East Bank – I-24 to the Cumberland/I-24 Overpass up to Jefferson – 338 Acres, Nissan Stadium, "Imagine East Bank"

[markhollin]

[rolly]

^^^ Could be a good to compare this shot in 10 years. 

[smeagolsfree]

1 hour ago, rolly said:

^^^ Could be a good to compare this shot in 10 years. 

I will say in 5 years it will be a lot different!

[markhollin]

Looking east between James Robertson Parkway and Woodland St:

[AronG]

On 12/2/2021 at 6:08 PM, andywildman said:

I love that the Spring Street sharrows are considered “existing bike network” on the biking map.

This drives me absolutely crazy, and it absolutely turns most of the planning conversations in this city around pedestrian/bike infrastructure into some kind of stupid pointless ritual.

This is not a bike lane. It is not any kind of bike thing. Riding a bike here would be suicidal. No-one does it, and no-one is ever going to do it. Any idiot that drives the cloverleaf to take a look at this, or even glances at it on a map, knows that. They might as well have painted a picture of a kid in the middle of the interstate and called it a new playground, it would make as much sense.

I have no idea who is responsible for this absurd creation or what bureaucratic rule motivated them to do it, but I assume it's a dim relic of the past. The infuriating thing about it is, why in the name of all that is holy are planning people still drawing maps pretending like this is part of a bike network? Not only is it not a bike lane, it's the opposite of a bike lane. It's a complete, impassable obstacle to anybody on foot/bike trying to get between, say, the east bank, and McFerrin Park, a neighborhood with lots of cool stuff that people might like to frequent without driving.

This isn't some isolated example, either. The vast majority of the planning conversations on bike networks around here use utterly delusional maps. The green lines on this map would make you think that we have an existing bike network to tap into and extend.

The reality is, we have only small, isolated stretches of actual, safe bike lanes that anyone other than a hardened road warrior would use.

Just in this one section, I see Dickerson, Spring St, and Main St included as "existing bike lanes", each of which is completely delusional. And at a quick glance, some of the dotted blue "proposed bike lanes" don't make sense either. Why does this map show a proposed bike lane leading through the cloverleaf and onto Ellington? It's like some kind of joke. "The new neighborhood is going to have great connectivity; here's a new bike lane to get on the interstate!" (?!?) Maybe they're gonna stencil little bicycle pictures onto Ellington and add it to the "bikeway network" too...

 

For me, I've tried to participate in the Nashville planning process for years, and it's getting hard to play along any more. I've never been able to tell if the planning people are well-intentioned and incompetent on this topic, or if they're just wearily going through the motions to provide a nice greenwashed photo op before we sink a few more hundreds of millions into infrastructure for suburban commuters.

I wish organizations like Nashville walk and bike would call them out more, or at least be more public about what we actually have to work with right now. A realistic map of Nashville from a pedestrian/bike perspective would show a city of islands, connected by a few dangerous corridors that allow the brave or desperate to risk their lives crossing between them. If you've tried to get around this city outside a car, you know this very viscerally, but no one in planning seems able to acknowledge it. The best hope for the East Bank is to create a traffic-calmed island with the density and mix of uses to have good internal foot traffic, and to pick a few corridors in and out and make drastic improvements to enable safe non-car connections to surrounding neighborhoods.

[chris holman]

https://www.facebook.com/102773938601/posts/10158543806153602/

 

It's one thing to plan, and another to act. Metro leaders just secured $50 million to begin designing this central boulevard on the East Bank — and buy the land and right-of-way to make room for it.

Edited December 17, 2021 by chris holman

[smeagolsfree]

I still think this is a project that is a huge waste of money and could be done much cheaper by utilizing existing roads. Its lack of imagination and wanting to have a grand project. I have a plan that would work that is not a straight line. Why do you have to have have nice straight lines to make things work? You don’t.

 

[smeagolsfree]

This is what I tweeted out as an alternative plan.

