Transportation, Infrastructure, and Traffic

[roads-scholar]

2 hours ago, Spartanburg Guy said:

I completed it. Here were my 5 suggestions (I would have done more but I could only list 5)

1. Adding a traffic signal at intersection of Fernwood-Glendale and Webber
2. Widening East Main St to 6 lanes
3. Widening Boiling Springs Rd to 6 lanes
4. Widening Parris Bridge Rd to 4 lanes
5. Repave Union St (and other roads)

 

Seems like good suggestions to me.  With regard to East Main help me understand where the additional lanes should be added?  

[NotNotSanti]

_{I don't think the areas I addressed fall within the geographical parameters looked for in the survey, but be that as it may:}

_{1. Add pedestrian bridges at the Pine Street/Main Street intersection.}

_{2. Add a stoplight and pedestrian cross walk at the Drayton Avenue/North Pine Street intersection.}

_{3. Add better lighting in the areas surrounding Converse University, especially Drayton Avenue/Converse Circle.} 

_{4. Add dedicated  electric charging stations.}  

_{5. Increase options for public transportation (i.e., more routes/stops for public busses)}

Edited March 8, 2022 by Santi

[NotNotSanti]

Accidental double post. Delete, please!

Edited March 8, 2022 by Santi

[Spartanburg Guy]

20 hours ago, roads-scholar said:

Seems like good suggestions to me.  With regard to East Main help me understand where the additional lanes should be added?  

I would say it needs it especially in the retail area starting before Aldi’s and extending to Webber Rd.

[timbach]

I can't imagine a scenario where widening E. Main Street would EVER be a good idea. People just need to move on from "widen this." All it does is induce MORE demand. So instead of having a busy 4 lane road (with turn lanes), you have a busy 6 lane road (with turn lanes). The only option is to find alternative ways to alleviate traffic. Whether that includes new roads elsewhere or public transit or walking/biking infrastructure, that's up to figuring out exactly who is on the road and where they are going and for what purpose to find the best option.

[Spartanburg Guy]

1 hour ago, timbach said:

I can't imagine a scenario where widening E. Main Street would EVER be a good idea. People just need to move on from "widen this." All it does is induce MORE demand. So instead of having a busy 4 lane road (with turn lanes), you have a busy 6 lane road (with turn lanes). The only option is to find alternative ways to alleviate traffic. Whether that includes new roads elsewhere or public transit or walking/biking infrastructure, that's up to figuring out exactly who is on the road and where they are going and for what purpose to find the best option.

I think WO Ezell Blvd. would be a nightmare if it was only 4 lanes.

[roads-scholar]

2 hours ago, timbach said:

I can't imagine a scenario where widening E. Main Street would EVER be a good idea. People just need to move on from "widen this." All it does is induce MORE demand. So instead of having a busy 4 lane road (with turn lanes), you have a busy 6 lane road (with turn lanes). The only option is to find alternative ways to alleviate traffic. Whether that includes new roads elsewhere or public transit or walking/biking infrastructure, that's up to figuring out exactly who is on the road and where they are going and for what purpose to find the best option.

Hmm...I've got to defend Spartanburg Guy on this one.  With all the new development happening on the eastside, the new high school, and no viable alternatives or reliever routes on the drawing board, adding lanes should be considered.  Simply widening roads is not always the solution but I would argue it  could make sense for East Main Street.   

Edited March 9, 2022 by roads-scholar

[Spartan]

I think the question is, what are the objectives of widening the road and could that money be better invested in other transportation infrastructure. Maybe widening Heywood/Skylyn or creating a new connection to extend Isom to Church Street somehow? Just brain storming. I realize there's a college and railroads  in the way.

I do think SCDOT will eventually want to widen East Main Street, and I hope when that day comes that Spartanburg will lobby for a true complete street design, because 6 lanes + a turn lane would be terrible for the built environment.

