Greensboro and Winston-Salem placed in new High A East baseball league

[cityboi]

Goodbye, South Atlantic League and Carolina League.

For the first time since 1968 Greensboro and Winston-Salem will be playing in the same league.

Would have been nice if it were AA because both are "double A cities" with double A standard ballparks. But it will be great to see some local baseball competition between two competitive cities. Both leagues are still moving up from lower A leagues to high A.

https://greensboro.com/sports/greensboro-winston-salem-baseball-teams-placed-in-new-high-a-east-league/article_c8d57040-6d51-11eb-984d-7f9056a90aa3.html

Edited February 13, 2021 by cityboi

[nicholas]

Man....W-S totally whiffed on their ballpark's location. I mean it has a great view of the skyline, but that's about all it has going for it.  Almost nothing within walking distance, located essentially on an interstate, surrounded mostly by parking lots.  Maybe they're playing the long game and anticipating that all the parking lots will gradually get redeveloped, and eventually bring more economic activity to the west side of downtown, but it's hard to feel like they didn't swing and miss.  I think the lot bounded by 5th St, 6th St, Main St, and the train tracks would have been the perfect location (if they could fit a baseball stadium in it) because it would have been in a much more active part of downtown, plus it would have replaced five parking lots...

[cityboi]

I agree, and it could be because it was the only available property at the time for the stadium in the downtown area.  Its more like a neighborhood ballpark on the "outskirts/ edge" of the downtown core rather than a urban park like in Durham, Greensboro and Charlotte. The location is similar to Greensboro's old baseball stadium location. (War Memorial Stadium).

The process did seemed a bit rushed as if they were in a hurry to get a ballpark in the downtown area. A little more patience and it could have been incorporated within the core of downtown which is where most ballparks are being built these days. The stadium itself is beautiful though. They knocked that out of the ballpark no pun intended.

 

But would be nice to see something built similar to Project Slugger in Greensboro 

Edited February 18, 2021 by cityboi

[RALNATIVE]

1 hour ago, cityboi said:

I agree, and it could be because it was the only available property at the time for the stadium in the downtown area.  Its more like a neighborhood ballpark on the "outskirts/ edge" of the downtown core rather than a urban park like in Durham, Greensboro and Charlotte. The location is similar to Greensboro's old baseball stadium location. (War Memorial Stadium).

The process did seemed a bit rushed as if they were in a hurry to get a ballpark in the downtown area. A little more patience and it could have been incorporated within the core of downtown which is where most ballparks are being built these days. The stadium itself is beautiful though. They knocked that out of the ballpark no pun intended.

 

But would be nice to see something built similar to Project Slugger in Greensboro 

Are you kidding? Regardless of where W-S's ball bark is, it looks way better than that Sluggers BP in Greensboro. That BP is a glorified high school baseball stadium.

Both Durham and W-S have better looking stadiums.

[SteveFromFuquay]

That's fun! As a minor league baseball aficionado, I think putting these two in the same league makes a lot of sense. Hickory and Asheville will also be in the league. 

Regarding the Dash's stadium, there were plans at one point to build a whole district near it, similar to the types of development in St Louis, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati at the MLB level (or what we're seeing in Greensboro and Durham). Hopefully they can get that done at some point. A little cluster of sports bars and a sports apparel store would be a fun addition to DT WS. 

[cityboi]

20 hours ago, RALNATIVE said:

Are you kidding? Regardless of where W-S's ball bark is, it looks way better than that Sluggers BP in Greensboro. That BP is a glorified high school baseball stadium.

Both Durham and W-S have better looking stadiums.

I'll take development around a stadium over design any day of the week.

[RALNATIVE]

1 hour ago, cityboi said:

I'll take development around a stadium over design any day of the week.

 

You'll take anything that you think makes Greensboro look more important than it is.

[jthomas]

11 hours ago, RALNATIVE said:

 

You'll take anything that you think makes Greensboro look more important than it is.

Booo - another thread derailed by your petty trolling.

But I do think that the question that prompted your original comment is an interesting one to consider. Greensboro, Winston, Durham, and Charlotte have all built downtown ballparks in the last 15 years or so (not sure exactly how old DBAP is). Which ones are most successfully integrated in the urban environment? What lessons are there to be learned regarding athletic facilities and urbanism? With Raleigh perpetually discussing a new downtown arena, it's worth learning from other examples. Of the ballparks, I'd say Durham has the tightest integration into the downtown fabric (though I've never attended a game in Charlotte, so can't say firsthand about that one). It's also the oldest, so maybe the others just need more time? And if we include arenas, I'd say Spectrum Center in Charlotte does very well as an urban building.

