Military Circle Redevelopment

[baobabs727]

On 6/11/2022 at 8:05 AM, Lluck002 said:

If we don’t have dreamers and visionaries, nothing will ever change or progress. We get it; you’re a realist. But not every comment or quote or discussion needs to be based on what is currently economically feasible. That’s boring and it doesn’t allow for development and advancement of innovative ideology.

The structure of society will change, and this will bring about new opportunities for innovation, which will lead to more societal change. It’s a cycle that can be jumpstarted with visionary planning. Please understand that planning the built environment for “what is currently possible” is completely contrary to the ethos of modern “Urban Planning.” We are supposed to planning for tomorrow. Let’s foster ambition rather than attempting to quell it at every turn. The visions may not come to fruition, but we will never know if we don’t try.

Also, it feels personal because he was attacking our Community. I applaud @vdoggfor their passion and love of their community. They want to see it improve and break the suffocating mould of “same-old, same-old.” I’d love to see more participation in our public input meetings from these types of people, as we are currently mostly receiving input on Comprehensive Plan updates from old, white, straight, conservative men who all want more parking, wider roads, no transit, and only single-family housing. That’s why Virginia Beach in particular has been backtracking on Strategic Growth Areas and other urban initiatives. I’m begging all of you to write letters to our Comprehensive Planning Division expressing your visions. The new Comprehensive Plan is due in 2023 and Planning Staff can’t recommend innovative best practices without community support.

Sorry about the tangent. TL;DR: Don’t put us in a box.

OK, I love your enthusiasm. You and I have conversed here and there, and you’re smart, energetic, have great ideas, are hard-working— a leader for the future.

However, with all due respect, you lost me with the “old, rich, white, straight, conservative men...” part. That’s an incredibly loaded statement.  I just cannot go there. This is not the place for that, imho, and it never has been.  We should all strive to have zero biases against anyone based on their age, race, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity,  political affiliation, bank accounts, etc.  Others can own that game. I don’t play that. I prefer to deal in individual merit and facts.

You can’t just tell some older generation to get out of your way. It doesn’t work like that; it never has. They have a right to be here in the game as much as you do. They’ve done a ton of good for this community, this world.  They have paid their dues, and they  have a right to remain in the fight—until they retire or die. They’re fighting for what they believe in, just like you.  

Besides, you  might have more in common with them than you think you do. They believed in this place enough to stay here, to raise families, build businesses, get involved in politics, donate their time and money to local charities.  These folks could’ve left for New York or Boston or California. But they didn’t. They stayed and fought the good fight right here in HR.  

Why don’t you see if some of them would mentor you? You could learn a lot from older people… and yes, even from older people who may not look exactly like you, talk like you …or  agree with you on every subject.

Let’s respect everybody. Casting aspersions never got anyone anywhere in life.   Let’s EARN our place in history. No one is going to give anything to us, nor are we entitled to anything. I promise you it will be worth the struggle —and the wait. 

Edited June 12, 2022 by baobabs727

[BFG]

Here’s the thing: are any of these people willing to converse with the “little guy”? We can talk about what Hampton Roads should have or is missing, but if the old guard insists on doing things their way or wants to stick to the status quo, does it matter what we think?

“Money talks, bull[crap] walks.”

[Arctic_Tern]

.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Arctic_Tern

[Lluck002]

On 6/12/2022 at 2:22 PM, baobabs727 said:

OK, I love your enthusiasm. You and I have conversed here and there, and you’re smart, energetic, have great ideas, are hard-working— a leader for the future.

However, with all due respect, you lost me with the “old, rich, white, straight, conservative men...” part. That’s an incredibly loaded statement.  I just cannot go there. This is not the place for that, imho, and it never has been.  We should all strive to have zero biases against anyone based on their age, race, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity,  political affiliation, bank accounts, etc.  Others can own that game. I don’t play that. I prefer to deal in individual merit and facts.

