Diamond Area / Hermitage Rd Corridor / Ownby District

[whw53]

BizSense with the deets! (as the kids no longer say).

https://richmondbizsense.com/2021/08/18/53m-mixed-use-project-proposed-for-cobb-lumber-site-off-hermitage-road/

Funny I also sent an email to the same contact at Cobb Lumber yesterday asking for information. Only said a sale is pending.

Darn it seems my brick building is slated for demolition- too bad, it would've tied in well with southern stove/todd lofts.

Sent from my SM-A125U1 using Tapatalk

[Icetera]

2 hours ago, whw53 said:

Darn it seems my brick building is slated for demolition- too bad, it would've tied in well with southern stove/todd lofts.

Agreed, that would have made for a nice transition.

[RiverYuppy]

I would have liked to see the building rehabbed, but a $53m mixed-use building right there is amazing.  It really sets down a stake on the other side of the train tracks as a place to be rather than fringe city apartments.

I'm hoping between this area and the Chamberlayne/VUU area we'll start to see some Manchester level development.  They're sandwiched between Battery/Ginter Park, Seminary, Bellevue, The Fan, and Scott's Addition.  So with all the development going in them, and the established neighborhoods surrounding them, I think they are primed to blow up.  I would really love to see an anchor project that draws people from the surrounding neighborhoods into it.  Especially something that would generally draw people out of the city, like a Target, Best Buy, WalMart, etc. 

I know big box stores aren't sexy like mixed use SA developments, but I think one being placed in the city would really be a sign of Richmond shifting even more away from being a commuter city.  I think the Diamond or Chamberlayne areas are central to a lot, starting to develop, and still have easy developable land for such a project.

Edited August 18, 2021 by RiverYuppy

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, RiverYuppy said:

I would have liked to see the building rehabbed, but a $53m mixed-use building right there is amazing.  It really sets down a stake on the other side of the train tracks as a place to be rather than fringe city apartments.

I'm hoping between this area and the Chamberlayne/VUU area we'll start to see some Manchester level development.  They're sandwiched between Battery/Ginter Park, Seminary, Bellevue, The Fan, and Scott's Addition.  So with all the development going in them, and the established neighborhoods surrounding them, I think they are primed to blow up.  I would really love to see an anchor project that draws people from the surrounding neighborhoods into it.  Especially something that would generally draw people out of the city, like a Target, Best Buy, WalMart, etc. 

I know big box stores aren't sexy like mixed use SA developments, but I think one being placed in the city would really be a sign of Richmond shifting even more away from being a commuter city.  I think the Diamond or Chamberlayne areas are central to a lot, starting to develop, and still have easy developable land for such a project.

Very well said - and I fully agree on all fronts, ESPECIALLY the desire to see some Manchester-level development there.

Where there is TOD-1 zoning, I hope developers will take full advantage of it and go vertical and we'll start to see some 12-story buildings rising there. Outside of the TOD-1 (well, inside it too) some dense 6-8 story apartment buildings as well. And I agree - a big box, a Target, Best Buy, Wallyworld, etc., would go quite well there. I've seen those stores very nicely integrated into burgeoning, dense urban neighborhoods in Chicago, proving it can be done. The key is doing it right. Proximity to public transit is always a big plus (the CTA being nearby really helps those stores here) - and it's preferable than a sea of parking lots surrounding a big, square retail island.

Edited August 18, 2021 by I miss RVA

[123fakestreet]

2 hours ago, RiverYuppy said:

I would have liked to see the building rehabbed, but a $53m mixed-use building right there is amazing.  It really sets down a stake on the other side of the train tracks as a place to be rather than fringe city apartments.

I'm hoping between this area and the Chamberlayne/VUU area we'll start to see some Manchester level development.  They're sandwiched between Battery/Ginter Park, Seminary, Bellevue, The Fan, and Scott's Addition.  So with all the development going in them, and the established neighborhoods surrounding them, I think they are primed to blow up.  I would really love to see an anchor project that draws people from the surrounding neighborhoods into it.  Especially something that would generally draw people out of the city, like a Target, Best Buy, WalMart, etc. 

I know big box stores aren't sexy like mixed use SA developments, but I think one being placed in the city would really be a sign of Richmond shifting even more away from being a commuter city.  I think the Diamond or Chamberlayne areas are central to a lot, starting to develop, and still have easy developable land for such a project.

Still patiently waiting for the Diamond area RFP to be issued... last I saw RTD quoted a city official as saying late summer 21.  That area will see a major transition, and developers know it, which is why they are already popping up around it - this development, the Wawa on Boulevard, etc.  Need a Target in there badly.

[ancientcarpenter]

19 hours ago, 123fakestreet said:

Need a Target in there badly.

As much as I dislike big box stores, a target in the "walkable" RVA city area would not only change the immediate space but will also catch the eye of other big box companies, making RVA more attractive on all fronts. If Target could just not look like it does and feel more "urban" that would be great. All pipe talk anyways.

