SouthEnd High-Rise Projects

[CLT @❤️]

28 minutes ago, DMann said:

If you try to run from the homeless or less fortunate of our brethren you will need to buy a place in a gated community.  I have lived downtown since 1999 and have experienced homeless on the streets.  It is not as huge problem as many think.  Many on the streets have mental issues and that is sad that they cannot get, or in some cases accept, the help they need.  

You hit nail  on the head here. We have worked first hand to provide shelter for our “citizens without housing” for over a decade and can testify firsthand that many of these citizens are quite content to remain in their current situation, and refuse any and all attempts at shelter provision. Case in point, the gentleman under the bus stop at BofA Corporate, 100 N. Tryon has no interest in moving from his current bus stop shelter.  He will accept food, and funds, but refuses to move. And yes there are mental issues and it’s very sad. 

[j-man]

SouthEnd is leaving Uptown in the dust with quality developments that are changing the streetscape and foot traffic. 

[stw52]

2 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

This is not so long ago.

 

For us newer to Charlotte, roughly how long long ago was this. Impressed with Southend's endless change

[Richhamleigh, DC]

34 minutes ago, stw52 said:

For us newer to Charlotte, roughly how long long ago was this. Impressed with Southend's endless change

Light rail opened in 2004?  Since then.

[nakers2]

3 minutes ago, Phillydog said:

Light rail opened in 2004?  Since then.

2007, but yes. However it has gone through the roof in the past 5 years or less. Most of the first developments post light rail were of the Texas Donut variety, the Arlington being the notable exception. Even the newer stick built structures are of a higher standard than in the past. A few examples are the apartments where The Union is located, and Camden Southline, and my brother's piss stained building, MAA 1225 (formerly 1225 S. Church.) Recently the density and growth is insane, and knowing someone who lives near the Carolina Foods plant, there is MUCH more room for growth. 

[atlrvr]

I don't remember any of that level of seediness (sure, more vagrancy behind industrial uses along South Blvd south of Tremont).  I moved into the neighborhood in 2004, and everything north of East Blvd was very clean, and similar to today.  East Blvd itself has always been nice, going back to at least the mid-90's.  In fact, a Whole Foods before they opened at South Park, the first site they considered in Charlotte was at East/Scott, where the condo building is now.

Worthington and Tremont, were still a mixed-bag then (2004), and a significant discount to the North side of East.   I wouldn't call it urban pioneers, but there were a lot of DIYer's fixing up those bungalows, next to lots of either long time residents in dilapidated houses and rental houses that sort of took whatever tenants they could get.

McDonald and Magnolia were JUST seeing the first couple of tear downs (probably started 2005).  Before that, it was all working class bungalows with quite a few drug houses.  Ideal Way was considered an ironic name, given no one would have thought anything about it was Ideal.  Kirkwood (next to the Food Lion) was uniformly called Crackwood.

All that said, even back in the mid-90's South Blvd was more a mix of light industrial, and some restaurants and retail.   Atherton Mill has been a thing since  early-mid-90's, with "South End Brewery" before micro brews were on every street corner.  (Edit:  Should have given a shout of to Dilworth Brewing Co which I think actually opened in the late 1980's where Bakersfield is today, as the OG microbrew house)

The biggest change to "lower South End" though was Lowe's and the condos wrapping it back in 2005.  It eliminated a lot of businesses where the vagrants did hang out in the back, and kicked-off the rapid change of residential character of Magnolia and south of there.

That's my brief history, but would say Tarhoosier's description is probably at least 1980's.

My limited memory of the 1980's in Dilworth were limited to Charlotte Symphony play at the bandshell in the lake at Freedom Park (and obligatory climb on both the locomotive and Army tank beforehand) and Charlotte O's AA baseball team, where Olmstead Park is today.....happy moments, but at that age I would have thought a streetwalker was just someone dressed up "fancy".
 