Spine Street solution! Makes more sense to run this along 2nd thru Juvi Justice Ctr., then along 1st. Only land buy is along 1st and a rebuild of RR bridge. Will save money. 50 million is out of bounds! They can put streetlights up that don't fall down like on Division St. Cheap.

[Bos2Nash]

That is a decent alternative, but I still  disagree. The existing street grid is absolutely not conducive to a multi-modal model and does not provide the level of connectiveness that an urban neighborhood needs. If the street layout and functionality sucks, the neighborhood will suck. The ROW is not wide enough for the spine or any kind of main road that is being discussed. Currently the widest ROW along this proposed route is 69'-0" wide and needs to be widened to around 100' to be effective. That 100' will (or should) minimally be for cars, but for buses, pedestrians, bikes they all need to be accommodated within that right of way. To me the spine is more important than the riverfront itself here. We screw up the street grid (primarily the spine) we will be spending money for more empty parcels. So either scheme, we are looking at a fair amount of acquisition and ROW widening. Lets break down the sections:

PSC Metals / South of Shelby – Davidson is already its own corridor and will develop accordingly once the neighborhood begins to fill in (we are already seeing folks get ahead the game with CA South buying up land). Having the spine utilize Crutcher Street ties back into the Shelby Bottoms neighborhood better. Davidson will also be followed for the greenway connection and will tie in to the south side of Nissan more appropriately. Additional connections to Summer Place (most likely with realigned Interstate ramps in conjunction with TDOT) will provide additional neighborhood connectiveness.

Shelby to Woodland – The roadway NEEDS to be pulled away from Nissan Stadium in order to provide more fan/spectator space in front of the stadium as well as begin to think about how the renovations to the stadium would encroach on the road. Additionally the road has a much better alignment than just willy nilly slicing through the justice center (which is said to be moved) to make what would be two relatively tight radi for turning. This approach allows for a realigned, 2nd Ave, Interstate Drive (renamed to Frontage Drive) and a new road in between to create buildable lots and allow for services to be laid out appropriately. 

Woodland / Jefferson – This is the trickiest area due to the planned developments, but definitely not impossible (and where alot of the monies for ROW improvement / acquisition is intended). The study may be why we haven't heard all the much information out of RMR, because they very well could be working with Planning in the background. Having this additional street run through their site (which they have already planned some streets and most likely would be building infrastructure per the SP) will help them as the underground infrastructure can be routed appropriately. Additionally, CM Withers has mentioned a possible plan of rebuilding James Robertson and "grounding" the viaduct, obviously this would have huge implications on the study as well as RMR. The connection of Dickerson to the spine road could create a great node within the "North of Railroad" district that will create a great gathering spot. Cowan also needs a direction connection to the spine as there is a lot of development coming down that road that we cannot allow to just die at Jefferson. 

RiverNorth is intentionally not included in the study because they already have their brand new street grid planned and funded. The East Bank is essentially a continuation of that without a massive corporate relocation and would need funding.

Lastly, the current layout of streets is not conducive to underground infrastructure. CM Withers correctly pointed out at the last community meeting that the infrastructure in this area will be a pretty expensive price tag, because there is no infrastructure currently there to support the growth we are looking at. That infrastructure follows the street grid, so if we screw up the streets, we also screw up the infrastructure.

This is the definition of long range planning and not such a piecemeal approach on a parcel-by-parcel basis.

[MLBrumby]

That is very well thought out. Can any of it be done though without a complete overhaul of the expressways through that area? I realize the Oracle development will call for 2(?) connectors to Dickerson under I24, but does anyone know of TDOT’s plans for everything south of Trinity Lane to the Cumberland?

[smeagolsfree]

That is why I am saying make that the spine and use existing right of ways Metro already owns instead of buying property they do not own and making a new blasted road.  Worthless use of taxpayer dollars. They can make the existing roads 100' wide. They still have the RR tracks to contend with. If I am RMR I am going to charge Metro top dollar for cutting through my property and that will eat up a lot of your budget over something as stupid as a road that can be done as well in a different location.

