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Pembroke Mall Revelopment (Ongoing-Phase 1)


urbanlife

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https://www.13newsnow.com/amp/article/news/local/mycity/virginia-beach/pembroke-mall-prepares-demolition/291-b2c2a31a-dd3e-405f-86c2-0db46fd5942b

Smith said that he and his team soon will work with city leaders to discuss the design for the garage. 

He said his team expects to break ground on the senior living facility, which will be located near Target, in July. Construction on the hotel and apartments won't start until next year.

 

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On 4/27/2022 at 7:07 AM, Lluck002 said:

I get what you’re trying to say but street grids facilitate walkable, human-scale city blocks. The streets don’t have to be completely straight and they don’t all need to facilitate automobiles. Creating uniform rectangular blocks is just a better use of land in most cases. A grid that includes an abundance of pedestrian streets is also something to think about.

I’m a professional Urban Designer, yes with a degree in Urban Planning, but we didn’t have our heads buried in textbooks… like, at all. We learned mostly from case studies and design charettes and data.

One thing you need to remember is that yes, people make a community. But design influences their behaviors and preferences which, in turn, influences design of their community. The modern field of Planning advocates for certain principles of built environment design because they are proven to be the best. These best practices in design will influence the community to create a positive version of the cycle I mentioned above. A lot of community members don’t realize they want things like mixed-use, transit, and density because they simply haven’t properly experienced those things and therefore don’t realize the benefits they provide, so they just keep asking for wider roads, more parking, and more strip malls. The change has to start somewhere, and that can be initiated by Planners.

Grid or bust, huh lol. Sigh.  Indeed, there's definitely a certain womb-like comfort in conformity.  And likely far better job prospects, too!  I can't imagine anyone advocating against the street grid or even exploring alternatives during a municipal planner interview.  

But back to Pembroke redevelopment. Let's not forget that redevelopment can be a thornier and more nuanced of a proposition than clean slate development, a la Short Pump in Richmond.  I mean, I don't see any farm land on VB Blvd.  Nay, Pembroke  Square is 60 year old redevelopment project with long-standing, pre-existing leases which must preserved:  translation--large buildings standing in the way of your grid approach.  The owners have no choice but to work with what they've got because for now, at least, your alternative would be cost prohibitive. Because of course as in all development projects, but most especially with large projects in a tertiary or quaternary market such as our own,  there does exist a little (big), inconvenient thing called economic feasibility.  As a developer, one must be concerned with that which is actually economically feasible, not just with what sounds or looks exciting.  Developers and lenders are risking their own money and rightly expect to see a return on investment.  Budgets must be adhered to,  design compromises made.  This is the real world, not the stuff of ivory tower UP curricula. And, btw, it's not the UPs money that's at risk, now is it?

Unfortunately, and I don't mean to paint with a broad brush, most urban planners I've known  have been rigid as hell and all pie in the sky.  Little to no flexibility.  Ideologically pure--and verrrrry proud of it.  In fact, many UPs would rather see nothing built than recommend a development which doesn't fit within the vaunted street grid paradigm, for example (among many other preconceived tenants of  modern UP... which, imo, often resemble the liturgy of a religion).  

Back to grids.... By my estimation, even a blind monkey can draw an orthogonal grid. Not particularly creative.  One grid looks like the next. One street looks like the next. One block looks like the next. One development.... You get the idea. No character, utter architectural blandness.  And I totally disagree with you that grids necessarily produce optimal walkability. And that's not routinely their design intent, either. Nay, grids are often the product of civil engineers concerned with vehicular traffic flow. 

By the way, you can call a grid "walkable," reflexively and ad nauseum, but that doesn't make it so.  Ever tried crossing Broadway or Canal St. or dozens of other streets in NYC??  Scary proposition! Life-ending at times.

While I do  like your idea of pedestrian-only alleyways and roadways within/on the grid, would you be able to name one neo-urban, town center type development here locally where there are roads within the street grid which were purpose-built and designated exclusively for pedestrian use?