[nakers2]

12 minutes ago, atlrvr said:

I don't remember any of that level of seediness (sure, more vagrancy behind industrial uses along South Blvd south of Tremont).  I moved into the neighborhood in 2004, and everything north of East Blvd was very clean, and similar to today.  East Blvd itself has always been nice, going back to at least the mid-90's.  In fact, a Whole Foods before they opened at South Park, the first site they considered in Charlotte was at East/Kenilworth, where the apartment building is now.

Worthington and Tremont, were still a mixed-bag then (2004), and a significant discount to the North side of East.   I wouldn't call it urban pioneers, but there were a lot of DIYer's fixing up those bungalows, next to lots of either long time residents in dilapidated houses and rental houses that sort of took whatever tenants they could get.

McDonald and Magnolia were JUST seeing the first couple of tear downs (probably started 2005).  Before that, it was all working class bungalows with quite a few drug houses.  Ideal Way was considered an ironic name, given no one would have thought anything about it was Ideal.  Kirkwood (next to the Food Lion) was uniformly called Crackwood.

All that said, even back in the mid-90's South Blvd was more a mix of light industrial, and some restaurants and retail.   Atherton Mill has been a thing since  early-mid-90's, with "South End Brewery" before micro brews were on every street corner.  (Edit:  Should have given a shout of to Dilworth Brewing Co which I think actually opened in the late 1980's where Bakersfield is today, as the OG microbrew house)

The biggest change to "lower South End" though was Lowe's and the condos wrapping it back in 2005.  It eliminated a lot of businesses where the vagrants did hang out in the back, and kicked-off the rapid change of residential character of Magnolia and south of there.

That's my brief history, but would say Tarhoosier's description is probably at least 1980's.

My limited memory of the 1980's in Dilworth were limited to Charlotte Symphony play at the bandshell in the lake at Freedom Park (and obligatory climb on both the locomotive and Army tank beforehand) and Charlotte O's AA baseball team, where Olmstead Park is today.....happy moments, but at that age I would have thought a streetwalker was just someone dressed up "fancy".
 

Interesting account, however I have to contest that the Lowe's was built that early on, I can't recall exactly, but I believe it was built post light rail for sure. 

[atlrvr]

@Conformity can tell us for sure since he developed the condos.  I was on the DCDA board, I believe  starting in Jan 2006, and the vote on whether to support it or not was month a few months prior.

Looking back at UP, there was a thread on it.  Looks like clearing those industrial buildings (and I think car battery store) didn't actually happen until 2Q06, so we'll split the difference on timing.

 

[kermit]

2 hours ago, nakers2 said:

Interesting account, however I have to contest that the Lowe's was built that early on, I can't recall exactly, but I believe it was built post light rail for sure. 

Lowes opened up in late 2008. I remember this because Monty Ritchie of Conformity Corp was a contributor here and he generously gave a bunch of UPers a tour just before things were finished. I remember atlrvr greeting a UPer who worked at Wachovia with the question “so, hows the new CEO?” shortly after Ken Thompson was fired. 

I also remember that Conformity Corp got super squeezed by changes to mortgage underwriting requirements following the crash in 2008. The changes suddenly meant that there was too much commercial space in Southborough for federally backed mortgages to be written for the residential sales. Despite the bad timing, this was a truly remarkable and transformative project, and it is still used as a case study in MBA classes today.

Edited November 17, 2021 by kermit

[kermit]

I moved to McDonald in the summer of 2000. My 1,000 sq ft house cost $135k. The house was built in the 40s, I believe I was the second owner. The previous family raised three kids there, but it felt tiny for the three of us.  

It was clear to most that McDonald and the Sunset Hills area (Iverson, Dorthy, Diana streets) were on the up, but most occupants had been around for a while and were working class (my neighbor Bruce had retied from driving a dump truck at a Martin Marietta quarry and spent his days sitting in a lawn chair in his front yard, smoking cigars, reading the Observer NASCAR section wearing nothing but his boxers). I seemed to be part of an early wave of young professionals (a few bankers, a few PR folks) moving in as long-term residents died off. I don't remember any drug houses, but I would have probably been oblivious to them anyway. I agree with atlrvr, tear downs got started around 2005 on McDonald and Magnolia and many older residents started to cash out at that point. It was also clear then what Tremont and Worthington would become within a few years, although houses could still be had for less than $200k up until 2004. I ended up moving a couple blocks away from McDonald near Tremont 3 years later when my wife stumbled across the right fixer upper. Immediately following that neighborhood prices leapt.  

