Military Circle Redevelopment

[varider]

It is exciting to see Pharrell in council session on a Saturday, and interesting to see the contrast in tone from Bruce Thompson’s pessimistic “I don’t have much time left” short sighted and offensive proposal on Thursday. Kudos to Pharrell for keeping the dream alive for us die-hard arena hopefuls. 

[zeppelin14]

Pharrell's bid was today with Norfolk. He mentioned he has been talking to two major national leagues for franchises. Obviously one is the NBA. The second could be the NHL which I'm not sure he even had interest in hockey. Either way, 15k is still too small for any major league franchise. But in my opinion, Pharrell should sweeten his offer, pull Atlantic Park from VB, and include that in his Military Circle project. Now THAT would get Norfolk to go with him.

Article: https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/we-have-been-talking-to-two-national-leagues-for-franchises-pharrell-says-in-pitch-to-build-arena-at-military-circle/

Edited February 20, 2022 by zeppelin14

[BFG]

NHL just got to 32 teams with Vegas and Seattle, so I doubt they expand. I can’t think of any teams looking to relocate; the Hurricanes seem to be in a much better position than they were a few years ago. Maybe the Florida Panthers?

Last year, the NBA said it was considering expansion due to money lost playing in “The Bubble”. I think Pharrell could get enough businesspeople together for that. If they want to expand immediately, maybe play in The Ted temporarily?

[vdogg]

1 hour ago, zeppelin14 said:

Pharrell's bid was today with Norfolk. He mentioned he has been talking to two major national leagues for franchises. Obviously one is the NBA. The second could be the NHL which I'm not sure he even had interest in hockey. Either way, 15k is still too small for any major league franchise. But in my opinion, Pharrell should sweeten his offer, pull Atlantic Park from VB, and include that in his Military Circle project. Now THAT would get Norfolk to go with him.

Article: https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/we-have-been-talking-to-two-national-leagues-for-franchises-pharrell-says-in-pitch-to-build-arena-at-military-circle/

"Pull Atlantic Park from VB"... Why? Why is this a zero sum game? Such a thing would only generate Ill will, why are you willing to go there? We should support developments in both communities. Cooperate. That's the only way forward.

[Norva757]

2 hours ago, zeppelin14 said:

Pharrell's bid was today with Norfolk. He mentioned he has been talking to two major national leagues for franchises. Obviously one is the NBA. The second could be the NHL which I'm not sure he even had interest in hockey. Either way, 15k is still too small for any major league franchise. But in my opinion, Pharrell should sweeten his offer, pull Atlantic Park from VB, and include that in his Military Circle project. Now THAT would get Norfolk to go with him.

Article: https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/we-have-been-talking-to-two-national-leagues-for-franchises-pharrell-says-in-pitch-to-build-arena-at-military-circle/

 

 

2 hours ago, zeppelin14 said:

Pharrell's bid was today with Norfolk. He mentioned he has been talking to two major national leagues for franchises. Obviously one is the NBA. The second could be the NHL which I'm not sure he even had interest in hockey. Either way, 15k is still too small for any major league franchise. But in my opinion, Pharrell should sweeten his offer, pull Atlantic Park from VB, and include that in his Military Circle project. Now THAT would get Norfolk to go with him.

Article: https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/we-have-been-talking-to-two-national-leagues-for-franchises-pharrell-says-in-pitch-to-build-arena-at-military-circle/

Ill believe it when I see it

[zeppelin14]

20 hours ago, BFG said:

NHL just got to 32 teams with Vegas and Seattle, so I doubt they expand. I can’t think of any teams looking to relocate; the Hurricanes seem to be in a much better position than they were a few years ago. Maybe the Florida Panthers?

The Phoenix Coyotes should be the team to move as they are going into a 5000 seat college arena for the next three seasons with no new arena of their own in the future. Gary Bettman won't admit defeat and admit hockey in Arizona has been a failure. Even so, a team would more than likely go to Quebec, Houston, or Kansas City, not Norfolk.

19 hours ago, vdogg said:

"Pull Atlantic Park from VB"... Why? Why is this a zero sum game? Such a thing would only generate Ill will, why are you willing to go there? We should support developments in both communities. Cooperate. That's the only way forward.

I'm saying this seems to be the way Pharrell seems to be leaning. I don't think he wants much to do with VB anymore.