Who says these roads have to be all straight! I think the grid is fine around the stadium and can be done but on the other side of Main, give it up! You have the colonial facility, RR Tracks, other large pre-existing buildings in the way, and property owners ready to start of large development projects. If I were them, I would be taking Metro to court.

You also let RMR worry about their own roads without Metro stepping in and building them for them!

[Bos2Nash]

The easy answer is yes. But the harder question is, should it be?

A question was asked at the last community meeting about TDOT/NDOT involvement and we were told that they are involved (I can personally confirmed NDOT is heavily involved as I was have spoken with the dedicated bike liaison for the entire East Bank) and that TDOT is evaluating the interstate connections. No indication was given as to what though. They did show a dashed connection of Ellington to the Interstate which I think is on TDOT's wish list, but I believe would be a huge mistake. Planning did mention how the desired outcome would be for folks not to use the interstate as a quick on/off going from Shelby up to James Robertson/Spring Street as the intent of Interstates is longer travel not high speed "get me past this traffic queue" travel.

This would be my hope for the interstate in the area. Rework the interchange for northbound at Spring Street and eliminate the cloverleaf. Eliminate the cloverleaf on the south side as well and direct all traffic off the Dickerson ramp to the traffic signal. Eliminate the southbound and northbound ramp at Main Street/James Robertson. Eliminate the southbound and northbound ramps at Woodland. Eliminate the southbound off ramp at Shelby and reconstruct the onramp. Reconfigure the intersection at S 4th Ave to have only one northbound on ramp (maybe the bridge going over 24 gets redesigned to a DDI eventually to eliminate a left turn).

Traffic on the southbound side would then be exiting 24 at Dickerson and make use of the spine and/or a connected Frontage Drive (RR creates havoc).

[markhollin]

The Davidson County Juvenile Justice complex will relocate to the 13 acre site that has been home to the Al Menah Shrine Temple since 1977.  This will free-up the several acre site at 100 Woodland St. (just NE of Nissan Stadium) for redevelopment as part of the reimagining of the East Bank.  A new primary north-south boulevard through that area will cut right through this tract. 

More behind the Nashville Post paywall here:

https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/development/metro-buys-al-menah-shrine-temple-site-for-9m/article_054635c4-5f72-11ec-809d-33a10b3db473.html

[smeagolsfree]

On the map as well! I would put it on here but just shut my desk top down and I am tired.

[PruneTracy]

I'm with @smeagolsfree—it would be a lot easier and cheaper to use existing routes than to try to cut new ROW through the east bank. Even if the existing ROW is widened to accommodate complete streets, that's still less technically complex than new ROW for a roadway on new alignment.

There's also the issue of disposing of excess land. I worked on a project in Chattanooga that basically consisted of removing a few redundant streets to spur development and create a more ped- and bike-friendly corridor along the remaining street grid and we found it was very hard to get the excess land marketable to a point where the planners' vision would be realized. For starters, the utilities that ran along the roadway corridor remained after it was gone and the utility providers (particularly American Water) were in no hurry to move where they owned an easement. There was also the access issue as removing the streets cut off access for some small parcels with no easy way to restore it without additional easements. Finally you can't assume that the excess land will naturally be consolidated into adjacent parcels and create a larger parcel more suited for development; on the contrary, the sale process (governed by federal regulations) seems to encourage outside firms to buy up the land and hold it.

It would make more sense if we didn't have 95% of a completed corridor already. Two S-curves at each end of the Car Hole connect 1st Street to 2nd Street and create a single corridor (the green line below) all the way through the study area. This alignment also avoids a direct intersection with Korean Veterans Boulevard, which may be desired as a full build-out of the east bank would quickly turn that intersection into a bottleneck (the connection can still be made indirectly via a realigned Victory Avenue as well as additional multimodal connections). This would have already existed if construction of the stadium didn't remove 1st Avenue here, which is interesting in the sense that a decision that was probably a no-brainer 25 years ago (blowing up the street grid) would be almost a deal-breaker today.