[Historyguy]

We can't pave our way to prosperity.  I would be interested to see the traffic counts on East Main compared to some other corridors.  I also am not sure that funneling 6 lanes of traffic into downtown, without a plan for what to do with them when they cross Pine St, is a good idea.  I've heard people for years talking about putting East Main in the section between Converse St. and Pine St. on a road diet - to 2 lanes.  Maybe that will or won't happen, but dumping 6 lanes of East Main into St. John and Pine - that doesn't sound wise.  

[Spartan]

Its 26k, while St John has about 15k, so most of the traffic is local (which is what you'd expect). For comparison, WO Ezell has about 35k east of Blackstock. To be honest I'm not really concerned about a widening happening, but the good thing is if there are ever rumblings about it we'll know a very long time in advance.

[roads-scholar]

18 hours ago, Spartan said:

I think the question is, what are the objectives of widening the road and could that money be better invested in other transportation infrastructure. Maybe widening Heywood/Skylyn or creating a new connection to extend Isom to Church Street somehow? Just brain storming. I realize there's a college and railroads  in the way.

I do think SCDOT will eventually want to widen East Main Street, and I hope when that day comes that Spartanburg will lobby for a true complete street design, because 6 lanes + a turn lane would be terrible for the built environment.

I'd love to see SCDOT, the city, and SPATS come up with creative solutions to East Main Street's traffic woes but honestly don't see that happening.  There's no imagination or long-term planning anymore.  I don't want to hear excuses about funding.    The growth we've all been predicting is now here and SCDOT is playing  catch up.

• Spartanburg should have had an eastside bypass built or at least planned decades ago.  
• I-26 should have been widened years ago.
• I-585 should have had a freeway-to-freeway connection with I-85 years ago.  
• I-585 is substandard and should have been reconstructed years ago.  
• Business 85's deteriorating overpasses are finally being reconstructed but their condition is so bad the highway is has to be closed.  
• Agree Heywood/Skylyn should be widened.  Not in 2040 but now.  

Okay, i've ranted long enough! 

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by roads-scholar

[Historyguy]

Well, the city and SPATS are doing a downtown traffic study, and council agreed to award the contract for the study, which should take 6-9 months, tonight.  While it is mostly about downtown, it will also look at truck traffic on Pine Street, and if there are alternatives (unlikely) and (I think) how traffic gets into downtown.  

SPATS has been focused on intersection improvements over the past few years, and somewhat less on corridors.  There's some work coming, I hope, on the Reidville Road corridor - but not in the city - way out between the westside and the Greenville County line.  

I agree that the east side bypass is way overdue, and it's not even on the list of projects for the next 6 years.  But we probably need to start making some noise about it before it gets so overbuilt that it's unfeasible due to the difficulty in right of way acquisition.  

[Spartan]

To be honest, there aren't really a lot of good solutions to East Main. The area with the most congestion (in Hillcrest) is all suburban shopping centers with relatively few shared driveway connections, so the problem is more of bad land planning than it is transportation, specifically. Ideally you'd have a continuation of the rear entrance to Hillcrest Shopping Center through the old movie theater, across Greenlawn Cemetery, and around to the back side of Walmart and maybe to Webber Rd. Do that, and connect all of those currently disconnected parcels, then you could really make a difference on East Main.

The area between Church and Fernwood/Drayton is a tougher nut to crack. You can use Heywood as a bypass for part of it, but since you have Converse Heights and the college on either side, there aren't any good ways to get a parallel street network through there. Maybe build an extension of Daniel Morgan north of Converse and around to Heywood? I dunno. 

We could also extend Isom St to Memorial Drive by using the topo change to go under the tracks. That neighborhood that was back there seems to be entirely gone, so the only challenge is the topic change.

None of these options are slam dunks, and all are expensive and might take some legislative support to build. The only way to justify the cost would be if it costs less than widening 2 miles of East Main. The alternative of widening East Main is painful to think about unless in includes a substantial widening with wide share use paths on both sides and generous planted medians to allow for large trees to grow and pedestrians to cross the street.