Edited February 20, 2022 by zeppelin14

[mintscraft56]

I dont think he wants to fully rid of VB. I just think he is not happy with them for the moment.

[Urbanlooker]

This is from nfk.va on Instagram looks to extend light rail by 2.2 miles and add 2 additional stops. Along with this extension they are saying an "extensive" BRT route to Norfolk Naval will be added and a possible route to Greenbrier. 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Urbanlooker

[Urbanlooker]

I suppose this is a start I wish they would have taken the extension to the airport though. It would've added a few more destinations along with a sizeable population increase that live near a station. That being said there's no way they build this extension until they know what is going at military circle right? 

[Norva757]

2 hours ago, Urbanlooker said:

I suppose this is a start I wish they would have taken the extension to the airport though. It would've added a few more destinations along with a sizeable population increase that live near a station. That being said there's no way they build this extension until they know what is going at military circle right? 

They are pushing this because they don't think they will get the funding over other federal projects out there. Plus HRT has no idea what they are doing with light rail. Not very many people there that have railroad experience and running one. HRT is mainly bus and thats what they know best. 

[BeagleAccountant]

13 hours ago, Urbanlooker said:

I suppose this is a start I wish they would have taken the extension to the airport though. It would've added a few more destinations along with a sizeable population increase that live near a station. That being said there's no way they build this extension until they know what is going at military circle right? 

They said that construction of this line wouldn’t even start until 2028. Guessing that’s because of how long it takes to get transportation grants. 

[BFG]

I know it's a major decision, but anyone know when council plans to make a final decision?

[NFKfloodcaptain]

No decision needed from council now for HRT to pursue further federal funding for the next round of studies/planning. 

[BFG]

Expanded light rail and more green space ranked high on the citizen’s survey. As much as I want the arena, more park space within the city is a big deal to me too, so I’d love to see a walking trail. Just no amphitheater. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/business/vp-nw-military-circle-survey-20220321-7osztlqxh5g5bp3dhg23fp7f2q-story.html#nt=pf-double chain~homepage-top-chain~flex feature~curated~po3~7OSZTLQXH5G5BP3DHG23FP7F2Q~1~1~3~9~art yes

[baobabs727]

For some time now I've had a feeling that Norfolk may actually end up choosing The Well whilst directing them to explore the development of an arena....something BT seemed to have anticipated at the last minute by the looks and sounds of his presentation...especially near the tail end. Or...Norfolk could end up choosing one of the other two groups whilst directing them to incorporate the Well's central feature, or some modified form thereof, into the mix.  Just a feeling. No insider info.

[mintscraft56]

In my opinion Norfolk does not need another lake. Our city is surrounded by water already and the fact they want to take up vital development land with more water boggles me. 

[BFG]

On 3/14/2022 at 8:46 PM, BFG said:

I know it's a major decision, but anyone know when council plans to make a final decision?

Still curious about this. I'd like to think they're not gonna wait a decade just because light rail isn't happening anytime soon.

[baobabs727]

Query:   Given  A) Mid Atlantic, LLC's failure to close on their financing for the VB ARENA back in 2018; B) the recent double failure of Venture and Pharrell Williams to secure financing for Atlantic Park: and C) the history of many a developer's failure, region-wide, to get banks to lend for speculative, large scale projects such as these,  might  Mr. Thompson's sober, "grown-up," real-talk assessment (or non-aspirational/Negative Nelly/shizz-talk, depending on your point of view) of his opponents' re-development plans (with arena) actually have merit?

Query:   Indeed, is it possible that BT's proposal and assessment, if  A) deemed to be persuasive by Council; and  B) when coupled with his deep pockets and proven track record; and C) in light of his promise of quick delivery with 100 percent private financing and NO City Debt...might just end up getting cash-strapped Norfolk's nod of approval? 

Query:   Is Norfolk City Council in a speculative, aspirational, shoot-for-the-sky kind of a mood?  Or will Reáwirtschaft considerations win the day, especially in this hyperinflationary period,  where we see prices of commodities requisite to the development of such a project skyrocketing to the moon?

As you know,  Mr. Thompson has said that he doesn't believe that Wellness and Crossroads can actually deliver what they're proposing--AN ARENA--and certainly not without Public Monies--and  not within the timeframe that they're promising.  I realize that we are a group of no-spin skeptics here, by and large, and thus some of us may have rolled our eyes during  that portion of BT's presentation.  However,  self-serving as those assertions may seem, BT's words have a ring of truth to them and are substantiated by regional, historical events...as mentioned in the first paragraph...among others.   