[whw53]

@ancientcarpenterI lived in Falls Church prior to moving to Richmond 5 years ago. We had a couple Target concepts there that didn't fit the normal big-box layout. It can be done!

Falls Church City

 Merrifield Target

 

 

[I miss RVA]

I'm in Chicago, and Target has several "neighborhood"  (read: non-big-box) stores across the city. On the city's far North Side where I am, there is a stand-alone on one of the major avenues in this part of town that is the size of a big box, but has integrated parking (a multi-level garage takes up the entire east side of the building), and no surface parking. There is a dedicated bus stop along this avenue (both sides of the street) - and the store is built out right to the sidewalk and fronts the street. It is VERY well designed - with the store itself built on the second level and an extension of parking running the entire length of the building underneath the store but at ground level - no underground parking so it is at least incrementally safer. That store does a very healthy business and pre-pandemic was always packed - (even now activity is quite robust in the store).

Closer to downtown, there are a couple of Targets that are built into large buildings - and they are multi-level stores, such that where the square footage of the floor plate isn't a huge as it would be in a single-level big box, it's made up for by having a second or third level of shopping. These are integrated beautifully into the urban fabric of their neighborhoods. The one I've been to not all that far from Wrigley Field is a great example of how to create an urban Target and plug it into a dense urban neighborhood. The retailer - and the developer - all did their homework and 100% got it right.

[wrldcoupe4]

Have they put these formats into 2nd or 3rd tier markets? Seen them in 1st tier major cities 

[Icetera]

20 minutes ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

Have they put these formats into 2nd or 3rd tier markets? Seen them in 1st tier major cities 

If they are doing these in the deep NOVA suburbs then that seems like hope for a denser urban center like Richmond.

[rjp212]

40 minutes ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

Have they put these formats into 2nd or 3rd tier markets? Seen them in 1st tier major cities 

There is an urban format Target in Charlotte at the Midtown complex. 
 

 

[wrldcoupe4]

Great, are there any in our peer metros? Charlotte is double the size of Richmond?  Just asking if you've seen it, not asking for anyone to have to research my question for me.

[wrldcoupe4]

Just looking for precedence to give us hope, that's all 

[rjp212]

Mostly large cities or near universities. 

Small/Urban Format Targets

[RiverYuppy]

Walmart did have a Walmart On Campus on Grace Street that was an urban shop.  It was a part of a deal with VCU.

Unfortunately it only lasted a few years though.  But it shows that big box stores are willing to take chances in urban areas even as small as RVA.

While I'm not sure RVA will get a style target they have in 1st tier cities, I think as part of a larger Diamond RFP/development plan we could get one that is transit oriented and with a minimal surface level parking footprint. 

Even if it isn't exactly the type of store we want, it being in the city is going to help encourage more of the dense development that we want.

 

EDIT:  Forgot to mention that Ikea would be another good option. They generally have a parking garage and I've seen them outside of 1st tier cities.

Edited August 19, 2021 by RiverYuppy

[whw53]

Here's a couple-

Columbus (metro pop. about 2m)

Raleigh (metro pop 1.4m)

 

but yea i really had to search for these. Nothing in Memphis, Louisville, New Orleans, Salt Lake City, Buffalo for instance. 

 

edit - as @rjp212 pointed out both above are directly across from campuses.

Edited August 19, 2021 by whw53

[marinog711]

Got one in Pittsburgh.. I’d say they’re probably 2nd tier

[georgeglass]

6 hours ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

Great, are there any in our peer metros? Charlotte is double the size of Richmond?  Just asking if you've seen it, not asking for anyone to have to research my question for me.

Just wanted to add that Lexington, KY has an urban style Target. Yes, it is on the edge of campus and downtown....but it would be no different if we had one close to VCU and downtown. Having lived in both places, Richmond is definitely a larger metro.

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by georgeglass

[123fakestreet]

As much as I'd love to see these urban Targets come here, I think with the massive amount of space available in the Diamond area people should prepare themselves for a pretty suburban development.  We've all already lamented how the Wawa, car wash, etc going on in boulevard is pretty suburbanesque, most likely that is what will fill in the rest of the area.  

Edited August 20, 2021 by 123fakestreet

[ancientcarpenter]

11 minutes ago, 123fakestreet said:

As much as I'd love to see these urban Targets come here, I think with the massive amount of space available in the Diamond area people should prepare themselves for a pretty suburban strip mall type development.  We've all already lamented how the Wawa, car wash, etc going on in boulevard is pretty suburbanesque, most likely that is what will fill in the rest of the area.  

I agree with you halfway.... I think we will see more suburban style companies open up. It definitely will not become a Carytown that's for sure. However, with the warehouses, stadium, and VCU in that area we will probably see something more like Libbie Mill / Willow Lawn meets Scotts Addition hybrid, I believe. 