Might you know of any Urban Planner who routinely or even sometimes rejects the rigid street grid overlay in favor of a more organic, natural,  meandering, visually compelling street design which is actually laser-focused on walkability? And real sociability, too!  Say with pedestrian pathways, ponds, public plazas, parks and softened angles ...all dictating vehicular traffic flow...rather than vehicular traffic engineering dictating pedestrian foot traffic?  Please do visit London,  Canberra, even  SF.  And please also do consider, even for a second, the possibility that...that which devoted followers of the street grid paradigm likely deem to be wrong-headed and purely contrarian by default...might actually be appropriate and even superior in certain circumstances.  More creative.  More human.  And yes, more accretive to ROI.  This is the real world, after all. 

Edited by baobabs727
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1 hour ago, vdogg said:

https://www.13newsnow.com/amp/article/news/local/mycity/virginia-beach/pembroke-mall-prepares-demolition/291-b2c2a31a-dd3e-405f-86c2-0db46fd5942b

Smith said that he and his team soon will work with city leaders to discuss the design for the garage. 

He said his team expects to break ground on the senior living facility, which will be located near Target, in July. Construction on the hotel and apartments won't start until next year.

 

Exciting news. I'd like to see some better-looking garages for the TC area. Perhaps some architectural adornments and artistic ornamentation. Modern design only, please. How 'bout a living wall? 

GreenWalledGarage_slideshow_07.jpg

GreenWalledGarage_slideshow_04.jpg

LivingWallGarage 02.jpg

 

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On 4/28/2022 at 10:20 AM, baobabs727 said:

 

By the way, you can call a grid "walkable," reflexively and ad nauseum, but that doesn't make it so.  Ever tried crossing Broadway or Canal St. or dozens of other streets in NYC??  Scary proposition! Life-ending at times.

 

Was this supposed to be sarcasm?

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On 4/30/2022 at 12:54 AM, urbanlife said:

Was this supposed to be sarcasm?

Lol right? Haha Broadway in Manhattan isn’t scary to cross as it is a pedestrian street. New York City is extremely walkable and part of that is due to it’s walkable street grid.

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3 hours ago, Lluck002 said:

Lol right? Haha Broadway in Manhattan isn’t scary to cross as it is a pedestrian street. New York City is extremely walkable and part of that is due to it’s walkable street grid.

You know that’s a long road, right? I’ve walked it many a mile. It’s very wide and there’s lots of traffic…and yes people die.


https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/broadway-new-york-deadliest-street-article-1.1603993?outputType=amp

“Broadway ranked most dangerous for pedestrians in back-to-back years of the Tri-State Transportation Campaign's three-year study.

"It's very wide, there's a lot of traffic and there's too large a crossing distance for pedestrians," said Veronica Vanterpool, Tri-State's executive director.”

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On 5/2/2022 at 10:37 AM, baobabs727 said:

You know that’s a long road, right? I’ve walked it many a mile. It’s very wide and there’s lots of traffic…and yes people die.


https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/broadway-new-york-deadliest-street-article-1.1603993?outputType=amp

“Broadway ranked most dangerous for pedestrians in back-to-back years of the Tri-State Transportation Campaign's three-year study.

"It's very wide, there's a lot of traffic and there's too large a crossing distance for pedestrians," said Veronica Vanterpool, Tri-State's executive director.”

Well the answer would be to pedestrianize more of it along with additional streets.

Regardless, walking in New York City is far superior and more enjoyable compared to walking in any automobile-oriented, suburban-style spaghetti grid with superblocks.

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On 5/2/2022 at 7:37 AM, baobabs727 said:

You know that’s a long road, right? I’ve walked it many a mile. It’s very wide and there’s lots of traffic…and yes people die.


https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/broadway-new-york-deadliest-street-article-1.1603993?outputType=amp

“Broadway ranked most dangerous for pedestrians in back-to-back years of the Tri-State Transportation Campaign's three-year study.

"It's very wide, there's a lot of traffic and there's too large a crossing distance for pedestrians," said Veronica Vanterpool, Tri-State's executive director.”

That was like 10 years ago and it was referring to an area of Broadway up in the Upper Westside. That has already been fixed, they reduced it by a lane to expand the island in between the lanes to make it much safer for pedestrians to cross.

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On 5/4/2022 at 4:57 AM, Lluck002 said:

Well the answer would be to pedestrianize more of it along with additional streets.

