Military Circle Redevelopment

[BFG]

Good points. I forgot about the federal mandate and how messed up it would look to displace residents for an arena. Given how much negatively publicity the city is always getting for SPQ, an arena would’ve been 100x worse. 

[Arctic_Tern]

Also remember how the city is using this proposal as a seed development. The Military Highway spine is the highest land in the city, and will be a focus of development over the next 50 years. Proposals like this get ahead of that and will help model the direction the City wants to go in for the future of the area. 

[br0guy]

If I could take elements of Crossroads and Wellness Circle and merge them I would.  I like the look and feel of Crossroads but light rail seemed like an after thought.  Wellness Circle was well thought out, but I need a little more density.  Love the arena in Crossroads, hate the Reese’s cup in Wellness Circle… I’m all for art and creativity but NO.  It would be hilarious if they had peanut butter colored seats inside.  I liked the Trident Park concept, and the fact both incorporated the circle as a walking trail.  I’m leaning Crossroads if they re-think light rail and a street grid similar to Wellness to open it up some… almost seems gated to me.

[vdogg]

12 hours ago, br0guy said:

If I could take elements of Crossroads and Wellness Circle and merge them I would.  I like the look and feel of Crossroads but light rail seemed like an after thought.  Wellness Circle was well thought out, but I need a little more density.  Love the arena in Crossroads, hate the Reese’s cup in Wellness Circle… I’m all for art and creativity but NO.  It would be hilarious if they had peanut butter colored seats inside.  I liked the Trident Park concept, and the fact both incorporated the circle as a walking trail.  I’m leaning Crossroads if they re-think light rail and a street grid similar to Wellness to open it up some… almost seems gated to me.

It's perfect made for a sponsor though. We could call it "Reese's Arena". 

[br0guy]

Yes, but who would want to pay for naming rights when everybody is gonna call it the Reese’s Cup regardless (other than Reese’s of course). 

[urbanlife]

15 hours ago, br0guy said:

Yes, but who would want to pay for naming rights when everybody is gonna call it the Reese’s Cup regardless (other than Reese’s of course). 

Reese's would just get to live rent free in that arena.

[BFG]

So I noticed one of the proposals (I think S.B. Ballard) plans to get started next year, if approved. Is that even feasible? They'd have to get the remaining tenants out, demolish the entire mall, and then clear the land. Think they could accomplish that in a year?

[baobabs727]

I just sent my email off to Norfolk City Council and Jared Chalk, et al, urging them to choose Crossroads. In the end, I believe that Steve Ballard is the one, true diehard Norfolkian here, and he has the proven track record, wherewithal and know-how to get this thing done right. I find his plan to be thoughtful and detailed and better integrated with the wellness and entertainment concepts/goals than the others. I like his phased approach, and his arena architecture, while not awe-inspiring, is far more handsome than is the Reese’s Cup. 

[vdogg]

7 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

I just sent my email off to Norfolk City Council and Jared Chalk, et al, urging them to choose Crossroads. In the end, I believe that Steve Ballard is the one, true diehard Norfolkian here, and he has the proven track record, wherewithal and know-how to get this thing done right. I find his plan to be thoughtful and detailed and better integrated with the wellness and entertainment concepts/goals than the others. I like his phased approach, and his arena architecture, while not awe-inspiring, is far more handsome than is the Reese’s Cup. 

 

I don’t think we should get too hung up on the Reese’s cup. I think, as with everything, the final product will look far different. Just look at the casino we’re getting versus the one we were promised. In the end, I think it’ll just look like a run-of-the-mill arena.

[lammius]

4 hours ago, vdogg said:

 

I don’t think we should get too hung up on the Reese’s cup. I think, as with everything, the final product will look far different. Just look at the casino we’re getting versus the one we were promised. In the end, I think it’ll just look like a run-of-the-mill arena.

Agreed. One thing that’s certain with concept renders is that it’s not what the product will actually look like. when it comes time to *actually design* the thing it’ll end up different. 
 

 

[BFG]

I do think the "Reese's Cup" has a nice ring to it, but the Ballard arena is a nice design too.

Hell...I just want an NBA or NHL team playing there. Some opening round NCAA games would be nice too.

[baobabs727]

6 hours ago, vdogg said:

 

I don’t think we should get too hung up on the Reese’s cup. I think, as with everything, the final product will look far different. Just look at the casino we’re getting versus the one we were promised. In the end, I think it’ll just look like a run-of-the-mill arena.

Oh I'm well aware of that and would totally agree; however, that Arena and its architecture (as well as its much-ballyhooed architect) was part and parcel of their presentation, so I must evaluate it. Bottom line is I have more confidence in Steve Ballard & his team.

BTW--Neither Emmitt Smith nor Pharrell Williams influence me one iota on how I view these projects.

[urbanlife]

2 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

Oh I'm well aware of that and would totally agree; however, that Arena and its architecture (as well as its much-ballyhooed architect) was part and parcel of their presentation, so I must evaluate it. Bottom line is I have more confidence in Steve Ballard & his team.