[whw53]

2 hours ago, 123fakestreet said:

As much as I'd love to see these urban Targets come here, I think with the massive amount of space available in the Diamond area people should prepare themselves for a pretty suburban strip mall type development.  We've all already lamented how the Wawa, car wash, etc going on in boulevard is pretty suburbanesque, most likely that is what will fill in the rest of the area.  

The Wawa/car wash/ scotts walk side of the BLVD is still zoned industrial remember- the opposing side just got zoned to TOD-1 which has a slew of urban form based controls. On top of that I tjink the RFP is going to ask for a gridded, intense development concept based on what we've seen in the 300 plan.

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Correction - portions of the 'Wawa side' were also zoned to TOD-1 as part of the recent upzoning action as well  but the developments mentioned prior were approved under the former B-7 zoning. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by whw53

[123fakestreet]

3 hours ago, ancientcarpenter said:

I agree with you halfway.... I think we will see more suburban style companies open up. It definitely will not become a Carytown that's for sure. However, with the warehouses, stadium, and VCU in that area we will probably see something more like Libbie Mill / Willow Lawn meets Scotts Addition hybrid, I believe. 

Agree, it's not going to be straight up strip mall, but unlikely it will be very urban type area either.  I actually edited out strip mall of the original post because that's not what i meant.  I think you hit the nail on the head, a Willow Lawn/Libbie Mill type development.  Point being those are still pretty suburban with sprawling parking lots, just a bit more "modern suburban."  

Edited August 20, 2021 by 123fakestreet

[I miss RVA]

2 hours ago, 123fakestreet said:

Agree, it's not going to be straight up strip mall, but unlikely it will be very urban type area either.  I actually edited out strip mall of the original post because that's not what i meant.  I think you hit the nail on the head, a Willow Lawn/Libbie Mill type development.  Point being those are still pretty suburban with sprawling parking lots, just a bit more "modern suburban."  

As whw53 mentioned, that entire area has been upzoned to TOD-1, and that zoning carries some pretty specific requirements for development to be urban in form. If, in fact the RFP for the area is also asking for a gridded, intense development concept outlined in the Richmond300 plan, then that kind of suburban development will get squeezed out because it no longer meets the current zoning restrictions. The Wawa and car wash, as stated above, were approved prior to the upzoning to TOD-1 was approved - so they got in under the wire under the old zoning regs. Going forward, it does not look like kind of more suburban development will be realistically possible due to the significant zoning changes.

Edited August 20, 2021 by I miss RVA

[123fakestreet]

7 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

As whw53 mentioned, that entire area has been upzoned to TOD-1, and that zoning carries some pretty specific requirements for development to be urban in form. If, in fact the RFP for the area is also asking for a gridded, intense development concept outlined in the Richmond300 plan, then that kind of suburban development will get squeezed out because it no longer meets the current zoning restrictions. The Wawa and car wash, as stated above, were approved prior to the upzoning to TOD-1 was approved - so they got in under the wire under the old zoning regs. Going forward, this does not look like it is realistically possible due to the significant zoning changes.

That's good to know, but even if not required by zoning law I think the developers will likely want a more suburban appeal w tons of parking because a large part of the attraction for them is that this retail is at the confluence of 95 and 64, so not just suburbanites but out of towers coming here as a destination, and those people will need a very car friendly environment.

[I miss RVA]

24 minutes ago, 123fakestreet said:

That's good to know, but even if not required by zoning law I think the developers will likely want a more suburban appeal w tons of parking because a large part of the attraction for them is that this retail is at the confluence of 95 and 64, so not just suburbanites but out of towers coming here as a destination, and those people will need a very car friendly environment.

Some developers may want it in this part of the city, but it's not permitted under TOD-1 zoning regulations. The requirements on developers to produce a highly dense, fully-to-the-street urban form footprint are very clear and very strict. You don't need surface parking for an area to be car friendly. TOD-1 developments have integrated parking requirements - so everything is handled in decks/garages that are baked organically into the project, such that the projects footprint goes right up to the sidewalk, establishes hard/firm corners, and contains integrated parking.

It's not a matter of this kind of thing (the suburban style development) being "not required" by the zoning regs, it's not permitted by the TOD-1 regs. Thank God, the mindset of urban planners and developers has shifted away from suburban appeal for developments in cities - and nowadays, even in the suburbs themselves as urban centers or large-scale developments with a significantly more urban character and footprint are popping up all over suburbia. It's just that RVA is only now finally getting on board (other cities/metros have embraced this concept for quite some time now - but RVA, as usual, is behind the curve, particularly when it comes to shaking the car-centric nature of development). 

Again, pointing to what whw53 said earlier - if the RFP indeed includes the request for a highly intense/dense gridded development footprint, that will kibosh suburban style projects from even being considered in this part of the city - which is a VERY good thing. Again, it can still be "car-friendly" without being "car-centric" - and car-centric is what RVA NEEDS to move away from, and the sooner the better.

Edited August 20, 2021 by I miss RVA