Regardless, walking in New York City is far superior and more enjoyable compared to walking in any automobile-oriented, suburban-style spaghetti grid with superblocks.

Right. But that's a false choice. No one here is advocating for spaghetti noodles.  

11 hours ago, urbanlife said:

That was like 10 years ago and it was referring to an area of Broadway up in the Upper Westside. That has already been fixed, they reduced it by a lane to expand the island in between the lanes to make it much safer for pedestrians to cross.

Well, it's true that I haven't  been to the Upper West Side in quite a while, so I'm very happy to learn that what was once a deadly series of intersections is now much safer for pedestrians and vehicles, alike.  But let's not lose the forest for the trees. Obviously my broader point was that a street grid in the abstract is not by definition necessarily safe for pedestrians, nor is it safe, in practice and application, in many instances. 

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On 4/28/2022 at 1:20 PM, baobabs727 said:

Grid or bust, huh lol. Sigh.  Indeed, there's definitely a certain womb-like comfort in conformity.  And likely far better job prospects, too!  I can't imagine anyone advocating against the street grid or even exploring alternatives during a municipal planner interview.  

But back to Pembroke redevelopment. Let's not forget that redevelopment can be a thornier and more nuanced of a proposition than clean slate development, a la Short Pump in Richmond.  I mean, I don't see any farm land on VB Blvd.  Nay, Pembroke  Square is 60 year old redevelopment project with long-standing, pre-existing leases which must preserved:  translation--large buildings standing in the way of your grid approach.  The owners have no choice but to work with what they've got because for now, at least, your alternative would be cost prohibitive. Because of course as in all development projects, but most especially with large projects in a tertiary or quaternary market such as our own,  there does exist a little (big), inconvenient thing called economic feasibility.  As a developer, one must be concerned with that which is actually economically feasible, not just with what sounds or looks exciting.  Developers and lenders are risking their own money and rightly expect to see a return on investment.  Budgets must be adhered to,  design compromises made.  This is the real world, not the stuff of ivory tower UP curricula. And, btw, it's not the UPs money that's at risk, now is it?

Unfortunately, and I don't mean to paint with a broad brush, most urban planners I've known  have been rigid as hell and all pie in the sky.  Little to no flexibility.  Ideologically pure--and verrrrry proud of it.  In fact, many UPs would rather see nothing built than recommend a development which doesn't fit within the vaunted street grid paradigm, for example (among many other preconceived tenants of  modern UP... which, imo, often resemble the liturgy of a religion).  

Back to grids.... By my estimation, even a blind monkey can draw an orthogonal grid. Not particularly creative.  One grid looks like the next. One street looks like the next. One block looks like the next. One development.... You get the idea. No character, utter architectural blandness.  And I totally disagree with you that grids necessarily produce optimal walkability. And that's not routinely their design intent, either. Nay, grids are often the product of civil engineers concerned with vehicular traffic flow. 

By the way, you can call a grid "walkable," reflexively and ad nauseum, but that doesn't make it so.  Ever tried crossing Broadway or Canal St. or dozens of other streets in NYC??  Scary proposition! Life-ending at times.

While I do  like your idea of pedestrian-only alleyways and roadways within/on the grid, would you be able to name one neo-urban, town center type development here locally where there are roads within the street grid which were purpose-built and designated exclusively for pedestrian use?

Might you know of any Urban Planner who routinely or even sometimes rejects the rigid street grid overlay in favor of a more organic, natural,  meandering, visually compelling street design which is actually laser-focused on walkability? And real sociability, too!  Say with pedestrian pathways, ponds, public plazas, parks and softened angles ...all dictating vehicular traffic flow...rather than vehicular traffic engineering dictating pedestrian foot traffic?  Please do visit London,  Canberra, even  SF.  And please also do consider, even for a second, the possibility that...that which devoted followers of the street grid paradigm likely deem to be wrong-headed and purely contrarian by default...might actually be appropriate and even superior in certain circumstances.  More creative.  More human.  And yes, more accretive to ROI.  This is the real world, after all. 

I'm really confused how the desire for a more connected Pembroke to Town Center, with the example of an overlayed street grid, turned into an - at this point diatribe - accusation of posters being grid zealots and conformists. You hate grids, we get it. But how you're conveying your message is an overreach.

