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17 minutes ago, eandslee said:

Just saw an RTD headline that there might be another referendum for a Casino in Richmond.  Someone who can get behind the paywall needs to read it and provide us an explanation.  Would love to know what they're talking about.  Apparently, there is a survey and petition circulating to do just that.

Looks like Trammel is running a petition for a potential new referendum while P2E/UrbanOne is likely running a survey.  The Ukrops are reported to have been a big donor to the anti-casino PAC.

Meanwhile Morrissey  is still pushing for Petersburg, with Mayor Parham's backing,  but that would most certainly require State action.

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Richmond City Councilwoman Reva Trammell says she is collecting signatures for a petition asking the city to hold another referendum for the $565 million casino resort that had been proposed in her Southside 8th district.

The petition drive and survey circulating by phone and automated text messages has led some political observers and casino opponents to speculate whether the project's backers are assessing how they can improve public messaging to win the popular vote in Richmond rather than 25 minutes south of the state capital on I-95.

Quote

"Clearly they think that with slightly different messaging, they would have the opportunity to win if it came again," said Bob Holsworth, a veteran political analyst and former Virginia Commonwealth University dean. "They're exploring whether they would have a better chance of it passing if they redo the messaging with a stronger focus on challenges to the city's budget."

It's unclear who is circulating the survey. It is untitled and does not provide any additional information upon completion. Urban One, the national media conglomerate behind the Richmond casino proposal, did not deny involvement in the survey, but declined to answer questions Wednesday through its public relations office.

Holsworth, one of the recipients of the survey texts, said he's unsure who made it, but that it appears a "well-heeled" organization would prefer a casino in Richmond based on how the questions are framed.

https://richmond.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/another-richmond-casino-referendum-a-survey-and-petition-are-circulating-to-do-just-that/article_015c817d-7453-5bd2-ae3a-41182317a2e8.html

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10 minutes ago, Icetera said:

Looks like Trammel is running a petition for a potential new referendum while P2E/UrbanOne is likely running a survey.  The Ukrops are reported to have been a big donor to the anti-casino PAC.

Meanwhile Morrissey  is still pushing for Petersburg, with Mayor Parham's backing,  but that would most certainly require State action.

https://richmond.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/another-richmond-casino-referendum-a-survey-and-petition-are-circulating-to-do-just-that/article_015c817d-7453-5bd2-ae3a-41182317a2e8.html

Thanks for posting the run-down here.  Definitely something to keep our eye on.  This might get very interesting...or go nowhere at all.  Thanks again @Icetera!

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1 minute ago, Icetera said:

Looks like Trammel is running a petition for a potential new referendum while P2E/UrbanOne is likely running a survey.  The Ukrops are reported to have been a big donor to the anti-casino PAC.

Meanwhile Morrissey  is still pushing for Petersburg, with Mayor Parham's backing,  but that would most certainly require State action.

https://richmond.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/another-richmond-casino-referendum-a-survey-and-petition-are-circulating-to-do-just-that/article_015c817d-7453-5bd2-ae3a-41182317a2e8.html

It seemed like the opposite of what companies and advertising firms historically did in regard to the black community, either disregarding them or just having no idea how to engage with them. Only with the casino it was a black company that didn't know how to engage with white people.  They certainly spent enough on advertising, not like they weren't trying.  They either thought they could get this done purely relying on black voters, or just had no idea how to appeal to white people, and that clearly showed in the results of the referendum along racial lines.  

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2 hours ago, Icetera said:

The Ukrops are reported to have been a big donor to the anti-casino PAC.

 

Interesting. I'm curious to know what their big opposition to a casino would be (such that they would provide financial muscle in fighting it) other than perhaps their own specific moral grounds?

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On 12/2/2021 at 8:40 PM, I miss RVA said:

Interesting. I'm curious to know what their big opposition to a casino would be (such that they would provide financial muscle in fighting it) other than perhaps their own specific moral grounds?

They weren’t invited to be involved in the process of receiving any revenue or financial investments. Therefore if they cant have it, neither can Richmond. That’s a dangerous  mentality that will jeopardize the city in the long run economically.

Edited by DalWill
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2 hours ago, DalWill said:

They weren’t invited to be involved in the process of receiving any revenue or financial investments. Therefore if they cant have it, neither can Richmond. That’s a dangerous  mentality that will jeopardize the city in the long run economically.