Edited June 10, 2022 by baobabs727

[vdogg]

 

4 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

Query:   Given  A) Mid Atlantic, LLC's failure to close on their financing for the VB ARENA back in 2018; B) the recent double failure of Venture and Pharrell Williams to secure financing for Atlantic Park: and C) the history of many a developer's failure, region-wide, to get banks to lend for speculative, large scale projects such as these,  might  Mr. Thompson's sober, "grown-up," real-talk assessment (or non-aspirational/Negative Nelly/shizz-talk, depending on your point of view) of his opponents' re-development plans (with arena) actually have merit?

Query:   Indeed, is it possible that BT's proposal and assessment, if  A) deemed to be persuasive by Council; and  B) when coupled with his deep pockets and proven track record; and C) in light of his promise of quick delivery with 100 percent private financing and NO City Debt...might just end up getting cash-strapped Norfolk's nod of approval? 

Query:   Is Norfolk City Council in a speculative, aspirational, shoot-for-the-sky kind of a mood?  Or will Reáwirtschaft considerations win the day, especially in this hyperinflationary period,  where we see prices of commodities requisite to the development of such a project skyrocketing to the moon?

As you know,  Mr. Thompson has said that he doesn't believe that Wellness and Crossroads can actually deliver what they're proposing--AN ARENA--and certainly not without Public Monies--and  not within the timeframe that they're promising.  I realize that we are a group of no-spin skeptics here, by and large, and thus some of us may have rolled our eyes during  that portion of BT's presentation.  However,  self-serving as those assertions may seem, BT's words have a ring of truth to them and are substantiated by regional, historical events...as mentioned in the first paragraph...among others.   

BT’s assessment may be more “sober”, but I refuse to acquiesce to his “take what we can get and like it” demand. It’s both defeatist and insulting and I’m thankful that he doesn’t sit on any board that makes policy, because we’d never even stand a chance to advance with his attitude. Perhaps it’s a personal thing, but I’ve always tended to rebel against people who try to put me in a box and tell me that I can’t do this or that or I can never achieve this or that. That’s what Mr. Thompson is doing with his comments, he’s trying to put us all in a box. I don’t know about you, but I really don’t want to be in there, and I’m not going in there without a fight. We can and will do better. It may take far longer than any of us here hope, but it will happen one day. It just won’t be with people like Bruce.

[baobabs727]

2 hours ago, vdogg said:

 

BT’s assessment may be more “sober”, but I refuse to acquiesce to his “take what we can get and like it” demand. It’s both defeatist and insulting and I’m thankful that he doesn’t sit on any board that makes policy, because we’d never even stand a chance to advance with his attitude. Perhaps it’s a personal thing, but I’ve always tended to rebel against people who try to put me in a box and tell me that I can’t do this or that or I can never achieve this or that. That’s what Mr. Thompson is doing with his comments, he’s trying to put us all in a box. I don’t know about you, but I really don’t want to be in there, and I’m not going in there without a fight. We can and will do better. It may take far longer than any of us here hope, but it will happen one day. It just won’t be with people like Bruce.

This all seems rather personal for you. But why? It’s not really about you. It’s not about putting you in a box. It’s about economic reality. It’s about how lenders view us and our market. It’s about our lower than average incomes, income growth and job base expansion, population growth, and a local economy that is not well diversified.  

And…what is up with this quote: …”People like Bruce?” Say what?! LOL. How bizarre. What ever do you mean by that? And what is Bruce “like,” exactly?  

Allow me to inform you.  

Bruce Thompson is a self-made Norfolkian who has always dreamed big for his home region. Bruce Thompson has been honing his craft right here, locally, for three plus decades. Bruce Thompson has emerged, hands-down, as the best developer of high-end hospitality, restaurant, residential and entertainment in this region. Bruce Thompson routinely delivers projects of a scope, size and quality that no other local developer has ever delivered in his category before him. It’s not even close.  

