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Specifics on "Ocean Square Proposal"


jacksonvillian

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Vic - I think Atkins, Vestcir, Main Street or anyone else  should be penalized for a longer construction period. It's an important consideration, and maybe the city has finally learned its lesson from previous disasters like that jazz hall in LaVilla (about 10 years "under renovation" and counting).

For example, what if Atkins decides to sell its condos for $750k-1million+ (a very real possibility considering how much they want to overpay for the site)? They'll demolish the library, and have a pre-sale trailor sitting on an empty lot for a couple of years.

One reason I think Vestcor got as many "points" as it did, is because it was the ONLY developer out of the 5 that actually has a solid track record. Obviously, we all have our favorites at this point. A few people, like me, like Main Street. Some like Peterbrooke. Most people on the forum like Ocean Square. But let's be honest with ourselves here... ALL THREE of the finalists have very serious financial question marks, and the JEDC seemed to realize that.

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Capt. - What makes you think Atkins doesn't have a solid track record? Serious financial question marks?? Have you seen the details of their proposal?? - I have... This company has successfully developed over 30 million bucks in commercial real estate in just the past 3 three years... They also have opened a pre-development account just for this project with 2 million in cash! Did Vestcor do that?

As for schedule, I think it is outrageous that they would be penalized for the development time of 270,000 sq ft of new construction. Sure Peterbrooke has a quick start time, all they are going to do is move into that hideous freakin' box... if they can even achieve their ridiculously over-estimated franchise sales projections that is.

I think we need to keep things in perspective, real estate development is a serious endeavor, particularly at this level. Let's not buy into this nonsense that the JEDC is dishin' out. Someone at the City WANTS Peterbrooke and is doing everything they can to put them in that building for cheap... This is politics plain and simple. The JEDC should have honored the terms of the RFP and awarded the project the based on THEIR critieria... evaluate the 5 proposals using the scoring matrix, fair and square. Ocean Square has already won the bid!!

Now, they are passing this off to another committee to try to undermine the process and give the building to Peterbrooke. READ BETWEEN THE LINES!!

- J

:angry:

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Based on their initial criteria and rankings, Adkins won this thing fair and square. Get over it and award them the building. Why should everyone go back to square one and start over from scratch. I'm also pretty skeptical of the intentions of a second review. Like Jacksonvillian said earlier, it seems like somebody's searching for a way to get Peterbrooke (which should have been 3rd) up to the top, despite their pie-in-the-sky profit plan.

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Based on their initial criteria and rankings, Adkins won this thing fair and square.  Get over it and award them the building.  Why should everyone go back to square one and start over from scratch.  I'm also pretty skeptical of the intentions of a second review.  It seems like somebody's searching for a way to get Peterbrooke (which should have been 3rd) up to the top, despite their pie-in-the-sky profit plan.

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Thanks Lake... I couldn't have said it better myself. I am very disturbed by this "starting from scratch" statement made by the vice-chair of the decision committee. The JEDC was very specific on their criteria and the respondents could not deviate from that. Now that a clear winner is named, the want to change the rules because they didn't get the winner they wanted!?!!

Bold New City of the South???

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Just as an aside, nearly everyone I've talked to about this RFP (and I bore everybody I know with my urban development talk) has supported the Peterbrooke idea. I was a bit surprised, since a chocolate factory seems so ... well ... stupid. But the general population seems to like the idea a lot.

Also, the Jax Historical society will probably be lobbying for the Peterbrooke plan, since it is the only option which leaves the building truly intact.

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Just as an aside, nearly everyone I've talked to about this RFP (and I bore everybody I know with my urban development talk) has supported the Peterbrooke idea. I was a bit surprised, since a chocolate factory seems so ... well ... stupid. But the general population seems to like the idea a lot.

Also, the Jax Historical society will probably be lobbying for the Peterbrooke plan, since it is the only option which leaves the building truly intact.

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Yes, but don't you think that's because the media has been pumping this thing like crazy... even after yesterdays scoring, channels, 4, 12, and 17 were all waving chocolate pretzels in the air at the beginning of their news broadcasts.

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Just as an aside, nearly everyone I've talked to about this RFP (and I bore everybody I know with my urban development talk) has supported the Peterbrooke idea. I was a bit surprised, since a chocolate factory seems so ... well ... stupid. But the general population seems to like the idea a lot.

Also, the Jax Historical society will probably be lobbying for the Peterbrooke plan, since it is the only option which leaves the building truly intact.

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I think its just as important for the city to work with all of these groups, to get them located in downtown, regardless of where they place. If that's taken into consideration, it can be easily pointed out that Peterbrooke's plan is better suited in becoming a part of the Landing's redevelopment plans or the Bay Street Town Center. After all, they aren't the Maxwell House Coffee plant, how much space does Peterbrooke really need?

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Yes, but don't you think that's because the media has been pumping this thing like crazy... even after yesterdays scoring, channels, 4, 12, and 17 were all waving chocolate pretzels in the air at the beginning of their news broadcasts.