Unfortunately, this mindset has been around RVA for decades - and not just the big money families that stand to profit off of big developments such as this. Case in point: the city council of the late '70s and into the 80s -- particularly under Henry Marsh's watch -- was infamous for kiboshing projects that didn't directly benefit or involve developers, businesses, etc., based on specific socio-economic and racial divisions in the city. Yes - there absolutely was justification in encouraging greater involvement and participation of certain portions of the city's population, be it citizenry or businesses - but the council went too far, to the point of choosing THAT particular hill to die on at the city's expense. @DalWill-- as you said - if they can't have it, neither can Richmond. Far too many projects basically got tabled out of existence because the council kept haggling on these points. As I recall, the hotel across Canal Street from the new Dominion Tower nearly didn't get built because of this. And what was called Project One at 6th and Broad became SO ridiculously watered down because of council's constant infighting and delay. The rancor and animus on the council in those days was beyond toxic. Progress essentially ground to a halt and the city as a whole suffered for it.

Unfortunately, this mindset - whether promulgated by the city government or private, big-money families/businesses - is nothing new in Richmond. And if you're right about this regarding the casino, it's blatantly obvious it hasn't changed and isn't going to change anytime soon.

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  • 1 month later...

Looks like there is possibility that RVA may vote again for a casino:

https://www.nbc12.com/2022/01/20/richmond-city-councilors-attempt-revive-one-casino-resort-plans/

https://richmondbizsense.com/2022/01/21/double-or-nothing-richmond-city-council-weighs-casino-vote-do-over/

 

I voted no but now seeing that either we get a casino or Petersburg does makes me think twice about it. In my view, casinos are a negative to the surrounding area. On one hand, I don't want a minority neighborhood getting affected by a casino in RVA but on the other hand I also don't want an entire city of Petersburg getting affected by a casino, especially as it desperately tries to grow.

In this case, I may be a vote of yes for the casino... as I'd want RVA to get the tax dollars with the casino that is inevitable in the area (RVA vs Petersburg). Joe Morrissey has really put some of us in a tough position, well played political move. 

 

I do also wish that we could first vote on a site and then we get developers' bids. Having the site and developer as a package doesn't seem proper and smells bad to me. I'm sure the other two casinos would love to build on the southside location that was "won" be One Casino. 

Edited by ancientcarpenter
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1 hour ago, CitiWalker said:

Here is the thing....I said this once before. From a common sense perspective gambling is already in  every corner of Richmond in the form of Virginia Lottery Products. So throw the morality argument out of the window. If it was solely about gambling then why aren't  these groups pushing to eradicate the  VA  Lottery.  Unfortunately the elephant in the room is about the suppression of black economic empowerment . For those not familiar with Jackson Ward ( one of the most prolific black economic communities in America during the 1920s  thru 1940s) look up the history of it's demise and  dismemberment. It is more about the suppression of black economic growth and empowerment. The city has a history of disruption when it comes to this. You essential want to deny  an area of the city (which the majority of those who live in the southside want there) the opportunity to provide economic opportunity and to be a catalyst for further development.  It boils down to controlling black economics.  It is not a pleasant thing to discuss but the only way to improve on conditions is to speak to truth. Richmond citizens have a habit of shooting themselves in the foot then screaming ouch! It is not so much the ineptness of the city council but the ineptness of some of the residents of the city to adapt to change. 

 

From someone who owns property in Jackson Ward and is VERY involved in the Historic Jackson Ward Association and the community itself, I don't think sticking a casino in Jackson Ward would be a good idea for the community. Ditto for the southside area. 

This being somehow wrapped up in "black economic empowerment" really slaps in the face of black economic empowerment.

 

Black communities: "We want equal rights to vote, better schools, healthcare, transit, less crime"

Capitalism: "Best we can do is stick a casino in your neighborhood and flood you with a $5million dollar campaign to convince you it's going to be great! Good luck! Maybe we throw a few tax dollars your way here and there...we promise..."

 

Again, like I said, I was against the casino but now seeing that either Petersburg gets it or we get it in RVA, I think it would have less of an impact on minorities in southside RVA than it would in Petersburg. And yes, there are some tax benefits for overall RVA that I'd like to selfishly keep here since now we are in a tough position w/Petersburg getting casino if RVA doesn't.

