Specifics on "Ocean Square Proposal"

[jjoshjl]

arg...my hand raising guy came out crappy

[vicupstate]

Proposals narrowed to three

A needless delay, but at least two bad proposals are off the table. I would like to see the rankings for each one by each category.

The higher purchase price, plus the additional taxes that Ocean Square would pay versus Peterbrooke, lead me to believe the two proposals are not at all comparable. Do they really think that people will flock to Jax just to visit a chocalate factory? They would have to spend at least one night in a hotel to have the impact at anything close to what Peterbrooke is claiming. How many people drive to Jax for the sole purpose of touring the Anheuser-Busch plant?

[Captain Obvious]

The scores of the five developers, based on a matrix filled out by 11 members of the Downtown Committee and the JEDC:

[jjoshjl]

whew.... No Fund....

Thank you

thank you

thank you

Come on Ocean...

[Dale]

The scores of the five developers, based on a matrix filled out by 11 members of the Downtown Committee and the JEDC:

[bobliocatt]

The scores of the five developers, based on a matrix filled out by 11 members of the Downtown Committee and the JEDC:

[vicupstate]

Maybe I'm just impatient, but why is this process dragging out so long?  It was pretty obvious the day they all were announced, over a month ago, that the proposals by Vestcor and The Fund were the worst.  Get it over with already!

Btw, how in the world is Peterbrooke ranking so high?  I can't believe city leaders actually think a chocolate factory by a little locally known company is going to turn into the next Ripley's Museum, attracting thousands of visitors into downtown or better than bringing in a specialty grocery store that's needed to support downtown living, everybody claims to want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AMEN ! I totally agree. Also, on the basis of downtown housing this is how they stack up:

Atkins/Ocean Square: 70 units

MainBranch LLC: 20 units

Peterbrooke: 0 units

Political pull or blackmail is the ONLY way Peterbrooke can still be in the running, let alone in second place.

At least now the Fund can concentrate on the Marble Trio.

[Urban_Legend]

Thanks for the rendering, Lake! I like the first and second floors of Ocean Square; they look like they can hold some interesting retail space! But I'm really not feelin' that half-wall facing Forsyth Street. That was one of my biggest peeves with the old library: the wall facing Forsyth.

Oh well, bring on some decisiveness! I want this RFP crap to end!

[vicupstate]

not so sure if this what Jacksonville really needs, because there is nothing better than going from bad to worse?

[vladittude0583]

I definitely agree that I think as far as Peterbrooke's concerned, they should build their "chocolate factory" in the Landing instead. This would definitely make it a more pleasing atmosphere to visit such a location and so forth.

[Jaylon]

... there is no way a building of that size could be built on the site and not block most if not all of the views from 11 East.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, it will definitely block some views, specifically mine, but hey i was suppose to be on the 4th floor of the Carling facing who knows what, so i shouldn't even have the view I have now. If i'm still here then, maybe they'll discount my rent.. again. I just wanted a nice place close to work, the view wasn't even a concern. But anyway here are some current views from my window and you can see how the people facing the alley between the library and 11 E would lose their view.

-J

[bobliocatt]

Great pics.

[asonj23]

Great shots Jaylon!! I was VERY close to making 11E my new home but decided it was a tad to pricy for my budget at the time.

It appears (judging from the rendering and your first pic) that the tower portion of Ocean Square will rise at about the point of the existing recessed cutout open patio are of the library. Based on that I would say that the majority of your view will remain intact, however, those apartments further back off of Forsyth will see their neighbor's windows.

[bobliocatt]

i am just dismayed at the language of the architecture>>>  i feel is is inappropriate for the area??  believe me, i would love to see all of the vacant lots in town to be built out.  more bars and lounges!!  more restaurants!!  let's just use the right language...  whether you're a modernist or a Klutho addict or want to reinvent the "florida cracker" language>>>  they are all much better than some "new england" anomoly???  let's build!!  i have never believed that there is such a  parking problem in Downtown that we would need surface parking!  as Tony said>>>  it's not a parking probelm, it's a walking problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You make a lot of sense. Maybe the Atkins Group (Ocean Square) should take their current building program and allow some members of the Emerging Architects group to develop an alternative elevation.

[vicupstate]

Looks like the next 'cut' is July 8. A decision final??

Down to three options

[scongro]

I am a little surprised the Vestcor pla was eliminated. Not that I think it was that great, but I didn't think it was the fourth best, either.

[bobliocatt]

The market is getting to a point where we don't have to subsize every downtown development.

With groups offering the city up to $5 million in cash to buy the building, Vestcor's proposal which required the city to demolish the building with taxpayer money, then give them the site for free didn't make much sense.

[Viper]

Back when the Landing first opened, a fudge factory was hugely popular. I'm completely and utterly baffled why Peterbrooke has not taken its place.

Do they need a building the size of Hayden Burns? If they aren't even going to occupy the current volume in sq footage, why are they even being considered?

Do they have plans to fill in the rest of the building right away with other tenants if they don't use the whole footprint?

Ocean is still the best choice by far. However, considering the history, price and availability of other lands for those 5 projects, I'd prefer to have something more grandeur placed there.

[Metro242]

Unless Peterbrooke plans to make a hundred singing orange midgets a part of their chocolate factory, I can't possibly imagine how it could be as attractive of an option as Ocean Square.

Some of the numbers that I read in the paper today that Peterbrooke was claiming just seemed proposterous. This quote in particular seemed borderline outlandish to me:

____________________________________

"Now Peterbrooke, as part of its bid to buy the historic Haydon Burns Library downtown, says it will roll out a massive national franchising venture and local expansion it claims will create 72 new stores in the Southeast in just three years, astronomically increase its revenue from $3.5 million to $40.7 million and create a downtown destination that the company claims would pump $78 million into the Jacksonville economy.