You can’t just tell some older generation to get out of your way. It doesn’t work like that; it never has. They have a right to be here in the game as much as you do. They’ve done a ton of good for this community, this world.  They have paid their dues, and they  have a right to remain in the fight—until they retire or die. They’re fighting for what they believe in, just like you.  

Besides, you  might have more in common with them than you think you do. They believed in this place enough to stay here, to raise families, build businesses, get involved in politics, donate their time and money to local charities.  These folks could’ve left for New York or Boston or California. But they didn’t. They stayed and fought the good fight right here in HR.  

Why don’t you see if some of them would mentor you? You could learn a lot from older people… and yes, even from older people who may not look exactly like you, talk like you …or  agree with you on every subject.

Let’s respect everybody. Casting aspersions never got anyone anywhere in life.   Let’s EARN our place in history. No one is going to give anything to us, nor are we entitled to anything. I promise you it will be worth the struggle —and the wait. 

I was simply pointing out that the people who have been providing public input are not representative of the diversity of our communities. We need more participation from diverse communities so their voices are heard and they are not continually disenfranchised. The desires of an old, white, straight man are not going to be the same as the needs of a young, black, gay woman, for example. If we don’t get truly representative input, we are repeating past mistakes and effectively silencing minority voices once again.

Regardless, you’re right about this not being the correct thread to have this discussion in, so I do apologize to the admins and will post any future discussion about this in the proper thread

Edited June 14, 2022 by Lluck002

[carolinaboy]

3 hours ago, Lluck002 said:

I was simply pointing out that the people who have been providing public input are not representative of the diversity of our communities. We need more participation from diverse communities so their voices are heard and they are not continually disenfranchised. The desires of an old, white, straight man are not going to be the same as the needs of a young, black, gay woman, for example. If we don’t get truly representative input, we are repeating past mistakes and effectively silencing minority voices once again.

Regardless, you’re right about this not being the correct thread to have this discussion in, so I do apologize to the admins and will post any future discussion about this in the proper thread

 I'm an "old, white, straight man". Does that make my ideas/desires/needs about urban planning and managing growth less palatable? Would it make them less valid? Isn't marginalizing ideas from this demographic exactly contrary to representation and inclusivity? I have a degree in Urban Planning and many, many years of experience in the profession. I think perspectives from every demographic are important, even from old, white, straight, rich men. Sorry for the rant but I'm tired of more and more conversations (about urban planning) becoming about race, sexual orientation, identity politics, etc. Just my two cents.

[mistermetaj]

In my view, planners are most effective when focusing on zoning (residential, commercial, mixed use, etc), transportation, architectural guidelines, and laying out the vision for the city. 

If a developer meets all the city requirements for the land they want to develop, then I don't care what an "old white man" or a "black lesbian" resident thinks. City officials were elected to take care of that and represent the people who elected them. Every development can't/won't cater to the oldest, youngest, or most diverse. Developers, by their very nature, will build what they think will generate profits.

In the case of this redevelopment, the city needs to come to the table with a vision. If that vision includes city investment and a stadium or creating a landmark for Norfolk, then show Bruce Thompson the door. But if the goal is minimal city investment and quick tax gains, then he is probably the right choice. But at the end of the day, it's not about residential input, but electing leaders to represent your needs and push your vision of the city.

[mintscraft56]

Alot of paragraphs being written in a battle of tug-of-war here. Stepping around your conflicts, how is the project(s) as a whole going. I have failed to keep up with this one for some time. Is the light rail still in play? 

[BFG]

4 minutes ago, mintscraft56 said:

Alot of paragraphs being written in a battle of tug-of-war here. Stepping around your conflicts, how is the project(s) as a whole going. I have failed to keep up with this one for some time. Is the light rail still in play? 

Yes. There's a community event going on now where the public can offer input.

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/383fe4eeb49a49fb9155c1859772d77e?fbclid=IwAR2Q-Cfs1beWPg51Rt3lFAFZyWY4cFvlxbWYrUExiIlSRPr2AvtO9EFcFmk

[SuffolkWahoo]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:37 PM, baobabs727 said:

This all seems rather personal for you. But why? It’s not really about you. It’s not about putting you in a box. It’s about economic reality. It’s about how lenders view us and our market. It’s about our lower than average incomes, income growth and job base expansion, population growth, and a local economy that is not well diversified.  