BTW--Neither Emmitt Smith nor Pharrell Williams influence me one iota on how I view these projects.

Are those two involved in either of these projects?

Definitely the key things to look at are the overall plans and how the whole site will function with itself and its surroundings. The architecture at this point is just meant to be eye pleasing and catch people's attention, not reflect what will actually be built. I do like how the third plan included light rail within the design, I can't remember if the other two did that. 

Added: Okay, looking back over the plans I answered my own questions, I totally missed the Emmitt and Pharrell parts. That being said, here is my breakdown of each one with what I do and don't like about them.

Crossroads is nice overall, its basically a glorified mixed use office park with an arena. If that gets built, it will be nothing special but it will be useful. What I don't like about it, is that it called for 7,000+ parking spots and zero mention of light rail beyond pointing out that light rail could be nearby but not a part of the development.  Housing is good that it looks to have mixed incomes to enjoy the space, but it will be households that will still need to rely on having 1-2 cars to function. So it will look urban but function suburban.

The Norfolk MC plan is a joke, these are people with no plan but want to get in on the action so they can wing it as they go. It shouldn't even be humored as a proposal.

Wellness Circle is not only a proposal for this site, it is something that can be built off of and expanded. The plan isn't an inward thinking design like a suburban office park, it is designed to be connected to its surroundings. The plan also calls for 4500 parking spots and has light rail designed to run through the development making it a key urban factor to connect this urban center to downtown. This would be an extension of downtown. Like Crossroads, this also calls for mixed income residential, which is also a plus.  This plan also really focuses on the importance of parks with living and working near parks rather than just being what you do with the spaces that aren't buildings or parking spots.

 

Obviously, the Wellness Circle is my number one choice because it is probably the best option to redevelop Military Circle into an urban district. The Crossroads development would be okay if the plan was just to build something that looked urban but was appealing to suburbanites.

Edited August 15, 2021 by urbanlife

[baobabs727]

23 hours ago, urbanlife said:

Are those two involved in either of these projects?

Definitely the key things to look at are the overall plans and how the whole site will function with itself and its surroundings. The architecture at this point is just meant to be eye pleasing and catch people's attention, not reflect what will actually be built. I do like how the third plan included light rail within the design, I can't remember if the other two did that. 

Added: Okay, looking back over the plans I answered my own questions, I totally missed the Emmitt and Pharrell parts. That being said, here is my breakdown of each one with what I do and don't like about them.

Crossroads is nice overall, its basically a glorified mixed use office park with an arena. If that gets built, it will be nothing special but it will be useful. What I don't like about it, is that it called for 7,000+ parking spots and zero mention of light rail beyond pointing out that light rail could be nearby but not a part of the development.  Housing is good that it looks to have mixed incomes to enjoy the space, but it will be households that will still need to rely on having 1-2 cars to function. So it will look urban but function suburban.

The Norfolk MC plan is a joke, these are people with no plan but want to get in on the action so they can wing it as they go. It shouldn't even be humored as a proposal.

Wellness Circle is not only a proposal for this site, it is something that can be built off of and expanded. The plan isn't an inward thinking design like a suburban office park, it is designed to be connected to its surroundings. The plan also calls for 4500 parking spots and has light rail designed to run through the development making it a key urban factor to connect this urban center to downtown. This would be an extension of downtown. Like Crossroads, this also calls for mixed income residential, which is also a plus.  This plan also really focuses on the importance of parks with living and working near parks rather than just being what you do with the spaces that aren't buildings or parking spots.

 

Obviously, the Wellness Circle is my number one choice because it is probably the best option to redevelop Military Circle into an urban district. The Crossroads development would be okay if the plan was just to build something that looked urban but was appealing to suburbanites.

I noticed the same thing about light rail and I agree, but extension of rail service will be decided by City leaders, not these developers. The Eastside study report is not back yet. I’m actually worried that the existing starter line will be the only light rail ever built in HR.  However, If the City would want light rail to extend to Military Circle, Crossroads could adapt their plan to accommodate that I’m quite sure. 

So is the City looking to build a new “urban” district in the middle of the suburbs? Or are they simply trying to retain Sentara with a wellness village, sprinkle in a few hundred mixed-income residential units, a smattering of retailers and an arena for the Mayor?

Edited August 16, 2021 by baobabs727

[urbanlife]

1 hour ago, baobabs727 said:

I noticed the same thing about light rail and I agree, but extension of rail service will be decided by City leaders, not these developers. The Eastside study report is not back yet. I’m actually worried that the existing starter line will be the only light rail ever built in HR.  However, If the City would want light rail to extend to Military Circle, Crossroads could adapt their plan to accommodate that I’m quite sure. 

So is the City looking to build a new “urban” district in the middle of the suburbs? Or are they simply trying to retain Sentara with a wellness village, sprinkle in a few hundred mixed-income residential units, a smattering of retailers and an arena for the Mayor?