No one on here would protest a street overlay that resembles the medieval European streets you are advocating for, or the planned mesh design that the article you linked proposes. What people want is walkability, connectivity, and a cohesive downtown that links Town Center and Pembroke. How you get there can take many forms. If that were to include plazas, fountains, sculptures, ponds, parks. Great. Who's arguing to the contrary?

As for your New York assessment of being "scary"..come on man...

 

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2 hours ago, mistermetaj said:

I'm really confused how the desire for a more connected Pembroke to Town Center, with the example of an overlayed street grid, turned into an - at this point diatribe - accusation of posters being grid zealots and conformists. You hate grids, we get it. But how you're conveying your message is an overreach.

No one on here would protest a street overlay that resembles the medieval European streets you are advocating for, or the planned mesh design that the article you linked proposes. What people want is walkability, connectivity, and a cohesive downtown that links Town Center and Pembroke. How you get there can take many forms. If that were to include plazas, fountains, sculptures, ponds, parks. Great. Who's arguing to the contrary?

As for your New York assessment of being "scary"..come on man...

 

I don't "hate" grids.  You guys are just kinda, sorta--nay, truly--obsessed with grids.  As if they're the Holy Grail lol!  And gosh, I think I'll continue to "convey my message" and sentiments in my own way. Ya think? Yeah, I think...I've earned that right after posting here for  all of 17 years (as would anyone equally earn that right after posting here for even 1 minute!).  As to your second paragraph, great! We agree...except for the part about y'all accepting anything other than the orthogonal grid replete with purely rectilinear streets.    BTW, NYC is kinda scary atm...crime is way up...and people are standing with their derrieres planted firmly against the subway station wall waiting on the trains!  Though I love that you mimicked our POTUS with the "come on, man!" :-) 

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5 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

I don't "hate" grids.  You guys are just kinda, sorta--nay, truly--obsessed with grids.  As if they're the Holy Grail lol!  And gosh, I think I'll continue to "convey my message" and sentiments in my own way. Ya think? Yeah, I think...I've earned that right after posting here for  all of 17 years (as would anyone equally earn that right after posting here for even 1 minute!).  As to your second paragraph, great! We agree...except for the part about y'all accepting anything other than the orthogonal grid replete with purely rectilinear streets.    BTW, NYC is kinda scary atm...crime is way up...and people are standing with their derrieres planted firmly against the subway station wall waiting on the trains!  Though I love that you mimicked our POTUS with the "come on, man!" :-) 

Your accusation of anyone on here being "obsessed" with the grid is completely out of left field. You derived your conclusion of this board based off of one photoshopped image over a gigantic parking lot? I think you just read an article about an alternative to the grid and got so excited that you just had to proselytize, and decided this was your moment. You sound borderline manic, creating conflict that isn't there between your views and the board. As I said previously, you are overreaching to make a point no one is arguing against. 

New York is definitely having a crime problem. We were talking about it being scary crossing the street. Nice, "nay" terrible straw man. 

I guess you've never watched Monday Night Football or had a casual conversation with a friend if you think "come on man" was a nod to Biden. But duly noted for future use and how it might be taken. I've got no interest in expressing any politics, even tacitly, on a message board. 

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13 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

Right. But that's a false choice. No one here is advocating for spaghetti noodles.  

Well, it's true that I haven't  been to the Upper West Side in quite a while, so I'm very happy to learn that what was once a deadly series of intersections is now much safer for pedestrians and vehicles, alike.  But let's not lose the forest for the trees. Obviously my broader point was that a street grid in the abstract is not by definition necessarily safe for pedestrians, nor is it safe, in practice and application, in many instances. 

That depends on the size of the streets in the grid. 2-4 lane streets are much safer for pedestrians to cross than 6-8 lane streets. Something like the Pembroke Mall site should be a grid of 2 lane streets. Virginia Beach will always have an issue with Independence and VB Blvd, but that isn't the reason why a grid shouldn't be used for surrounding developments. Plus a true grid probably isn't even necessary, take the Reston Town Center that functions on a staggered grid pattern of 2 lane streets. The size of the Reston Town Center is about the same size as the Pembroke Mall Site, so I would imagine what was done there could similarly be done at Pembroke.