This mental gymnastics to how a casino is about black economic empowerment is quite a slap in the face and does nothing but push me back to the fence on this casino vote.

I'm sorry but this really heats me up as I didn't get maced by RPD marching for Black Lives Matter for someone to pull a "black empowerment = casino" and try to profit by siphoning from minority neighborhoods under the guise of "black owned casino!" - people have caught on to the tricks.

Just be straight forward: "We want a casino and it will help overall RVA as a city. X percentage is for schools. Y will be our guaranteed city cut. We will bring Z number of jobs, etc. And hey, it's black owned so that's a plus."

But to push this black economic empowerment campaign just basically says "you people are so dumb we can try to convince you this is good for your back yard! Don't worry at the fact that the non-minority neighborhoods voted against it in their backyard... they're just being silly over there, they don't know what's good for them *wink wink*"

 

I've said my peace and I don't want to create a debate for this so I won't reply any longer. Just feel like someone here needs to standup against the grain of the love of the casino that is pushed here. I can't imagine how much more love the casino would get if it was 80 stories tall :tw_joy: - I'm sorry, I had to!

Edited by ancientcarpenter
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7 minutes ago, ancientcarpenter said:

But to push this black economic empowerment campaign just basically says "you people are so dumb we can try to convince you this is good for your back yard! Don't worry at the fact that the non-minority neighborhoods voted against it in their backyard... they're just being silly over there, they don't know what's good for them *wink wink*"

Considering that the neighbors you are referring to DID overwhelmingly vote YES, I am not sure how to read this statement.  There is no need to convince them now as they were already convinced.

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6 minutes ago, Icetera said:

Considering that the neighbors you are referring to DID overwhelmingly vote YES, I am not sure how to read this statement.  There is no need to convince them now as they were already convinced.

But that falls into my argument of the very expensive and deceptive $5million advertising campaign that was targeted at them.

 

Same as how many people in Appalachia highly benefit from medicaid, medicare, and obamacare but strongly vote for politicians who cut those benefits from them. Swaying people to vote against their interests and benefits is the trick of the trade.

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I only enjoy introducing concepts like 'racial empowerment'  and 'equity' into this not because they are my own concepts but because they've been cluttering up rational dialogue for the last 2 years. Now to see the disciples of this dialogue not even adhering to their own gospel needs to be called out. 

 I still think it's dumb we are voting on this so I default yes - in reality my position is more classically liberal - while we have gambling in some forms vis a vis the lottery allowed i don't like granting a monopoly to a single entity for table games and the like. So be it - gambling is still for the most part illegal - I'll take a casino in this illiberal environment as it might be all we get for a long time- additonally,   i think it provides a good base, momentum for further liberalization of the market.

The only 'No' vote argument that spoke to me was a progressive one  that followed me that far, that disliked the single entity environment as a handout to a corporation as insane when gambling privately in one's own home is illegal. or that small players are crowded out of the opportunity. True - i just had a different take on how to begin peeling that back but I will say this argument was rare i only heard it from one individual in the 'No' camp. Most of it was non-sensical obsession with 'exploitation' and like that has been discussed.

Edited by whw53
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I voted yes and I kind of hope they redo the vote so we can get it. As others have pointed out ridiculous that the people in that area wanted it but the people not in that area told them they couldn't have it. Then add on Petersburg will end up getting it, so Richmond still ends up with much of the negative but none of the positive (tax revenue we desperately need). Will be another classic Richmond fail, almost as bad as Navy Hill/Green City.

 

That being said it's bad governance to hold a vote on something then if you don't like the outcome just try to hold another until you get the result you want.

Edited by 123fakestreet
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Heh, this  casino revote reminds me of Virginia Beach and light rail. Certain politicians didnt like the original vote in support of it and called for a referendum that ended up ending it. Generally, I would go with "we voted and the people responded, move on" and wait a decade before any revote.

I will also admit that I strongly opposed the casino. The issue with the "destination" developments like casinos is that any visitors they bring in mostly stay on the property and dont go out and interact with the local businesses. The jobs they bring are mostly hospitality oriented, and in places like Virginia Beach where I grew up the jobs weren't filled by locals. It might be offset by increased taxes, however if you incentivized the developer with tax breaks to come to the city you have essentially undone that.