And…what is up with this quote: …”People like Bruce?” Say what?! LOL. How bizarre. What ever do you mean by that? And what is Bruce “like,” exactly?  

Allow me to inform you.  

Bruce Thompson is a self-made Norfolkian who has always dreamed big for his home region. Bruce Thompson has been honing his craft right here, locally, for three plus decades. Bruce Thompson has emerged, hands-down, as the best developer of high-end hospitality, restaurant, residential and entertainment in this region. Bruce Thompson routinely delivers projects of a scope, size and quality that no other local developer has ever delivered in his category before him. It’s not even close.  

It all started with Turtle Cay, The Hilton @31st St and the luxury oceanfront timeshare towers. With those developments, BT single-handedly redefined the hospitality and restaurant industry at the Beach. He put the industry on notice that they should and could aspire to produce much higher quality offerings. He showed his peers that taking a gamble on luxury can work here in Hampton Roads  

And with the success of those projects, BT  has continued building bigger, better, grander.  Bruce is the only one who could’ve delivered the spectacularly reimagined Cavalier with its $80+ million dollars in renovations.  BT is the only one who could have produced the likes of The Ocean Beach Club and the Marriott & Embassy Suites projects on the grounds of the Cavalier Compound.

Bruce is the only one who could’ve delivered and sold 35 stylish, modern, best-in-market condominiums ranging from 500,000 to 4+ Million dollars (!) in a market where no one, and I do mean no one, had been building any for-sale condos, much less at such a lofty price point —since the Great Recession! 14 years ago!

And we all know that BT never gave up on his hometown of Norfolk, either. No one but Bruce could have delivered the immaculate, exciting, trend-setting Hilton Norfolk, The Main. Indeed, others tried,  and failed.  

And need I remind you that BT is the one who proposed a super-regional airport for RVA and HRVA? Yes, THAT Bruce Thompson. The one who thinks big and then DELIVERS big. The same man who you seem to think has lost all hope and wants to put us all in some lowly box.  

Are you even talking about the same individual?!?

Bruce Thompson is a man of credentials and credibility. His words have weight to them. He is supremely, eminently qualified to make the aforementioned pronouncements about local efforts to land an arena.  Self-serving or not. Truth is truth.

You should never discount the possibility that he is correct. And you should never ignore the historical record in so doing.  

And BTW, even if you can’t shake the feeling of being put in a box, don’t take it so personally. Richmond has had its own well-publicized arena struggles, as have all of those other cities which BT cited in his presentation.

Good to hear from you Bruce!

[Norva757]

Light Rail extension will take 10 plus years to even get the construction started...they really need to get the next phase worked up now so it will not take as long. HRT is really not qualified to handle these things. They barely handle the bus and there is not many people there that truly understand how a rail road actually works. They pay very low and people that are qualified to run it are severely underpaid and turn it down. Light rail should be run by another company. A huge amount of incompetence in the management and operations of the alignment here

politics also are a big factor on this as well. This isn't just a private company that is doing this. It takes a lot of funding and approval from Feds and State level support

[mintscraft56]

6 hours ago, Norva757 said:

Light Rail extension will take 10 plus years to even get the construction started...they really need to get the next phase worked up now so it will not take as long. HRT is really not qualified to handle these things. They barely handle the bus and there is not many people there that truly understand how a rail road actually works. They pay very low and people that are qualified to run it are severely underpaid and turn it down. Light rail should be run by another company. A huge amount of incompetence in the management and operations of the alignment here

politics also are a big factor on this as well. This isn't just a private company that is doing this. It takes a lot of funding and approval from Feds and State level support

10 years for a little over 2 miles of track? God, No wonder why we are little competition to other cities besides our own neighbors. 10 years....I might move out by then. 