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On 5/5/2022 at 11:37 PM, mistermetaj said:

Your accusation of anyone on here being "obsessed" with the grid is completely out of left field. You derived your conclusion of this board based off of one photoshopped image over a gigantic parking lot? I think you just read an article about an alternative to the grid and got so excited that you just had to proselytize, and decided this was your moment. You sound borderline manic, creating conflict that isn't there between your views and the board. As I said previously, you are overreaching to make a point no one is arguing against. 

New York is definitely having a crime problem. We were talking about it being scary crossing the street. Nice, "nay" terrible straw man. 

I guess you've never watched Monday Night Football or had a casual conversation with a friend if you think "come on man" was a nod to Biden. But duly noted for future use and how it might be taken. I've got no interest in expressing any politics, even tacitly, on a message board. 

Lmao

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On 5/6/2022 at 3:28 AM, urbanlife said:

That depends on the size of the streets in the grid. 2-4 lane streets are much safer for pedestrians to cross than 6-8 lane streets. Something like the Pembroke Mall site should be a grid of 2 lane streets. Virginia Beach will always have an issue with Independence and VB Blvd, but that isn't the reason why a grid shouldn't be used for surrounding developments. Plus a true grid probably isn't even necessary, take the Reston Town Center that functions on a staggered grid pattern of 2 lane streets. The size of the Reston Town Center is about the same size as the Pembroke Mall Site, so I would imagine what was done there could similarly be done at Pembroke.

Agreed. I’ve been walking Reston Town Center since year one. It’s not perfect, but it’s definitely a model to be emulated and admired.  

Thank you for your perspective. Now THAT is how a well-rounded, intelligent, reasonable person acting in good faith and with a truly worldly perspective responds to that which might likely be perceived by many as a contrarian viewpoint. Look, I don’t have all the answers, and I don’t claim to have them, but I also know that the “majority” doesn’t either. I pride myself on approaching issues and problems with a free, critical and open mind, absent the safety net (and burden, advantage, etc….depending on your perspective) of conventional wisdom or groupthink. I don’t care all that much care about being popular, and I’d rather arrive at a conclusion on my own and with a clear conscience. And if in the end that opinion or viewpoint happens to align with what most folks think, so be it. Great. If not, no big deal. I’m confident enough to speak my mind.  This philosophy of sorts has served me well in life, both professionally and personally; however, I can still appreciate every individual human for his/her own philosophies, perspectives, beliefs, habits and customs. Yes, and that includes politics. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

https://www.virginiabusiness.com/article/castle-pembroke-partner-on-va-beach-apartments/

“The complex will be on top of the existing Stein Mart building, with about 35,000 square feet of ground-level retail, a four-story parking garage with nearly 600 parking spaces and 322 one-, two- and three-bedroom apartments. The apartments will be 550 to 1,800 square feet with amenities such as a saltwater infinity pool, 2,500-square-foot fitness center, yoga studio, 7,000-square-foot clubroom and entertainment center, rooftop terrace with a dining room and coworking space on each floor.

Construction will start in March 2023, and the complex is set to open in spring 2025.”

I’ll personally be thrilled to see a 12 story mixed use apartment tower rise in VB. I guess this will be comparable in scale to the Cosmopolitan.

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27 minutes ago, baobabs727 said:

Castle’s existing portfolio is Zzz. This rendering is not particularly awesome either. 

Surprised you feel that way about the rendering. Obviously it’s nothing spectacular, but compared to what we have there now, i’ll take it. I thought it looked decent, but it would be nice to catch some other angles of it.

Also, considering that the rendering only shows a 9-story building, the design may have changed somewhat.

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20 hours ago, vdogg said:

Surprised you feel that way about the rendering. Obviously it’s nothing spectacular, but compared to what we have there now, i’ll take it. I thought it looked decent, but it would be nice to catch some other angles of it.

Also, considering that the rendering only shows a 9-story building, the design may have changed somewhat.

I did notice the story count discrepancy.  I took a pass on that one thinking it was artist error.  