It all started with Turtle Cay, The Hilton @31st St and the luxury oceanfront timeshare towers. With those developments, BT single-handedly redefined the hospitality and restaurant industry at the Beach. He put the industry on notice that they should and could aspire to produce much higher quality offerings. He showed his peers that taking a gamble on luxury can work here in Hampton Roads  

And with the success of those projects, BT  has continued building bigger, better, grander.  Bruce is the only one who could’ve delivered the spectacularly reimagined Cavalier with its $80+ million dollars in renovations.  BT is the only one who could have produced the likes of The Ocean Beach Club and the Marriott & Embassy Suites projects on the grounds of the Cavalier Compound.

Bruce is the only one who could’ve delivered and sold 35 stylish, modern, best-in-market condominiums ranging from 500,000 to 4+ Million dollars (!) in a market where no one, and I do mean no one, had been building any for-sale condos, much less at such a lofty price point —since the Great Recession! 14 years ago!

And we all know that BT never gave up on his hometown of Norfolk, either. No one but Bruce could have delivered the immaculate, exciting, trend-setting Hilton Norfolk, The Main. Indeed, others tried,  and failed.  

And need I remind you that BT is the one who proposed a super-regional airport for RVA and HRVA? Yes, THAT Bruce Thompson. The one who thinks big and then DELIVERS big. The same man who you seem to think has lost all hope and wants to put us all in some lowly box.  

Are you even talking about the same individual?!?

Bruce Thompson is a man of credentials and credibility. His words have weight to them. He is supremely, eminently qualified to make the aforementioned pronouncements about local efforts to land an arena.  Self-serving or not. Truth is truth.

You should never discount the possibility that he is correct. And you should never ignore the historical record in so doing.  

And BTW, even if you can’t shake the feeling of being put in a box, don’t take it so personally. Richmond has had its own well-publicized arena struggles, as have all of those other cities which BT cited in his presentation.

Edited June 11, 2022 by baobabs727

[BFG]

I don't mind Bruce's proposal, but I also don't think that's the best use of the land. The parks? Absolutely. The amphitheater, however, is unnecessary given that MC is roughly halfway between Virginia Beach's and Portsmouth's amphitheaters. Having gone to a show in VB a few weeks ago, I will say it's still a great venue 26 years later. Parking needs several more routes but it's an awesome place to catch a show. So I don't see where Norfolk needs to add such a venue that's only usable for a few months out the year........

.....As opposed to an indoor arena that could pull non-sports events year-round.  I dunno what Pharrell's intentions are for Hampton Roads, so I can't say whether his concept is pie-in-the-sky. Same for Emmitt. However, given the mixed-use component which includes condos and apartments, I doubt the city would forfeit tax opportunities just to be practical. And this is from someone who's become fed-up with Norfolk being too practical. For the first time in about a decade, I've heavily contemplated relocating. If not for my fiancee' loving it here and the fact that I love my job I probably would pull the trigger. And I imagine people my age (39) who want so much more from this place - not just from council but things like pro sports and the arts - feel the same way. They go with BT's idea in that location and I could imagine that being the last straw.

I say take elements of all 3: Pharrell's arena, Emmitt's businesses, Bruce's walking trails and a small amphitheater. Have local artists perform, have the Hurrah Players or Virginia Symphony do "arts in the park" shows. There's gotta be a way to incorporate everything.

[Lluck002]

9 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

This all seems rather personal for you. But why? It’s not really about you. It’s not about putting you in a box. It’s about economic reality. It’s about how lenders view us and our market. It’s about our lower than average incomes, income growth and job base expansion, population growth, and a local economy that is not well diversified.  

And…what is up with this quote: …”People like Bruce?” Say what?! LOL. How bizarre. What ever do you mean by that? And what is Bruce “like,” exactly?  

Allow me to inform you.  

Bruce Thompson is a self-made Norfolkian who has always dreamed big for his home region. Bruce Thompson has been honing his craft right here, locally, for three plus decades. Bruce Thompson has emerged, hands-down, as the best developer of high-end hospitality, restaurant, residential and entertainment in this region. Bruce Thompson routinely delivers projects of a scope, size and quality that no other local developer has ever delivered in his category before him. It’s not even close.  