[Norva757]

58 minutes ago, mintscraft56 said:

10 years for a little over 2 miles of track? God, No wonder why we are little competition to other cities besides our own neighbors. 10 years....I might move out by then. 

majority of the funds are coming from federal and state grants...they will do study after study to release the funds to them

[Lluck002]

On 6/15/2022 at 12:02 AM, mistermetaj said:

In my view, planners are most effective when focusing on zoning (residential, commercial, mixed use, etc), transportation, architectural guidelines, and laying out the vision for the city. 

If a developer meets all the city requirements for the land they want to develop, then I don't care what an "old white man" or a "black lesbian" resident thinks. City officials were elected to take care of that and represent the people who elected them. Every development can't/won't cater to the oldest, youngest, or most diverse. Developers, by their very nature, will build what they think will generate profits.

In the case of this redevelopment, the city needs to come to the table with a vision. If that vision includes city investment and a stadium or creating a landmark for Norfolk, then show Bruce Thompson the door. But if the goal is minimal city investment and quick tax gains, then he is probably the right choice. But at the end of the day, it's not about residential input, but electing leaders to represent your needs and push your vision of the city.

Modern Planning is committed to fighting the wrongs of the past that were caused by previous Planners. A ton of inequities that exist today are due to how the built environment was structured in the Twentieth Century. I’m a huge proponent of Advocacy Planning. Urban Planning is all-encompassing and is literally social engineering through design and policy if you think about it.

I’m not saying that old white men’s needs are unimportant, but we need to understand that they’ve been getting their way and stepping on disenfranchised communities in the process. We must have a greater focus on communities which were ignored for so long to break cycles of poverty and lack of opportunity. Yes, local elected leaders enact policy, but Planners help develop it based on our expertise. And with Virginia Beach in particular, the current City Council makeup is NOT representative of the population, hence why the City was taken to the Supreme Court for violating the Voting Rights Act of 1965. I respect elder Planners but know that your education is outdated, and you’d see that if you take a new AICP Certification Exam. We are not to just pander to developers any longer; we are to truly serve The People and The Greater Good. I know y’all see me as a young, ambitious, naive Planner, but that just proves my point that many fighting me on this are out of touch with how the field has evolved. This isn’t supposed to be confrontational, so I do apologize that it may sound that way.

That said, I attended and helped host one of the recent Tide Light Rail Extension Public Input Workshops and the turnout was good and everyone, old, young, white, black, gay, straight, had very positive things to say about it!

[lammius]

8 hours ago, Lluck002 said:

Modern Planning is committed to fighting the wrongs of the past that were caused by previous Planners. A ton of inequities that exist today are due to how the built environment was structured in the Twentieth Century. I’m a huge proponent of Advocacy Planning. Urban Planning is all-encompassing and is literally social engineering through design and policy if you think about it.

I’m not saying that old white men’s needs are unimportant, but we need to understand that they’ve been getting their way and stepping on disenfranchised communities in the process. We must have a greater focus on communities which were ignored for so long to break cycles of poverty and lack of opportunity. Yes, local elected leaders enact policy, but Planners help develop it based on our expertise. And with Virginia Beach in particular, the current City Council makeup is NOT representative of the population, hence why the City was taken to the Supreme Court for violating the Voting Rights Act of 1965. I respect elder Planners but know that your education is outdated, and you’d see that if you take a new AICP Certification Exam. We are not to just pander to developers any longer; we are to truly serve The People and The Greater Good. I know y’all see me as a young, ambitious, naive Planner, but that just proves my point that many fighting me on this are out of touch with how the field has evolved. This isn’t supposed to be confrontational, so I do apologize that it may sound that way.

That said, I attended and helped host one of the recent Tide Light Rail Extension Public Input Workshops and the turnout was good and everyone, old, young, white, black, gay, straight, had very positive things to say about it!

I agree that all of this is true.