[westsider28]

Don't forget that the current 1-cent county sales tax for City/County facilities ends April 30, 2024.  There have already been murmurings of roads/infrastructure as the focus of a referendum to re-up the 1-cent tax.  That could potentially happen as early as 2023, I think (correct me if I'm wrong).  The current tax was projected to raise $225 million over 6 years and is ahead of those projections, so we could easily have ~$250M+ for infrastructure if a 6-year 1-cent sales tax re-up were to pass.  That's pretty significant.  Legally, it would need to come to a vote with a pretty detailed/comprehensive list of planned projects, which would require significant public input in advance.  Something to think about / possibly contact your County Councilperson about.

[Spartan]

IMO that is a great idea. But people freaked about about a $25 annual fee, so I'm skeptical.

[roads-scholar]

Spartanburg to hire downtown transportation consultant for downtown and corridor needs

https://www.goupstate.com/story/news/2022/03/21/spartanburg-hire-downtown-transportation-consultant-assess-needs-corridor-city-council-sc/7059221001/

Personally, I think this is long overdue.  

Thoughts?

Edited March 21, 2022 by roads-scholar

[Spartanburg Guy]

On 3/14/2022 at 3:12 PM, roads-scholar said:

I'd love to see SCDOT, the city, and SPATS come up with creative solutions to East Main Street's traffic woes but honestly don't see that happening.  There's no imagination or long-term planning anymore.  I don't want to hear excuses about funding.    The growth we've all been predicting is now here and SCDOT is playing  catch up.

• Spartanburg should have had an eastside bypass built or at least planned decades ago.  
• I-26 should have been widened years ago.
• I-585 should have had a freeway-to-freeway connection with I-85 years ago.  
• I-585 is substandard and should have been reconstructed years ago.  
• Business 85's deteriorating overpasses are finally being reconstructed but their condition is so bad the highway is has to be closed.  
• Agree Heywood/Skylyn should be widened.  Not in 2040 but now.  

Okay, i've ranted long enough! 

 

The Gateway project in Greenville was at least 20 years overdue. It’s a South Carolina political thing, nobody wants to pay a little extra sales tax.

[Spartan]

On 3/21/2022 at 4:48 PM, roads-scholar said:

Spartanburg to hire downtown transportation consultant for downtown and corridor needs

https://www.goupstate.com/story/news/2022/03/21/spartanburg-hire-downtown-transportation-consultant-assess-needs-corridor-city-council-sc/7059221001/

Personally, I think this is long overdue.  

Thoughts?

It's definitely needed, and it will set the city up for potentially funding the projects identified during the process. My hope is that the City wants to figure out what to do about Church Street between Wofford and Henry St.

[westsider28]

Finally looks like some attention is being turned to improving SPARTA bus service.  Short-term more shelters are planned at stops, and long-term (pending more funding) longer service hours and extended routes are planned.  City Council will be discussing it throughout the rest of the year.

[westsider28]

SPATS has put together a draft list of priority corridors in Spartanburg County.  Scroll down on the SPATS homepage to see a map.  These are corridors "anticipated to need transportation improvements within the next 25 years".  Final consideration by the SPATS Policy Committee is scheduled to take place August 8, 2022.  You can send questions or comments to Lisa Bollinger ([email protected]), so I encourage you to do so.

[Spartan]

I wouldn't be surprised to see more improvements to SPARTA in the coming years. IIJA has a TON of new $$ allocated for transit systems like ours.

[westsider28]

Spartanburg County Council has taken the first step toward extending a penny sales tax to pay for long-needed road fixes.  Last week, County Council agreed to create a six-member commission to draft a referendum that would allow voters to decide whether to continue a penny tax when the current one expires.  Three of the members will be appointed by the county, one by the city, and two from incorporated municipalities in the county.

