.png

 

Also, converting 6th Street Marketplace into a set-up similar to Louisville's 5th Street Live ....

spacer.pngspacer.png

  or maybe our own Seattle Needle-attraction?

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16 hours ago, eandslee said:

I am a bit confused on why they have the rooftop portion primarily angled Southwest vs Northeast.  Rather than orienting toward the City and Upper James it will have a view of DuPont and the Port of Richmond.  This is the first that I have seen a pool area, which was a disappointing omission before, but how is the smell down there?  I know Phillip Morris on the Northern side is very noticeable coming down I-95 but how about also Dupont and the Spruance Plant?  While fine for gambling and shows, I am not sure how appealing this area will be for outdoor activities.

While looking at the Spruance Plant in Google street-view (from May 2019) I found this well placed cargo container amusing.image.thumb.png.6c1a77be3bf8551ae1b212867cbd76d3.png

 

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4 hours ago, Icetera said:

I am a bit confused on why they have the rooftop portion primarily angled Southwest vs Northeast.  Rather than orienting toward the City and Upper James it will have a view of DuPont and the Port of Richmond.  This is the first that I have seen a pool area, which was a disappointing omission before, but how is the smell down there?  I know Phillip Morris on the Northern side is very noticeable coming down I-95 but how about also Dupont and the Spruance Plant?  While fine for gambling and shows, I am not sure how appealing this area will be for outdoor activities.

While looking at the Spruance Plant in Google street-view (from May 2019) I found this well placed cargo container amusing.image.thumb.png.6c1a77be3bf8551ae1b212867cbd76d3.png

 

My dad worked at the Spruance Plant for 30+ years and fwiw never complimented the scenery or smell.

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Upon seeing the recent changes/upgrades to the UrbanOne proposal there is one thing in particular that comes to mind-bait and switch. I feel like this is something that happens in Richmond often with the larger scale projects. I have a feeling that they are bulking up their proposal to make themselves appear as the front runner, but when it comes time to build they will scale back due to "not enough demand", or "economic instability". I hope I am wrong about this, but as I have mentioned before, I have a really hard time getting behind the UrbanOne proposal.

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That’s fair…. Just curious though… Why do you not feel the same about the Cordish proposal? How did the hydro plant building turn out at riverside on the james? How is their Hampton power plant project? How is waterside in Norfolk? Did any underachieve or scale back? 

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11 hours ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

That’s fair…. Just curious though… Why do you not feel the same about the Cordish proposal? How did the hydro plant building turn out at riverside on the james? How is their Hampton power plant project? How is waterside in Norfolk? Did any underachieve or scale back?

Cordish could absolutely pull the old bait and switch as well, but their proposal has remained consistent throughout the process. What always throws a red flag for me is when a proposal scales up late in the game. Also, I have been to both Waterside and their Hampton Power Plant redevelopments and they are both great IMO. Waterside was especially a major improvement downtown Norfolk as it brought life back to a massive building full of potential that basically sat empty for years. However, I did not follow these projects too closely so I am not able to speak on whether or not they delivered exactly what they had proposed.

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14 hours ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

That’s fair…. Just curious though… Why do you not feel the same about the Cordish proposal? How did the hydro plant building turn out at riverside on the james? How is their Hampton power plant project? How is waterside in Norfolk? Did any underachieve or scale back? 

We know that Riverside on the James cutback the condo portion form 14 stories to 10 and the power plant event space has never been utilized expect for a Ted Talk.  Granted, this also occurred just before the recession and the the Lady Bird Hat Factory building down the canal also failed to maintain as an event venue.  The hydro plant is going to be a difficult space to repurpose (office is not looking great) and unfortunately it is not an area that took off in the direction everyone was hoping for.  Cordish picking a hot neighborhood after the disappointments on the canal seems like a good move on their part.

Norfolk board has plenty of complaints about Waterside underachieving.

 

2 hours ago, Lukepf said:

Cordish could absolutely pull the old bait and switch as well, but their proposal has remained consistent throughout the process.

This is a good point that brings some unrealized comfort.  It also helps that it matches many of their existing projects even if that makes it less unique.

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1 hour ago, Icetera said:

We know that Riverside on the James cutback the condo portion form 14 stories to 10 and the power plant event space has never been utilized expect for a Ted Talk. 

I remember very well when this happened.  I was so disappointed because, not only did they decrease the number of floors/height of that building, but they opted to also get rid of the more ornate cornice at the top.  Now, it looks drab in comparison - a HUGE disappointment.  Bet they wished they had not done that today!

Wish I could find an old rendering, but I can't seem to find one on the web.  Hmm....

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