In addition, there are some perspectives that are overrepresented in today's public planning process.  I'm very involved in my local community and serve on the board of my community/neighborhood association.  We perform an annual community association survey.  The respondents to that survey, when compared to the Census demographics of the neighborhood, are very different.  For instance, 70% of the survey respondents say they own a car.  But in our neighborhood, 64% of households do not own a car according to the ACS.  If the voices of folks who come to community meetings are the only ones being heard, we could inadvertently develop the wrong kinds of transportation policies.  If the city's transportation planner came to our community group and said "what do you need?" 70% of our members might say "more parking," or "get rid of the bike lanes" but that feedback wouldn't capture the needs of the 64% who don't drive, and who might need safer crosswalks, or bike access, etc.  The city could take that info and make a "wrong" (as in, it works against the interests of most ppl) policy decision.    

In general, community associations and planning meeting-goers tend to be older, wealthier, more likely to own a car (or multiple cars), more likely to be a homeowner, and whiter than the population of the area.  That's true in my community here in NJ, and I'd bet most across the country.  That's not to say their opinions don't matter (they do!), but there are other opinions not making it to the table.  That can--and does--skew outcomes.  Achiving more balanced representation in these types of planning conversations is needed.  

[mistermetaj]

17 hours ago, Lluck002 said:

Modern Planning is committed to fighting the wrongs of the past that were caused by previous Planners. A ton of inequities that exist today are due to how the built environment was structured in the Twentieth Century. I’m a huge proponent of Advocacy Planning. Urban Planning is all-encompassing and is literally social engineering through design and policy if you think about it.

I’m not saying that old white men’s needs are unimportant, but we need to understand that they’ve been getting their way and stepping on disenfranchised communities in the process. We must have a greater focus on communities which were ignored for so long to break cycles of poverty and lack of opportunity. Yes, local elected leaders enact policy, but Planners help develop it based on our expertise. And with Virginia Beach in particular, the current City Council makeup is NOT representative of the population, hence why the City was taken to the Supreme Court for violating the Voting Rights Act of 1965. I respect elder Planners but know that your education is outdated, and you’d see that if you take a new AICP Certification Exam. We are not to just pander to developers any longer; we are to truly serve The People and The Greater Good. I know y’all see me as a young, ambitious, naive Planner, but that just proves my point that many fighting me on this are out of touch with how the field has evolved. This isn’t supposed to be confrontational, so I do apologize that it may sound that way.

That said, I attended and helped host one of the recent Tide Light Rail Extension Public Input Workshops and the turnout was good and everyone, old, young, white, black, gay, straight, had very positive things to say about it!

I'm not a planner so I don't know what advocacy planning is. Where does urban planning end and advocacy begin? If you're advocacy planning, is your goal for the betterment of the whole community, or only the groups by which you view as disenfranchised and protected? How does the role of an advocacy planner change once the guidelines for a plot of land or area is set?

I understand goals to remove segregation barriers like highways that split socioeconomic and racial groups, fight the effect of redlining, and build low income or affordable housing requirements into zoning guidelines. But I fail to see how any of those apply to this plot where developers made a pitch in compliance with the RFP. Yes, Bruce Thompson's plan is a disappointment. I hope it's not picked. But some of what you wrote makes me think it's less you hope IT (the proposal) is not picked and more you hope HE isn't picked.

Id be careful building an us vs them viewpoint based on immutable characteristics of a group of people. Usually those groups are not nearly as monolithic as you think they are and you risk becoming (or at least sounding like) that which you are working against.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lluck002]

On 6/23/2022 at 12:42 AM, mistermetaj said:

I'm not a planner so I don't know what advocacy planning is. Where does urban planning end and advocacy begin? If you're advocacy planning, is your goal for the betterment of the whole community, or only the groups by which you view as disenfranchised and protected? How does the role of an advocacy planner change once the guidelines for a plot of land or area is set?

I understand goals to remove segregation barriers like highways that split socioeconomic and racial groups, fight the effect of redlining, and build low income or affordable housing requirements into zoning guidelines. But I fail to see how any of those apply to this plot where developers made a pitch in compliance with the RFP. Yes, Bruce Thompson's plan is a disappointment. I hope it's not picked. But some of what you wrote makes me think it's less you hope IT (the proposal) is not picked and more you hope HE isn't picked.