 

[RALNATIVE]

59 minutes ago, jthomas said:

Booo - another thread derailed by your petty trolling.

But I do think that the question that prompted your original comment is an interesting one to consider. Greensboro, Winston, Durham, and Charlotte have all built downtown ballparks in the last 15 years or so (not sure exactly how old DBAP is). Which ones are most successfully integrated in the urban environment? What lessons are there to be learned regarding athletic facilities and urbanism? With Raleigh perpetually discussing a new downtown arena, it's worth learning from other examples. Of the ballparks, I'd say Durham has the tightest integration into the downtown fabric (though I've never attended a game in Charlotte, so can't say firsthand about that one). It's also the oldest, so maybe the others just need more time? And if we include arenas, I'd say Spectrum Center in Charlotte does very well as an urban building.

 

Maybe if you had posters that weren't so unrealistically biased towards Greensboro, there wouldn't be a need to fact check and pull things back to reality (what you refer to as trolling) and more people outside the GSO homer group would participate in the Triad forums...don't you think?

[jthomas]

18 minutes ago, RALNATIVE said:

Maybe if you had posters that weren't so unrealistically biased towards Greensboro, there wouldn't be a need to fact check and pull things back to reality (what you refer to as trolling) and more people outside the GSO homer group would participate in the Triad forums...don't you think?

I have no control over what other people post. Speaking for myself, I am interested in discussing architecture, urbanism, and transportation issues. From what I've seen you post, you seem interested in bashing one specific poster, and in making negative comments in general. I do call that trolling. Perhaps if people stayed on topic, there would be more participation in the Triad forums?  I would love to see this board be more active.

I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on the questions I posed in my post. Sports facilities are often as catalysts for downtown development - do they really have that effect? 

[SteveFromFuquay]

1 hour ago, jthomas said:

Greensboro, Winston, Durham, and Charlotte have all built downtown ballparks in the last 15 years or so (not sure exactly how old DBAP is)

DBAP is actually 26 years old, built in '95 when the Bulls were still in Single A. Though it's been renovated several times since then. 

33 minutes ago, RALNATIVE said:

Which ones are most successfully integrated in the urban environment

 

 

Interesting question, though it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. The Knights are definitely the most centrally located of all the stadiums and there is way more development happening in Uptown Charlotte than the other cities downtowns combined. It's very quickly been woven into the fabric of Uptown as the area around it grows rapidly. For that reason, it's hard to compare the Knights to the other teams. 

DBAP was SLOW to develop. I grew up nearby and started going there regularly in 1999. I remember when it was basically just the stadium and felt pretty isolated from  the "heart" of downtown. Most of the early development around the stadium was done by the family that owns the Bulls, so they were adding to their own investment. It was only in the last 5 years or so that other developers have really started getting involved. Now that they've hit a critical mass, the number of developments has taken off. Those developments, along with ATHD and DPAC have  bridged the gap, but it took a while. That whole time the Goodmon family have been continuously investing in new development. 

In the case of Greensboro, the development is clearly being driven by Ray Carroll. It's the same thing that happened in Durham where one developer is driving the early activity (though I don't know if Carroll is directly involved with the Grasshoppers, I'm sure someone can enlighten me).  The stadium feels quite woven into DTG already, but there's obviously room for improvement. I don't think there's any question that 5 or 10 years from now, it will feel even more "connected" to the rest of downtown. 

Obviously Winston doesn't have the explosion of development that Charlotte has or the single-minded developer leading the way as in Greensboro or Durham. Right now it feels like a big gap but really it isn't that far. It's an urban stadium, even if it's on the edge of downtown. As long as downtown WS continues to grow at a steady pace, I suspect the ballpark will grow into downtown. It's obviously the furthest behind in that regard at the moment.  

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by SteveFromFuquay

[SteveFromFuquay]

8 minutes ago, jthomas said:

Sports facilities are often as catalysts for downtown development - do they really have that effect? 

This is a slightly different question from the one I thought I was answering. I will go on record and say that sports stadiums do not generate any new development. To do this, they would have to create extra demand for real estate. This has been studied extensively and there's just no evidence that adding a new stadium will increase demand for real estate. 

However, stadiums can act as a focal point for development. As I said above, this is typically because the developer of the stadium wants to build a district around the park itself. We've seen this in Cincinnati and St Louis (and I'm sure other cities). The ballpark may make an area "trendy" and attract investment, but that investment is essentially getting taken from another part of the city or region. 