I’m keeping an open mind, but my first impression was that Castle’s architect opened their suburban apartment design vault (have you looked at their portfolio? yuck. ) and took a pre-existing, cheaply cladded box and simply tacked on a few more floors.  Maybe it’s the quality of the rendering and the questionable color scheme that also threw me. Oh, and what’s up with all that white screening material below the pool area?  That is the garage I would assume. Mr. Smith told me that he had wanted to incorporate a living wall there, but that it was very expensive. This is not a great substitute here. Definitely looking forward to more detailed renderings!

1FDA49DF-596A-4DC5-B2D2-A5DA15F0E0E8.png

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

More about the re-branding efforts--name change to "Pembroke Square"--development timeline, another view of apartment render...and other tidbits....including new website with some information on the redevelopment plans.

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/local/mycity/virginia-beach/realtors-pembroke-mall-rebranding-redevelopment/291-e6e78177-d86b-4d40-9ed5-8bac8b24dfd8

 

https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-business/vp-ib-mall-rebrand-0725-20220720-ihg2iadienh2jhufa4khmbti4a-story.html

 

https://www.pembrokesquarevb.com/

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On 7/20/2022 at 1:55 PM, baobabs727 said:

More about the re-branding efforts--name change to "Pembroke Square"--development timeline, another view of apartment render...and other tidbits....including new website with some information on the redevelopment plans.

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/local/mycity/virginia-beach/realtors-pembroke-mall-rebranding-redevelopment/291-e6e78177-d86b-4d40-9ed5-8bac8b24dfd8

 

https://www.pilotonline.com/inside-business/vp-ib-mall-rebrand-0725-20220720-ihg2iadienh2jhufa4khmbti4a-story.html

 

https://www.pembrokesquarevb.com/

I think their branding efforts are too oriented towards a traditional shopping mall or strip retail. Notice Town Center doesn’t have signs at all entrances reading:

TOWN CENTER OF VIRGINIA BEACH

Pottery Barn      West Elm      Williams Sonoma

Nike      Anthropologie      Westin       Taste

P.F. Chang’s      Hilton Garden Inn      Yard House

Armada Hoffler is striving to create an authentic, integrated urban environment. They do have the more subtle logo scattered throughout, but that’s more similar to authentic neighborhood branding (like how you’d see “Downtown Norfolk” banners hanging from lamp posts there). If you start over-branding and segmenting all these separate developments, the area will continue to feel disjointed. Pembroke Square is compartmentalizing itself. They could still brand themselves with the name and have the website but they shouldn’t keep the big strip mall entrance signs.

Honestly, the entire Pembroke Strategic Growth Area should be renamed Town Center Strategic Growth Area and no matter which development within this area you’re in, you’d just refer to it as “Town Center.” Armada Hoffler/Economic Development should allow the Town Center branding to extend to all developments so that subtle branding throughout after buildout will reinforce cohesive sense-of-place.

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13 hours ago, Lluck002 said:

I think their branding efforts are too oriented towards a traditional shopping mall or strip retail. Notice Town Center doesn’t have signs at all entrances reading:

TOWN CENTER OF VIRGINIA BEACH

Pottery Barn      West Elm      Williams Sonoma

Nike      Anthropologie      Westin       Taste

P.F. Chang’s      Hilton Garden Inn      Yard House

Armada Hoffler is striving to create an authentic, integrated urban environment. They do have the more subtle logo scattered throughout, but that’s more similar to authentic neighborhood branding (like how you’d see “Downtown Norfolk” banners hanging from lamp posts there). If you start over-branding and segmenting all these separate developments, the area will continue to feel disjointed. Pembroke Square is compartmentalizing itself. They could still brand themselves with the name and have the website but they shouldn’t keep the big strip mall entrance signs.

Honestly, the entire Pembroke Strategic Growth Area should be renamed Town Center Strategic Growth Area and no matter which development within this area you’re in, you’d just refer to it as “Town Center.” Armada Hoffler/Economic Development should allow the Town Center branding to extend to all developments so that subtle branding throughout after buildout will reinforce cohesive sense-of-place.

Mall owners have a hard time thinking about anything outside of how traditional malls function. So we end up with a redevelopment that struggles to act like a mall while also acting like an urban redevelopment. That is why it is better for mall owners to sell out to urban developers that know how to redevelop urban districts. The Pembroke Square will probably evolve into a galleria with mixed use surrounding it.

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