 

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2 hours ago, ronsmytheiii said:

Heh, this  casino revote reminds me of Virginia Beach and light rail. Certain politicians didnt like the original vote in support of it and called for a referendum that ended up ending it. Generally, I would go with "we voted and the people responded, move on" and wait a decade before any revote.

I will also admit that I strongly opposed the casino. The issue with the "destination" developments like casinos is that any visitors they bring in mostly stay on the property and dont go out and interact with the local businesses. The jobs they bring are mostly hospitality oriented, and in places like Virginia Beach where I grew up the jobs weren't filled by locals. It might be offset by increased taxes, however if you incentivized the developer with tax breaks to come to the city you have essentially undone that.

 

Good point that hospitality jobs are often filled by non locals. Kings Dominion employs a lot of people but half of them are summer work programs for Eastern European kids from working class families. That being said I don't think that would be the case for the casino, at least not a majority. Housekeeping, maybe. Dealers, etc need excellent English and also make more money. 

Your other point, that out of towers don't do much else when they visit is also mostly true, but not 100%, some will stop and do other things, the ones who don't even if they just stop at a gas station that's some additional sales tax. The thing is any money they do spend at all is new money, outside money coming in to the city which is a big win. Because a casino would attract mostly all out of towers. Even if they are just from chesterfield.

And that's the really big win for the city. It's almost all outside money coming in that otherwise would not have been spent here. And even if it's all at the casino, it's sales tax, it's food tax, it's lodging tax (which is super high), it's the gambling tax. Its the massive one time fee (100 million?) to the city to get the license. I see that as all nearly 100% new money pouring in from outside the city into our coffers. Huge win with almost no downside- if the casino fails the company losing money, the city isn't out anything. 

Which brings me to my last point- you note the city incentives the developer. We often do, but we aren't in this case. In fact they want to build it so bad they are incentivizing the city with various charitably donations etc.

Edited by 123fakestreet
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On 1/21/2022 at 10:38 AM, ancientcarpenter said:

From someone who owns property in Jackson Ward and is VERY involved in the Historic Jackson Ward Association and the community itself, I don't think sticking a casino in Jackson Ward would be a good idea for the community. Ditto for the southside area. 

This being somehow wrapped up in "black economic empowerment" really slaps in the face of black economic empowerment.

 

Black communities: "We want equal rights to vote, better schools, healthcare, transit, less crime"

Capitalism: "Best we can do is stick a casino in your neighborhood and flood you with a $5million dollar campaign to convince you it's going to be great! Good luck! Maybe we throw a few tax dollars your way here and there...we promise..."

 

Again, like I said, I was against the casino but now seeing that either Petersburg gets it or we get it in RVA, I think it would have less of an impact on minorities in southside RVA than it would in Petersburg. And yes, there are some tax benefits for overall RVA that I'd like to selfishly keep here since now we are in a tough position w/Petersburg getting casino if RVA doesn't.

This mental gymnastics to how a casino is about black economic empowerment is quite a slap in the face and does nothing but push me back to the fence on this casino vote.

I'm sorry but this really heats me up as I didn't get maced by RPD marching for Black Lives Matter for someone to pull a "black empowerment = casino" and try to profit by siphoning from minority neighborhoods under the guise of "black owned casino!" - people have caught on to the tricks.

Just be straight forward: "We want a casino and it will help overall RVA as a city. X percentage is for schools. Y will be our guaranteed city cut. We will bring Z number of jobs, etc. And hey, it's black owned so that's a plus."

But to push this black economic empowerment campaign just basically says "you people are so dumb we can try to convince you this is good for your back yard! Don't worry at the fact that the non-minority neighborhoods voted against it in their backyard... they're just being silly over there, they don't know what's good for them *wink wink*"

 

I've said my peace and I don't want to create a debate for this so I won't reply any longer. Just feel like someone here needs to standup against the grain of the love of the casino that is pushed here. I can't imagine how much more love the casino would get if it was 80 stories tall :tw_joy: - I'm sorry, I had to!