The commission will present the referendum question to the county for approval. Then the referendum question will be submitted to the County Election Commission for adoption by Aug. 15. After that, the referendum question would appear on the November ballot.  The number of years the tax would be in effect remains to be decided.

Revenues from a penny tax – estimated at $40 million to $50 million a year – would pay for county-maintained road and bridge projects, not for state-maintained roads.

Many local leaders have already endorsed the penny sales tax extension for roads.

What do y'all think?  Obviously we have many road needs, and I'd likely be in-favor of this.  I would like to have some assurances that pedestrian and bike accommodations would be included in most/all road improvements.  I presume they'd use the SPATS priority list(s) to guide what the money would be spent on.

[Historyguy]

I am speculating about a few things here, but here goes.  My guess is County Council is hearing from their constituents about poor road conditions all around the county - and they are hearing about both county and state roads.  There's really no other way to fix the problems other than the capital projects local option sales tax.  They can't really go hundreds of millions into debt to fix them.  So, the sales tax is the only real option.  Now, anti-tax folks will complain and say, see, we told you, when you raised that penny tax it'd never go away!  Which is not exactly true, as I keep saying, that one goes away unless the voters approve another one.  

I can think of two SPATS lists - one is the projects in the Long Range Transportation Improvement Program (on the website linked above) - the one that uses DOT money (whatever the source) on state-maintained roads.  The other is a draft conceptual projects list that has been in the works for a while - and it is a mix of state and county roads.  And I am sure county engineering maintains a priority list for paving and improvements - I think I've heard them talk about that at city council meetings in the past.  

The other speculation - it's going to matter how the referendum is drafted - if it is solely for roads and bridges, or if it's written to be a bit more broad, which include some percentage for bike-ped infrastructure or at least allows for it to be used that way...  at least following the SCDOT complete streets policy.  I am hopeful for a slightly broader view.  

Also - if this is another 5-6 year plan, you're talking anywhere from $250-300 million - some of that will have to go to state road projects - where the funds improve a state road, or build something new and then hand it over to DOT.  Sadly people generally have no idea if they are on a state or county road, and they don't really care.  

Side note - this is where we get our east side bypass, if we are ever going to get it.  

We can also look at counties like Charleston and Horry, which have had local option sales taxes for roads, and see what mix of projects they undertook.  

[NotNotSanti]

Something that I find curious .... according to the latest GoUpstate article, the current iteration of the penny sales tax will have raised $225 million in funds.

Yet a WYFF article mentions the following:

Quote

"The dollar amount just to get our roads to an acceptable level is $500 million and that's just on county roads," said David Britt, Spartanburg County Council vice chairman. "If we were able to get (a referendum) passed by the voters of Spartanburg County, it would generate somewhere in the neighborhood of $450 to 500 million over the next six years and that right there is a game changer when it comes to growth and repair," Britt said.

Anyone know how we would go from having it raise $225M these last six years to double+ that the next six?

Is it from projected sales growth over the next few years from the higher number of residents and hopefully out of County visitors...?

It's just such a drastic projected jump!

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by NotNotSanti

[westsider28]

Good points @Historyguy .  Also York County has done a penny tax for roads.

And good question on that discrepancy @NotNotSanti  And that quote by Britt makes me think we're unlikely to see any transformative projects (like an eastside bypass). Seems like it would mostly be deferred maintenance catch-up (which is still needed, of course). Don't forget there will also likely be a several year lag (for engineering, ROW acquisition, etc) before projects start (much like the courthouse, etc).

I'd like to see some high-impact, low-cost (relatively) road links to help with connectivity, but that sort of thing doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere in the 2040 Plan.

Anyway, we definitely need more clarity about the kinds of projects that will be undertaken.  From what I've seen of other referendums, I think there (legally) has to be a pretty specific project list for the public to see before voting (so the revenue doesn't become an opaque slush fund).