So, basically, let's say Greensboro will need 1,000,000 sq feet of new real estate in the next year. If we build a new stadium, that number doesn't change much, but instead of getting built on the News and Record property or Southside or somewhere, it gets built near the stadium because the stadium is 'hot' right now. However, that doesn't always work. 

Heck, in some cases (i.e. Charlotte) you could argue that the new stadium was drawn by the development, not the other way around. The Knights wanted to be where the action is (and have been setting attendance records ever since). 

[RALNATIVE]

2 hours ago, jthomas said:

I have no control over what other people post. Speaking for myself, I am interested in discussing architecture, urbanism, and transportation issues. From what I've seen you post, you seem interested in bashing one specific poster, and in making negative comments in general. I do call that trolling. Perhaps if people stayed on topic, there would be more participation in the Triad forums?  I would love to see this board be more active.

I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on the questions I posed in my post. Sports facilities are often as catalysts for downtown development - do they really have that effect? 

Most definitely. Most cities that I have seen that have downtown arenas and stadiums tend to have thriving businesses surrounding them. One prime example is LA Live surrounding the Staples Center in LA. Most cities are not as fortunate to have 3 professional teams occupying the same venue, but when there's a lot of sports activity at those venues, most surrounding businesses reap the benefits and it can in fact lead to new developments depending on the market. I witness this when I was in LA last year at a Lakers game.

Edited February 19, 2021 by RALNATIVE

[jthomas]

2 hours ago, SteveFromFuquay said:

However, stadiums can act as a focal point for development. As I said above, this is typically because the developer of the stadium wants to build a district around the park itself. We've seen this in Cincinnati and St Louis (and I'm sure other cities). The ballpark may make an area "trendy" and attract investment, but that investment is essentially getting taken from another part of the city or region. 

This is a really interesting point, and I think you're right. It's not a bad thing - to me, it's an example of a positive role that government can play in development. Cities should be making targeted investments in infrastructure and amenities to encourage concentrated areas where it makes sense. I think this is a better outcome than allowing the same development demand to take the form of uncoordinated sprawl.

31 minutes ago, RALNATIVE said:

Most definitely. Most cities that I have seen that have downtown arenas and stadiums tend to have thriving businesses surrounding them. One prime example is LA Live surrounding the Staples Center in LA. Most cities are not as fortunate to have 3 professional teams occupying the same venue, but when there's a lot of sports activity at those venues, most surrounding businesses reap the benefits and it can in fact lead to new developments depending on the market. I witness this when I was in LA last year at a Lakers game.

Yeah, Staples/LA Live is a really good example - I stayed in an apartment across from the convention center there a couple of years ago. But even then, Staples was built in 1999, and LA Live was not completed until 10 years later according to Wiki. And some of the other surrounding development is just now being completed. So to circle back to the NC ballparks, I guess patience is the word - these districts aren't built overnight.

[KJHburg]

In terms of NC ballparks with integrated development there are only 2 that being in Greensboro with their office building as a part of it and of course Durham with its office buildings and retail integrated.   Charlotte's ballpark has space for a building but nothing built.  Yes huge apartment towers nearby but they are there in my opinion for the new park there Romare Bearden.   Yes WS's ballpark is on the edge of downtown but downtown Winston Salem is a very urban active core (drive down 4th St if you dont believe me and lots of hotels in renovated buildings like Hotel Indigo in the Pepper Bldg and the Kimpton in the RJR Reynolds bldg the model for Empire State Building)  

ALL of NC's largest cities have had a downtown uptown renaissance and comparing them is hard to do.  Downtown Wilmington is en fuego just out the Wilmington thread and downtown Raleigh is doing great too and more to come.  

[SteveFromFuquay]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would this be the only sport where Greensboro and Winston are in the same league? This seems like a great activity to add some fun rivalry tradition. I know the traditional thing is like a trophy of some sort, but anything really to highlight the series winner. 

Minor League Baseball is supposed to be fun, and silly and a little absurd, so something wacky and light-hearted would fit perfectly. 

[cityboi]

Looks like Greensboro plays Winston-Salem this evening at home.  The first meeting of the two cities in minor league baseball in decades.

[cityboi]

Congratulations to the Dash victory over the Grasshoppers.

[cityboi]

6 home games played in Greensboro, the Dash won the first 3 and the Grasshoppers won the last 3. I went the night the Grasshoppers had the most lopsided win 17 - 3. This is going to be a great rivalry. The Grasshoppers will play a series in Winston-Salem in the upcoming weeks.

Edited June 7, 2021 by cityboi