It all started with Turtle Cay, The Hilton @31st St and the luxury oceanfront timeshare towers. With those developments, BT single-handedly redefined the hospitality and restaurant industry at the Beach. He put the industry on notice that they should and could aspire to produce much higher quality offerings. He showed his peers that taking a gamble on luxury can work here in Hampton Roads  

And with the success of those projects, BT  has continued building bigger, better, grander.  Bruce is the only one who could’ve delivered the spectacularly reimagined Cavalier with its $80+ million dollars in renovations.  BT is the only one who could have produced the likes of The Ocean Beach Club and the Marriott & Embassy Suites projects on the grounds of the Cavalier Compound.

Bruce is the only one who could’ve delivered and sold 35 stylish, modern, best-in-market condominiums ranging from 500,000 to 4+ Million dollars (!) in a market where no one, and I do mean no one, had been building any for-sale condos, much less at such a lofty price point —since the Great Recession! 14 years ago!

And we all know that BT never gave up on his hometown of Norfolk, either. No one but Bruce could have delivered the immaculate, exciting, trend-setting Hilton Norfolk, The Main. Indeed, others tried,  and failed.  

And need I remind you that BT is the one who proposed a super-regional airport for RVA and HRVA? Yes, THAT Bruce Thompson. The one who thinks big and then DELIVERS big. The same man who you seem to think has lost all hope and wants to put us all in some lowly box.  

Are you even talking about the same individual?!?

Bruce Thompson is a man of credentials and credibility. His words have weight to them. He is supremely, eminently qualified to make the aforementioned pronouncements about local efforts to land an arena.  Self-serving or not. Truth is truth.

You should never discount the possibility that he is correct. And you should never ignore the historical record in so doing.  

And BTW, even if you can’t shake the feeling of being put in a box, don’t take it so personally. Richmond has had its own well-publicized arena struggles, as have all of those other cities which BT cited in his presentation.

If we don’t have dreamers and visionaries, nothing will ever change or progress. We get it; you’re a realist. But not every comment or quote or discussion needs to be based on what is currently economically feasible. That’s boring and it doesn’t allow for development and advancement of innovative ideology.

The structure of society will change, and this will bring about new opportunities for innovation, which will lead to more societal change. It’s a cycle that can be jumpstarted with visionary planning. Please understand that planning the built environment for “what is currently possible” is completely contrary to the ethos of modern “Urban Planning.” We are supposed to planning for tomorrow. Let’s foster ambition rather than attempting to quell it at every turn. The visions may not come to fruition, but we will never know if we don’t try.

Also, it feels personal because he was attacking our Community. I applaud @vdoggfor their passion and love of their community. They want to see it improve and break the suffocating mould of “same-old, same-old.” I’d love to see more participation in our public input meetings from these types of people, as we are currently mostly receiving input on Comprehensive Plan updates from old, white, straight, conservative men who all want more parking, wider roads, no transit, and only single-family housing. That’s why Virginia Beach in particular has been backtracking on Strategic Growth Areas and other urban initiatives. I’m begging all of you to write letters to our Comprehensive Planning Division expressing your visions. The new Comprehensive Plan is due in 2023 and Planning Staff can’t recommend innovative best practices without community support.

Sorry about the tangent. TL;DR: Don’t put us in a box.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Lluck002

[Norva757]

3 hours ago, Lluck002 said:

If we don’t have dreamers and visionaries, nothing will ever change or progress. We get it; you’re a realist. But not every comment or quote or discussion needs to be based on what is currently economically feasible. That’s boring and it doesn’t allow for development and advancement of innovative ideology.

The structure of society will change, and this will bring about new opportunities for innovation, which will lead to more societal change. It’s a cycle that can be jumpstarted with visionary planning. Please understand that planning the built environment for “what is currently possible” is completely contrary to the ethos of modern “Urban Planning.” We are supposed to planning for tomorrow. Let’s foster ambition rather than attempting to quell it at every turn. The visions may not come to fruition, but we will never know if we don’t try.

Also, it feels personal because he was attacking our Community. I applaud @vdoggfor their passion and love of their community. They want to see it improve and break the suffocating mould of “same-old, same-old.” I’d love to see more participation in our public input meetings from these types of people, as we are currently mostly receiving input on Comprehensive Plan updates from old, white, straight, conservative men who all want more parking, wider roads, no transit, and only single-family housing. That’s why Virginia Beach in particular has been backtracking on Strategic Growth Areas and other urban initiatives. I’m begging all of you to write letters to our Comprehensive Planning Division expressing your visions. The new Comprehensive Plan is due in 2023 and Planning Staff can’t recommend innovative best practices without community support.