There were a couple of homeless folks around the neighborhood back then (Eric was a Vietnam vet who had good a bad sides), but the neighborhood was already solid upper-middle class by then. Southend was a very different story. Other than the Spaghetti Factory (with the trolley inside), Pike's  and Southend Brewery there wasn't much business activity. I never really felt unsafe walking over there after dark but there were quite a few vacant warehouses that homeless people resided in (the building between Sycamore and Spectrum was a de facto shelter, its now home to a Sushi place). I really don't feel like much has changed on East blvd or South (north of East/West) in those 21 years (the Texaco station is kinda hinky now as it was then). But South of E/W Macs (which opened in 2007 I believe) really changed the area. Many times I walked through this part of town late after a few drinks, never had any tense moments.

In short, Dilworth was a mixed income, but upcoming neighborhood 22 years ago. I don't think the vibe has changed much, except my neighbors are much wealthier now. The exception is my neighbors tend to raise their eyebrows when work on my house (e.g. Sunday power tools or DIY masonry in the front yard) but all that was pretty standard back in the day.

Needless to say, Southend is 100% different. It did begin its modern evolution before the Blue Line opened in November 2007 (the Common Market sprouted up in 2005?). Some apartments began to emerge around 2003 (the very first were on the Dilworth side off McDonald and Magnolia and South), but most of the Southend multifamily like Spectrum got started in the depths of the real estate recession in mid-2009.  My general memory of Southend from the early 2000s was as an abandoned place (that was very photogenic) rather than a threatening one. 

Wilmore may have seen the biggest changes over the past two decades. Street gunfire was not uncommon, a friend of mine had to replace several front window panes in the early 2000s.

I did hear many stories from the old guys at work talking about Trade and Tryon from the early 80s. I never saw it myself, but all of those stories could be broadly summarized as "Hookers and Blow" (but not the fancy kind)

[sorry about turning the new high-rise thread into the old-guy hour]

Edited November 18, 2021 by kermit

[videtur quam contuor]

The time I referred to was from my life in Dilworth beginning in 1973. This extended to maybe 1985. Hard to be exact about these things. The "family" who lived at 329 Kingston were renting their 12-13 year old daughter to visiting men.  There were working girls living and working from inside the house at 500 Kingston and we were accepting of people living their lives but when the tractor trailer pulled to the curb and idled while he was inside we drew the line and forced a change. Three large houses contiguous on the south side of the 300 block of E Kingston were for mentally addled veterans discharged from the Salisbury hospital but were not able to live independently. Each house had a keeper and a common kitchen and the men walked about the block and smoked and watched tv. There is a story about an attempted street robbery of me around this time that is much better expressed in person. The Dilworth Theater next to where the Wells Fargo branch is now had recently converted to kung-fu movies which was a phenomenon that lasted a few years and appealed to mostly black youth.

https://www.polygon.com/22660909/kung-fu-movies-1970s    WAAAAy less quality than Bruce Lee movies.

The porn shop was in the building at the corner of Park and South were the sandwich/Beijing restaurant is now. Picketed by the community association but it lingered for maybe two years. A neighborhood alcoholic who slept in the open, and whose street name I cannot recall, travelled everywhere, often shirtless, with his dog named Boy, a german shepherd. Washed in business taps, ate little, used his government check for cheap wine and died in a vacant lot sometime during this period. When the CVS opened at Park /South the manager made an important statement that no screwtop wines would be sold. Street walkers used the East/South intersection after dark for their business address. The convenience store at South and East and also one at Euclid and East were of the type I described and similar to what one sees today in the areas of desperation in small towns in our region, as well as elsewhere. That is how I learned about the food/alcohol requirement (at that time). 

The first Dilworth Neighborhood Jubilee was in 1973 (as I recall) and was created to highlight the changes underway. Young people had moved in and were updating  homes while operating on a shoestring. Jubilee was to attract others to see what was available in the neighborhood. It has been a very long time since a Home Tour home was an in-progress reno or a homeowner working their own home while living in it.