By franchising, Peterbrooke expects to increase its earnings from $25,000 to $16 million.

And that, the company says, is a conservative estimate".

The Florida Times Union

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._19021656.shtml

______________________________________

Now I am all for giving a break to a company on good faith, but I have a hard time believing that:

A) A company with $25,000 in earnings can, in a "conservative" estimate turn those earnings into SIXTEEN MILLION dollars in three years.

B) A chocolate plant can pump SEVENTY EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS into the Jacksonville economy in five years time.

I have nothing against Peterbrooke, but for a company who's annual earnings amount to $25,000 to make any claim with the number $78,000,000 in it seems at best optimistic and at worst insane.

[vicupstate]

JEDC selects three for next round in Burns project

Reading this and the scores that accompanied it posted below (Gee T-U couldn't you translate it into a legible version?) made my blood boil.

Scoring for proposals

This would be laughable if it weren't so serious. Where do I begin?

The idea that a key factor in the decision is "construction schedule" is ironic. I wonder how many points the city would give itself for "construction schedule" on the new courthouse? or the equestrian center?

Atkins/Ocean Square is building an entire new structure of 70 for sale units with a price tag of $42million. Peterbrooke is merely doing a renovation to the interior. Obviously pre-sales are required for Atkins, whereas Peterbrooke has no such requirement. Yet Atkins is being penalized for that.

No consideration at all was given to the fact that Atkins would pay millions in additional taxes on their new building compared to what Peterbrooke would pay on the existing building. I figure about a $5 million difference over 15 years. A similiar amount would go to the school district.

The scores given to Atkins for Purchase Price, which is in no way subjective except for the Fund's proposal, ranged from a low of 15 to the maximum of 35. One person gave Vestcor 5 points when they are paying NOTHING for the building and are requiring the city to pay demolition. This is a case of "it is what it is" and the scores should have been exactly proportional to the offers (ie a 40% higher offer would get 40% more points).

I think it is terribly wrong to not list the people that gave the scores. This involves disposal of a government-owed asset in which money is not the only deciding factor. Are there any conflicts of interest? No way to know without knowing who made the decision. So much for the Sunshine laws.

I have more to say on this, but time constraints me at the moment. This whole process has been very eye-opening and extremely disappointing. I fear that the Ocean Square proposal was discounted because the reviewers don't believe that people actually want to live downtown. A sad statement considering the city should be the first and foremost advocate for downtown living.

[Captain Obvious]

Vic - I think Atkins, Vestcir, Main Street or anyone else should be penalized for a longer construction period. It's an important consideration, and maybe the city has finally learned its lesson from previous disasters like that jazz hall in LaVilla (about 10 years "under renovation" and counting).

For example, what if Atkins decides to sell its condos for $750k-1million+ (a very real possibility considering how much they want to overpay for the site)? They'll demolish the library, and have a pre-sale trailor sitting on an empty lot for a couple of years.

One reason I think Vestcor got as many "points" as it did, is because it was the ONLY developer out of the 5 that actually has a solid track record. Obviously, we all have our favorites at this point. A few people, like me, like Main Street. Some like Peterbrooke. Most people on the forum like Ocean Square. But let's be honest with ourselves here... ALL THREE of the finalists have very serious financial question marks, and the JEDC seemed to realize that.

[vicupstate]

Vic - I think Atkins, Vestcir, Main Street or anyone else

[Captain Obvious]

As for the Jazz Hall, who is causing the delays?......the city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not true at all. Several years ago, the city gave away the property to a group of private developers who had GREAT plans for the building. But it turned out that the developers didn't know what they were doing and they ran out of money.

Lastly, on what do you base this statement: " But let's be honest with ourselves here... ALL THREE of the finalists have very serious financial question marks, and the JEDC seemed to realize that."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, Ocean Square wants to develop a $42-47+ million dollar building (depending on if the land price was included or not). The building is only 70 units. Do the Math. That is a serious financial question mark.

It's not my purpose to be confrontational. Anyone is welcome to disagree. However, I personally consider $700,000+ units in a non-riverfront northbank location an extremely risky proposition. Especially with all the other downtown projects coming online at cheaper prices.

But again, I'm not try to drag Ocean square through the mud. I think it's an okay proposal, and maybe might even be better than the other two finalists. However, my point is, Ocean square is not the far-and-away best and only reasonable choice. Reasonable people (and reasonable committee members) might happen to like one of the other two more.

[Captain Obvious]

But anyway, instead of arguing about which RFP is better ... what we really need to be doing is buying this surface lot (shown in Jaylon's pic below) and building a nice residential project there.

[vicupstate]

That's not true at all. Several years ago, the city gave away the property to a group of private developers who had GREAT plans for the building. But it turned out that the developers didn't know what they were doing and they ran out of money.

Well, Ocean Square wants to develop a $42-47+ million dollar building (depending on if the land price was included or not). The building is only 70 units. Do the Math. That is a serious financial question mark.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The city gave the Jazz Hall to that group when the LaVilla redevelopment was just starting out. It was in terrible condition and I seriously doubt that anyone else wanted it. That is not the case here. The city has held title for awhile and has dilly-dallyed with the historical folks in Tallhassee, and with itself over whether to move it, for a couple of years at least. That was what I was referring too.

The $42 million figure is most likely the total value of the property once the units have been sold, not their total cost of purchase and construction. The taxable value would still be 42 million. The penthouse units will sell in excess of 1 million, which brings the average up. Also, the restaurant/club, retail space and movie theater will all generate considerable support toward the total costs they will bear. The per unit investment does seem high, but I still say they are more likely to reach that, than Peterbrooke will increase it's value 640 times what it's current earnings are.