[MLBrumby]

Whatever the end result, it needs to be a well connected network of roads that don't funnel everything into the same 1-2 street(s) and connect to the main routes to downtown.  Need to be done in sync with the Interstate overhaul.  The streets through there need to connect logically, and personally I like the numerical naming system for streets.  Very friendly for out-of-towners. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by MLBrumby

[Bos2Nash]

Agreed. The numerical street are very friendly until we realize we have numerical streets on both sides of the river haha. 1st Ave N and S 1st Ave is still pretty confusing, especially when they are actually East/West of one another haha

[donNdonelson2]

Then we add confusion by renaming portions of numbered streets (and other streets as well) to honor historic figures. I sincerely wish the city would leave old street names intact and add a honorable designation the way Chicago does, by adding a sign indicating “honorary John Doe street,” or whatever. Much less confusion and all those living or doing business there don’t have to change their addresses!

[MLBrumby]

I agree that's absurd!  Lots of big cities do the "Honorary" sign under the historic/existing name. Changing street names is not cheap either for people who live there. My brother in law had to change the name/address on all his business media when his street's name in Atlanta was changed.  It cost him over $2 thousand. 

I realize I'm too logical ever to be on a city council.  I've posted on here my suggestion of a way to honor those who have left their marks on a city's history, but for some reason changing street names and forcing all those businesses/residents who live there to bear the cost for their 'magnanimity' is popular among elected officials. And in most cases the streets are renamed with the full name including suffixes of the individual commemorated, as if there's going to be any confusion as to whom the street was named for, father or son.  Reminds me of the silliness of having college athletes putting their suffixes on the backs of their jerseys.  To your point, my message to city council people would be if you're going to change the name of a street, then change the whole dang street (not just a portion). Or if they must change street names, then do so with new streets such as Korea Vets Blvd... or the proposed 'spine' street on the East Bank. 

[smeagolsfree]

To the point of renaming streets, I am done with all the renaming of streets in Downtown Nashville. I don't care who we are trying to rename them for. It is getting ridiculous, confusing, and absurd. To the point of the East Bank, they can rename all of the streets there because no one hardly uses these streets, and there are few established businesses on them now unlike the way it was in 1995 when there was a grid and many working businesses there.

I don't know think it would confuse too many folks if 1st, 2nd, & 3rd Sts. in that area were eliminated and replaced with something more in line with the reinvented East Bank. I do feel that naming them after people is the wrong thing to do. That gets too political period! I think they should honor the old East Nashville Industry that was on the East Bank!

Some of you have no idea what it looked like before the Titans stadium. It was very industrial in nature. I can't find any images quickly, maybe one of you can!

 

[markhollin]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

Some of you have no idea what it looked like before the Titans stadium. It was very industrial in nature. I can't find any images quickly, maybe one of you can!

1940:

1995:

1996:

[markhollin]

Huge feature in The Tennessean about the future of the East Bank (including points further north and west, as well as 2nd & 1st Ave. North redevelopment after bombing). It features a development map, video, photos, possible river transit, floodplain issues, etc.

"Nashville's next chapter is being written on the banks of the Cumberland"

https://www.tennessean.com/in-depth/news/2022/01/02/nashville-downtown-riverfront-development-along-cumberland-new-neighborhoods/8911596002/

[smeagolsfree]

Interesting that Ewing is getting nibbles for his project. There is a new Development Tracker App for the project, so we will see what comes out of  that. 

[Luvemtall]

34 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

Interesting that Ewing is getting nibbles for his project. There is a new Development Tracker App for the project, so we will see what comes out of  that. 

Although it seems like a lot of smoke & mirrors, as hot that Nashville is Ewing might have a chance of pulling off something. If he can entice a major player, with a large corporate relocation or a deep pocket investor/ developer anything could be possible. There’s no time like the present, to invest in Nashville!

[downtownresident]

53 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

Interesting that Ewing is getting nibbles for his project. There is a new Development Tracker App for the project, so we will see what comes out of  that. 

It’s for a community plan amendment. I wonder if they are following the Monroe playbook, amass the land and get zoning in place, then sell off to a larger player / group of developers to implement the vision.