By 1990 there were a few remaining isolated houses of folks from that previous time in Dilworth clinging despite the inexorable tide. The Wilmore renaissance was from about that time, 1990 or so. Prior to that the train tracks separated Dilworth and Wilmore just as tracks in small towns separated the better classes from their servants. A different neighborhood and little shared experience. I drove around Wilmore in 1998 maybe, looking for a house to flip and there was not one for sale sign in the entire neighborhood. Not one. I drove every street, and knew then that Tony Pressley and others had made the investment before me. As usual, late to the party.

I hope this answers your question about when these events occurred. I have lots more tales from those young , dispossessed, and politically alien times.

[deleted account]

The last two posts are fascinating. I'll never stop kicking myself for buying in Weddington instead of Dilworth when I moved from San Diego in 2004. What a dope!

[videtur quam contuor]

The most common words I heard from that time about people considering moving to Dilworth were "I would love to but my wife..."

[stw52]

@tarhoosier and @kermit thanks guys. Fascinating stuff. I moved here in 2013 and lived on W Tremont. How it has changed since them, but extraordinary transformation since the time you describe. Many thanks for documenting.   Charlotte does deserve its own museum for this stuff.

[CLT2014]

9 minutes ago, stw52 said:

 Charlotte does deserve its own museum for this stuff.

https://charlottemuseum.org/exhibits/: You may enjoy the "Charlotte Neighborhoods" exhibit and the "Charlotte: Signs of Home" exhibit. 

Also check out: https://www.museumofthenewsouth.org/exhibits/

Edited November 17, 2021 by CLT2014

[kermit]

1 hour ago, tarhoosier said:

The most common words I heard from that time about people considering moving to Dilworth were "I would love to but my wife..."

A year or so after I bought my current house I was able to chat with a (now grown) kid who grew up in my house in the 60s. He ask a bunch about the house, but the confused the whole conversation about why I was so happy to buy the place. His words were: "When I lived there Dilworth was the kind of neighborhood you wanted to get out of."

Related to Tarhoosier's remark, my girlfriend (now wife) steered us to Dilworth rather than the falling-down NoDa mill house that I coveted. She informed me that the school district was much better in Dilworth. I did not realize until a few days later that she was telling me she was pregnant. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by kermit

[videtur quam contuor]

!!!!

[KJHburg]

I think @Mgelbachhas a story he can tell how far Southend has come from his fathers business that was located there.  I will let him tell it.  I had fond memories of going to the Spaghetti Warehouse in the design center where Superica was back in the early 1990s and that area was majorly sketchy thank goodness I parked in the lot where the Lowes tower is today and rushed into the doors.  My grandma worked in the Nebel Mill where Superica was back in the 1950s.  

 

[TheOneRJ]

2 pages in and already off-topic  those stories are interesting to hear though considering I didn’t live here to experience Charlotte pre light rail 

[NCMike1990]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

I think @Mgelbachhas a story he can tell how far Southend has come from his fathers business that was located there.  I will let him tell it.  I had fond memories of going to the Spaghetti Warehouse in the design center where Superica was back in the early 1990s and that area was majorly sketchy thank goodness I parked in the lot where the Lowes tower is today and rushed into the doors.  My grandma worked in the Nebel Mill where Superica was back in the 1950s.  

 

KJ, I found some pics of what SouthEnd looked like in 1996. I took these screenshots from a Youtube video but can't seem to find it now. It's amazing how much the area has changed. WFAE had a story on the transformation of SouthEnd. https://www.wfae.org/local-news/2013-06-10/the-surprising-story-of-charlottes-south-end

[KJHburg]

thanks that looks like my old white Isuzu Trooper in the parking lot LOL  I called it the Refrigerator.  

Hey at least no parking worries back in the day! on parking congestion around Prices soon to be home to its own 30 story apartment tower. 