Sorry about the tangent. TL;DR: Don’t put us in a box.

People here are tired of being shown these grand projects just to be watered down so bad. Everyone here is a dreamer and want this area to strive but history  keeps repeating itself here. After awhile you get worn down to a point where you are doubtful to any of these developments

[vdogg]

17 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

This all seems rather personal for you. But why? It’s not really about you. It’s not about putting you in a box. It’s about economic reality. It’s about how lenders view us and our market. It’s about our lower than average incomes, income growth and job base expansion, population growth, and a local economy that is not well diversified.  

And…what is up with this quote: …”People like Bruce?” Say what?! LOL. How bizarre. What ever do you mean by that? And what is Bruce “like,” exactly?  

Allow me to inform you.  

Bruce Thompson is a self-made Norfolkian who has always dreamed big for his home region. Bruce Thompson has been honing his craft right here, locally, for three plus decades. Bruce Thompson has emerged, hands-down, as the best developer of high-end hospitality, restaurant, residential and entertainment in this region. Bruce Thompson routinely delivers projects of a scope, size and quality that no other local developer has ever delivered in his category before him. It’s not even close.  

It all started with Turtle Cay, The Hilton @31st St and the luxury oceanfront timeshare towers. With those developments, BT single-handedly redefined the hospitality and restaurant industry at the Beach. He put the industry on notice that they should and could aspire to produce much higher quality offerings. He showed his peers that taking a gamble on luxury can work here in Hampton Roads  

And with the success of those projects, BT  has continued building bigger, better, grander.  Bruce is the only one who could’ve delivered the spectacularly reimagined Cavalier with its $80+ million dollars in renovations.  BT is the only one who could have produced the likes of The Ocean Beach Club and the Marriott & Embassy Suites projects on the grounds of the Cavalier Compound.

Bruce is the only one who could’ve delivered and sold 35 stylish, modern, best-in-market condominiums ranging from 500,000 to 4+ Million dollars (!) in a market where no one, and I do mean no one, had been building any for-sale condos, much less at such a lofty price point —since the Great Recession! 14 years ago!

And we all know that BT never gave up on his hometown of Norfolk, either. No one but Bruce could have delivered the immaculate, exciting, trend-setting Hilton Norfolk, The Main. Indeed, others tried,  and failed.  

And need I remind you that BT is the one who proposed a super-regional airport for RVA and HRVA? Yes, THAT Bruce Thompson. The one who thinks big and then DELIVERS big. The same man who you seem to think has lost all hope and wants to put us all in some lowly box.  

Are you even talking about the same individual?!?

Bruce Thompson is a man of credentials and credibility. His words have weight to them. He is supremely, eminently qualified to make the aforementioned pronouncements about local efforts to land an arena.  Self-serving or not. Truth is truth.

You should never discount the possibility that he is correct. And you should never ignore the historical record in so doing.  

And BTW, even if you can’t shake the feeling of being put in a box, don’t take it so personally. Richmond has had its own well-publicized arena struggles, as have all of those other cities which BT cited in his presentation.

I'm not discounting anything that he said, obviously there's some truth to it or we wouldn't be having the troubles obtaining financing that we currently are. What I am pushing back against is the concept that we should accept this, and not strive for more, because it's as good as we can do. If we don't push for better we will never get better. So yes, some of these projects may seem pie in the sky given his assessment that we cannot achieve those projects given our local economy, but that does not mean we shouldn't keep pushing to do more. When I am saying "people like Bruce" I'm referring to those who simply accept that this is all that Hampton Roads can achieve, and therefore we shouldn't strive to do more. That's simply not going to get us anywhere, at least not where most of us want to wind up development wise in HR. Yes he has done a lot of good, and he has been mostly right. But mostly right is not always right and on this we disagree. I think with some effort and cooperation between cities (we've already seen some thawing of the ice on the arena issue) that we can achieve more than he currently believes we can.

[Arctic_Tern]

9 hours ago, Norva757 said:

People here are tired of being shown these grand projects just to be watered down so bad. Everyone here is a dreamer and want this area to strive but history  keeps repeating itself here. After awhile you get worn down to a point where you are doubtful to any of these developments

Yea, so lets just start with the watered down idea, then we can just be pre-disappointed! I'm sorry but Bruce Thompson's idea is just not good and not what the city was looking for.