Those are good questions that will definitely have to be answered with what the future of Military Circle will be. I hope whatever happens, it will be to turn that area into a new urban district that can be connected and expanded to its surroundings, and include the expansion of the light rail system because that is how Norfolk is going to reverse this shrinking population trend by making itself more desirable to those that would want to live in a small growing urban city.

 

Something to keep in mind, Military Circle is about double the size of the VB Town Center (not including Pembroke Mall and surrounding areas outside of the original town center.)

 

In a perfect world, there would be an urban corridor from Military Circle to Pembroke Mall.

Edited August 16, 2021 by urbanlife

[vdogg]

4 hours ago, urbanlife said:

 that is how Norfolk is going to reverse this shrinking population trend by making itself more desirable to those that would want to live in a small growing urban city.

I am not convinced that Norfolk’s population is actually shrinking, and will be surprised if that is not appealed.

[baobabs727]

7 hours ago, vdogg said:

I am not convinced that Norfolk’s population is actually shrinking, and will be surprised if that is not appealed.

That very well may be true, TBD, but certainly Norfolk’s population  is not exploding nor even growing at a decent clip. And as someone else here pointed out earlier, a post which got no love except from me lol,  had we been experiencing robust population and job growth over the past decade to the present time  (say like a Raleigh NC), these plans would look much more like something all of us could get really excited about. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by baobabs727

[urbanlife]

9 hours ago, vdogg said:

I am not convinced that Norfolk’s population is actually shrinking, and will be surprised if that is not appealed.

It may be questionable if the population has shrunk, but it definitely didn't see any rapid growth that other cities has seen. Something Norfolk should have been enjoying during this last boom when people were looking for more affordable urban options.

[BFG]

Park Place and Colonial Place should definitely be presented as affordable alternatives to downtown and Ghent for young professionals and people looking to start a family. 

[lammius]

6 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

That very well may be true, TBD, but certainly Norfolk’s population  is not exploding nor even growing at a decent clip. And as someone else here pointed out earlier, a post which got no love except from me lol,  had we been experiencing robust population and job growth over the past decade to the present time  (say like a Raleigh NC), these plans would look much more like something all of us could get really excited about. 

Yes indeed.  Population growth can really put pressure on cities to upzone, densify, expand transit/bike/ped infrastructure, reduce or eliminate parking minimums, etc.  All the things good, desirable, urban cities do.

Without radically re-conceptualizing the whole Military Hwy/VB Blvd/etc corridors, and other areas surrounding, the re-vamped Military Circle (regardless of how many buildings they put in it) will be another drive-to "urbanish island" attraction like TC/Coliseum/Newport News' thing/etc., for people from other suburbs to drive to, be entertained, and leave.  And it won't really be a catalyst for urbanizing the east side of Norfolk (assuming even for a moment that's a desired outcome).  

Some cautionary tales: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/9/1/5-stories-proving-manufactured-downtowns-are-a-massive-mistake

  

 

 

[Arctic_Tern]

The wellness circle proposal would be much better if you're trying to build out an urban area though. It actually establishes a grid pattern and has areas for organic future development. The Crossroads proposal creates a walled garden that will be difficult to access by anything but car for future developers in the area. The bones of the wellness circle proposal are much much better than the crossroads one in my opinion.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Arctic_Tern

[Icetera]

20 hours ago, urbanlife said:

It may be questionable if the population has shrunk, but it definitely didn't see any rapid growth that other cities has seen. Something Norfolk should have been enjoying during this last boom when people were looking for more affordable urban options.

Over a ten year span it may not have seen any significant growth, as it would have been balanced by the first half's loss, but that does not mean there is not now rapid growth.  Unfortunately, that is one problem with decade long datasets is that it fails to accurately capture trends if they occur within the middle of the census timespan.  We may now be in Norfolk's decade, but it will take another ten years to really see the results, sadly, impacting decisions made over the next decade.

[BeagleAccountant]

Norfolk’s department of development just released this survey regarding the project and the three different proposals.  Here’s our first chance to let them know what we think;

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/K67QMNN

[baobabs727]

On 8/17/2021 at 1:06 PM, Icetera said:

Over a ten year span it may not have seen any significant growth, as it would have been balanced by the first half's loss, but that does not mean there is not now rapid growth.  Unfortunately, that is one problem with decade long datasets is that it fails to accurately capture trends if they occur within the middle of the census timespan.  We may now be in Norfolk's decade, but it will take another ten years to really see the results, sadly, impacting decisions made over the next decade.

Really?  ARE we though? 

[baobabs727]

2 hours ago, BeagleAccountant said:

Norfolk’s department of development just released this survey regarding the project and the three different proposals.  Here’s our first chance to let them know what we think;

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/K67QMNN

Sure took them a while to include the arena in this terribly flawed survey,  but anyway, I completed it. When the survey creators only give you a chance to include your top three priorities and in so providing you have to leave out certain laudable goals (an action which absent situational context in today’s world makes you look like an evil reprobate), I must say sorry, not sorry, for I am way too principled not to answer honestly:   Tax revenues, jobs & public transit.  

Edited August 18, 2021 by baobabs727