Check out the tower Southern Land did in Philly I will take one like that on the Trolleys End pub site 

Southern Land Company | MULTI-FAMILY  top left on Sanson 

[JacksonH]

36 minutes ago, NCMike1990 said:

KJ, I found some pics of what SouthEnd looked like in 1996. I took these screenshots from a Youtube video but can't seem to find it now. It's amazing how much the area has changed. WFAE had a story on the transformation of SouthEnd. https://www.wfae.org/local-news/2013-06-10/the-surprising-story-of-charlottes-south-end

A couple friends of mine I worked with in DC -- he was from New York and she was from Gastonia -- fell in love and got married.  This was around 1992.  She wanted to return home to North Carolina and took her new New Yorker husband with her.  He got a job at First Union and they settled in Charlotte.  Not long after they moved there I went out to dinner with them when I was down in North Carolina for a visit.  They suggested the Spaghetti Factory, which was the new big thing at the time.  It was the first and only time I was ever there and, although I had lived in Charlotte in the '80s, I was unfamiliar with that neighborhood.  And all these years  later I couldn't recall exactly where I had dinner that night until seeing these photos.  I  just remember  the area being dark at night.  I had no idea the Spaghetti Factory is what is now Design Center!  The Design Center is my favorite part of South End, along with the block of buildings including Hot Taco, All American Pub, Oak Room and Slate.  To me, those buildings are the heart and soul of South End.

These photos are wonderful to see, so thanks.  As for my former colleagues, I fell out of touch with them long ago, but I did a little snooping awhile back and found that they're still in Charlotte, still married and now living in Dilworth in a house that has a very handsome price tag.

[Hushpuppy321]

On 11/16/2021 at 7:33 PM, Blue_Devil said:

Lets use this thread to discuss everything going up in SouthEnd larger than a Texas Donut.

1. Southern Land tower at Tyber Creek pub site  30 stories

2. Unnamed 20+ story tower next to Southern Land site

3. Just announced Stiles and Catalyst tower at Price Chicken Coop site 30 stories

4.  Greystar's 24 story Ascent Southend at the Walgreens site (+ eventual 2nd tower once Walgreens moves).

5. Cousins will have a high rise on W Tremont/Doggett residential of some height but high rise nonetheless  (Possibly 2 highrise towers 20+)

6. Portman's 22 story apartment high rise on Sycamore brewery site 

7. Stiles 110 East  23 stories (Eventual second apartment tower)  

8. CenterSouth by Fallon, 12 stories

9. Unannounced highrise behind railyard

10. Unannounced Cousins project at Slate/Brickyard/Hot Taco site (700,000+ square ft)

11. 20+ story office project next to Suffolk Punch

12. Enterprise Rental redevelopment (rumored to be 500ft +, and 2 towers)

13. Midnight Dinner/Uptown Cab redevelopment (3 towers, with one being 600ft +)

14. Lowe's tower phase 2 (originally to be a West Elm hotel, now possibly Apartments)

15. LoSo Towers at Scaleybark.  (2 towers)

16. Morehead 200 block tower (developer who built Jenga tower in Austin)

So - Curious to know which of any of these proposed Towers needed Rezonings or if the New TOD Blanket Zonings (And possibly the New UDO) preclude these from needing Rezoning?   Has the City under Taiwo Jayeoba leadership turned on the Development Spigot Full Blast with the new rules?

[kermit]

4 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

So - Curious to know which of any of these proposed Towers needed Rezonings or if the New TOD Blanket Zonings (And possibly the New UDO) preclude these from needing Rezoning?   Has the City under Taiwo Jayeoba leadership turned on the Development Spigot Full Blast with the new rules?

I think all of the new towers are within 1/4 mile of a station, so the parcels are already TOD (and have been since 2006).

[Hushpuppy321]

36 minutes ago, kermit said:

I think all of the new towers are within 1/4 mile of a station, so the parcels are already TOD (and have been since 2006).

Damn it’ll be nice to not have City Council political input into these projects but rather the professional city staffers.  I saw something yesterday about some pushback from City Council and/or Meck Commissioners concerning the Med School Innovation District assistance which seems to be counter-intuitive.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Hushpuppy321