Id be careful building an us vs them viewpoint based on immutable characteristics of a group of people. Usually those groups are not nearly as monolithic as you think they are and you risk becoming (or at least sounding like) that which you are working against.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wasn’t necessarily speaking against Bruce Thompson in particular. I was more just supporting the need for ambition, innovation, and equity in general, in response to some previous comments.

Sorry for getting everyone off-topic kind of! One last thing before I move over to a more relevant thread for these types of discussions: We launched the Public Input Campaign for Virginia Beach’s Comprehensive Plan Update and since we’ve been on the topic of public engagement and community needs, I felt it relevant to bow out by posting the digital flyer so that everyone here can participate and let their voice be heard

[BFG]

This just in: Norfolk’s dragging its feet on a major project. More at 11. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-military-circle-checks-20220707-t6lr3gdn2vaa5fojahzginegju-story.html

Looking at the quoted part, I have a feeling they’re gonna go with Bruce Thompson because 1) it won’t cost anything and 2) it’s the “safe” project. Prove me wrong, council. Prove me wrong. 

[Norva757]

Knew we would get screwed

[vdogg]

19 hours ago, BFG said:

This just in: Norfolk’s dragging its feet on a major project. More at 11. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-military-circle-checks-20220707-t6lr3gdn2vaa5fojahzginegju-story.html

Looking at the quoted part, I have a feeling they’re gonna go with Bruce Thompson because 1) it won’t cost anything and 2) it’s the “safe” project. Prove me wrong, council. Prove me wrong. 

 

I would rather have nothing at all...

[BFG]

I sent city council an email urging them to please consider the arena, but now knowing the cost of the three projects I expect them to go with Bruce. From here on out, I’ll keep my expectations low even though a third amphitheater in a 25-mile radius is silly. 

[Arctic_Tern]

I don't even need the arena, but Bruces concept of an Office Park+ is just awful. I'd rather them go with one of the other two proposals and just lop off the arena if it is what's driving up costs.

[vdogg]

6 hours ago, Arctic_Tern said:

I don't even need the arena, but Bruces concept of an Office Park+ is just awful. I'd rather them go with one of the other two proposals and just lop off the arena if it is what's driving up costs.

I like this. Keep some land open for a future arena if/when it becomes more economically feasible. I’d like to think that the reason they haven’t gone with Bruce outright is that even they realize how ridiculously subpar his proposal is.

[Norf Native]

Norfolk in negotiation with Pharrell's team.

Norfolk in ‘early negotiations’ with Pharrell’s development team to revitalize Military Circle mall, officials say – The Virginian-Pilot (pilotonline.com)

While a winning bidder has not yet been announced, Norfolk city officials say they have narrowed their focus to the Military Circle redevelopment proposal put forth by musician Pharrell Williams' development group. That proposal includes a 16,000-seat arena.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Norf Native
additional info

[BFG]

I stand corrected. Fingers crossed. 

[Arctic_Tern]

8 hours ago, Arctic_Tern said:

I don't even need the arena, but Bruces concept of an Office Park+ is just awful. I'd rather them go with one of the other two proposals and just lop off the arena if it is what's driving up costs.

 

54 minutes ago, Norf Native said:

Norfolk in negotiation with Pharrell's team.

Norfolk in ‘early negotiations’ with Pharrell’s development team to revitalize Military Circle mall, officials say – The Virginian-Pilot (pilotonline.com)

While a winning bidder has not yet been announced, Norfolk city officials say they have narrowed their focus to the Military Circle redevelopment proposal put forth by musician Pharrell Williams' development group. That proposal includes a 16,000-seat arena.

“Council has a preference towards what Wellness Circle is proposing. What we have to do now is figure out if we can make this financially feasible,” Filer said. “It’s very possible that, by the time we’re done doing our due diligence, council may say, ‘you know what, we aren’t going get there on an arena.’”

Boom. I like to think that Council read my comment and that helped grease the wheels.