As someone who grew up in Jackson Ward...yes... I can speak to black  economic empowerment. Whether you are building an apple stand or corporate office the One Casino will still be a black owned entity. Speaking of Jackson Ward, no one is trying to put a casino in that neighborhood makes no logistical sense. There are more pressing social issues within that community.No one seems to want to talk about job creation though. Something that is need within your own community to be honest. I sincerely hope that since you own property there will be some sort of effort to push for affordable housing .You know the history of Jackson Ward so it puzzles me why you would make such an uneducated statement. By the way I am educated and do have a degree in Urban Studies. I have read the proposal and it is more than just gambling. My thought is that you all that talk about gambling and immortality are not attacking the Virginia Lottery as fervently . And here is the notion my friend, whenever Black people do something it is always downplayed as being insignificant or meaningless. The statement you made about black people being dumb because they don't know any better just proves my point about other groups thinking they know what is best for black people. Like we are not educated or we don't know how to do independent research, or we are incapable of analysis or complex thoughts. Look at the neighborhood you are in for example. It was destroyed because everyone thought they know what's best for the city. Forget about the prosperous black community.  Forget about what black people thought and  cared about. No one attacks THE VIRGINIA LOTTERY....oh yeah black folk don't  own that.  No one attacks the VIRGINIA ABC...black fold don't own that. No one attacks the new marijuana dispensaries...black folk don't own that. Please dispense with the moral high horse when you have state and private owned entities by many peoples standards promote immorality. If you really read the proposal and understood it in its entirety then  I think you would laugh at yourself for making such an il-avdivised statement. I grew up in public housing and was able to educate myself and own my own property and pay my taxes. I have had to deal with people who think like you my entire life. My opinion ( although I am educated) comes from plain ole common sense. I since I did grow up from a perspective of the streets I can smell BS a mile away.  I will continue to speak to the social and economic inequities in this city and country.  Maybe if people had jobs they would not be as desperate to certain things. Apparently some people don't understand cause and effect. 

Edited by CitiWalker
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3 minutes ago, CitiWalker said:

As someone who grew up in Jackson Ward...yes... I can speak to black  economic empowerment. Whether you are building an apple stand or corporate office the One Casino will still be a black owned entity. Speaking of Jackson Ward, no one is trying to put a casino in that neighborhood makes no logistical sense. There are more pressing social issues within that community.No one seems to want to talk about job creation though. Something that is need within your own community to be honest. I sincerely hope that since you own property there will be some sort of effort to push for affordable housing .You know the history of Jackson Ward so it puzzles me why you would make such an uneducated statement. By the way I am educated and do have a degree in Urban Studies. I have read the proposal and it is more than just gambling. My thought is that you all that talk about gambling and immortality are not attacking the Virginia Lottery as fervently . And here is the notion my friend, whenever Black people do something it is always downplayed as being insignificant or meaningless. The statement you made about black people being dumb because they don't know any better just proves my point about other groups thinking they know what is best for black people. Like we are not educated or we don't know how to do independent research, or we are incapable of analysis or complex thoughts. Look at the neighborhood you are in for example. It was destroyed because everyone thought they know what's best for the city. Forget about the prosperous black community.  Forget about what black people thought and  cared about. No one attacks THE VIRGINIA LOTTERY....oh yeah black folk don't  own that.  No one attacks the VIRGINIA ABC...black fold don't own that. No one attacks the new marijuana dispensaries...black folk don't own that. Please dispense with the moral high horse when you have state and private owned entities by many peoples standards promote immorality. If you really read the proposal and understood it in its entirety then  I think you would laugh at yourself for making such an il-avdivised statement.

This casino is also going to be high end resort style, not a likely a place where poor people go and blow their rent. That's Rosie's and we already have a couple of them, which BTW no one batted an eye about.  The moral opposition to a casino seems to be 100% coming from people who've never been to one in their lives, and reeks of refer madness style ridiculous fear mongering. 

It's also the typical Richmond NIMBY mindset of just wanting to be angry and rally around something. So they're going to defeat this proposal that will have almost no affect on them, and then think they achieved something. "Yay, we won. What did we win?"  Who knows? Smug satisfaction?  It's a very entitled mindset I see in politics where it's just a team sport to them. So they can feel nice in a victory, meanwhile people who's lives are actually effected by it lose out.

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