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I don't watch the local news much anymore ... and neither do most Jacksonvillians ;). Are you being literal? Or just upset over a perceived editorial slant? I can only imagine Tom Wills sitting there waving a pretzel. :lol:

I do read the Times Union, and as Vicupstate mentioned, their article on Peterbrooke could be interpreted as a negative.

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I don't watch the local news much anymore ... and neither do most Jacksonvillians ;). Are you being literal? Or just upset over a perceived editorial slant? I can only imagine Tom Wills sitting there waving a pretzel.  :lol:

I do read the Times Union, and as Vicupstate mentioned, their article on Peterbrooke could be interpreted as a negative.

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Dead Serious!

:wacko:

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Just as an aside, nearly everyone I've talked to about this RFP (and I bore everybody I know with my urban development talk) has supported the Peterbrooke idea. I was a bit surprised, since a chocolate factory seems so ... well ... stupid. But the general population seems to like the idea a lot.

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I would be interested in hearing what their comments were. Also, what is their background? Are these people architects, R.E. developers, and business people or are they random members of the general population?

Since this is a public building, everyone's input has some value, but by and large most typical suburban residents in Jax don't see the big picture in regards to downtown redevelopment. If they can't see themselves giving up their yards and living in the urban core, then they might not see any value in more people living downtown. However, if there are more people living downtown, and that creates an environment where entertainment, restaurants, nightlife, musuems, etc. concregate and thrive, then and only then will they see the value in it.

I think one thing that needs to be said is this. Peyton is on record in favor of reducing incentives for downtown redevelopment. The Atkins proposal is the only one that meets or exceeds the appraised value of this property. In affect it is the ONLY proposal that is not seeking incentives.

BTW, does anyone know what happens after the July 8th selection (assuming that they don't pass the buck again, and narrow it down to two choices)? I assume the city council and Peyton have to sign off on in it? Anyone know for certain?

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I'd agree with Captain - No one I spoke to liked any other idea but the Peterbrooke plan.  It's not my favorite, but I think what people like is that it is different.

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If this is so appealing to people, why doesn't the one in St. Augustine draw more people? I bet most people don't even know it's there. To me this seems like something the locals will do one time, and then probably never again. There is only a few sq feet (see the plans on the Hardwick site) devoted to the visitor experience. It looks like the visitors will merely look at a few exhibits and look down on the production line and that's about it.

The cafe is small, similiar to any one of a number eatries already downtown. Only, this one is tucked away from the street. This idea seems very "small town" to me, like my 2nd grade visit to a bread plant. I'll take the 3 story movie theater, restaurant and club over that.

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^^ Very well said Lakelander.

Charlotte is a prime example of what you are talking about. The streets use to be dead after 5pm M-F and weekends. Once the population reached 10k, a major grocery store moved in and nightlife started appearing. Later came a major cullinary school with dorms. Now there are about a dozen 40+ story residential buildings in the works.

It all happens when you get people LIVING downtown.

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I cant believe this is even an argument....

WHy Peterbrook needs such a prime location is beyond me. There is plenty of space availible in the CURRENT version of the landing. There is an inappropriate slant by people that realy dont understand what it means to be downtown. This whole changing the rules to se who realy won crap is bogus. the differance between 57 and 52 i wouldnt thinkg is very close. even if you had a standard accepted margin of error of 5% +- that would put Ocean at about 54.5 at its WORST and peterbrook at 54.5 at its BEST. Very few people consider the best as an example case. It is possible the those that want peterbrook looked at this and said, well its possible there is a tie.

as a side note... the flip side... that would mean Ocean would be about 60 at its best and peterbrook would be at about 49.5 at its worst.

Personally I dont see how its a tie...

Only on the EXTREME case can it even eb considered close. Even then it doesnt put peterbrook above. and that seriously gives peterbrook every statistical advantage and ocean every statistical disadvantage

(sorry guys, degree in physics makes me look at the numbers in probablities. and I had to share it because it is just nearly impossible to say it is too close to tell. not exact statistical values, but close enough where you can tell..)

Seriously... who wants to run for Mayor in here, our current "leadership" is crap right now...

said it before...

TUC?

come on... you can do it...

cheers

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No Mayoral bid for me.. Too much left to do in the real world. By the way, the riverwalk was awesome Sat. Come out every sat this summer and you'll be impressed, I think.

Anyway, if you didn't see the score sheets, the TU put them in a pdf in their online article.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._19029918.shtml

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I can't speak for TUC, but somehow I doubt he will be spurred to run for mayor because the city took extra time to consider his own development idea ... instead of instantly awarding the project to his competitor. ;)

edit: nevermind - see above

Also, let me keep playing devil's advocate here. Several people have said something to this effect: "Peterbrooke shouldn't win because it doesn't NEED this location. It could theoretically build its chocolate factory at x, y, or z."

The same logic could be applied to Atkins. They don't NEED to build a residential tower there. There are dozens of other sites that could work just as well if not better/cheaper. If you apply that logic to Peterbrooke, you should apply it to Atkins. (The only finalist who truly needs that specific site is TUC's group)

People should argue against Peterbrooke on the basis of finances, not on the "needs." That's the wrong can of worms to open if you support Atkins.

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