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jdkacz

Casino

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I know the casino is being built in the Wayland area, and will get built eventually to the dismay of "23 is Enouch" or whatever the group is called.

from a grand rapids perspective, you have to realize that the legal battle will lose against the gun lake band of indians to build the casino. so what i dont understand is why wont GR offer land for the casino in GR?

honestly, the city more then makes up for the loss in taxes from steelcase from the proposed thousands of jobs being offered from the casino. plus its another attraction to pull in conventions and boost downtown's hotel occupancy rates.

one location that i think would work is that huge 5-story brick building that is near 131 south of downtown. i think only the first floor is truly occupied.

i really only started getting interest in this debate later on, but where can an employer bringing jobs & entertainment to grand rapids be a bad idea? with it in wayland it just further pushes sprawl south :(.

is it a legal issue? or is it purely GR's conservativeness and stubborness to see a good thing that would block a comprise on the casino to downtown? or something else i completely missed. im definitley interested in the board's opinion on the issue.

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I know the casino is being built in the Wayland area, and will get built eventually to the dismay of "23 is Enouch" or whatever the group is called.

from a grand rapids perspective, you have to realize that the legal battle will lose against the gun lake band of indians to build the casino. so what i dont understand is why wont GR offer land for the casino in GR?

honestly, the city more then makes up for the loss in taxes from steelcase from the proposed thousands of jobs being offered from the casino. plus its another attraction to pull in conventions and boost downtown's hotel occupancy rates.

one location that i think would work is that huge 5-story brick building that is near 131 south of downtown. i think only the first floor is truly occupied.

i really only started getting interest in this debate later on, but where can an employer bringing jobs & entertainment to grand rapids be a bad idea? with it in wayland it just further pushes sprawl south :(.

is it a legal issue? or is it purely GR's conservativeness and stubborness to see a good thing that would block a comprise on the casino to downtown? or something else i completely missed. im definitley interested in the board's opinion on the issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You could park a Paddle Wheel Riverboat Casino right on the river outside of my dream "Indoor Water Park Resort" at the corner of Market and Fulton B)

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I think everyone is against more casinos in Michigan. It's just that when there's a small chance that your city could land one, opinions change. I had the same reaction when there were talks of one coming to Flint.

I don't think there's much chance of getting one in GR since it'll have to be passed by a high margin by the state in addition to the city since it's not Native territory. And it doesn't look like they're willing to do that for any city in the near future.

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I think everyone is against more casinos in Michigan. It's just that when there's a small chance that your city could land one, opinions change. I had the same reaction when there were talks of one coming to Flint.

I don't think there's much chance of getting one in GR since it'll have to be passed by a high margin by the state in addition to the city since it's not Native territory. And it doesn't look like they're willing to do that for any city in the near future.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Au Contraire. When they were getting ready to re-build the S-curve, I believe there were remnants of an old Indian settlement found along the banks of the Grand River. It probably wouldn't be difficult to proclaim an undeveloped area in Grand Rapids as Indian Charter Territory. Isn't that basically what they did in Detroit?

BTW: If an indoor water park is good enough for Minneapolis:

Water_Park_of_America.jpg

It's good enough for us. :whistling:

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I already here 420 or other economics people reading this in dismay... Frankly, I really don't want a short-term fix to GRs problems...

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I think it's more of a NIMBY thing than anything. I'm not totally convinced that this 23 is enough group would be fighting so hard if this weren't the first and only casino proposed in the West Michigan area. I think there can be arguements made for both sides as far as pro's and con's of a casino goes. However this is federal jurisdiction, because the Native Americans have there laws made with the feds, so it won't be fought in a Michigan court, it will be faught in a federal court, which gives the Band of Indians a slightly better chance than they would have locally.

But I'd have to agree that it's more of a conservative fight, can't have sin within a fifty mile radius of Ottawa counties borders. I have a strong feeling ( that i'm sure could be corrected) that the people fighting this so vehemently, have strong ties to the same people from Western Michigan that fought so hard to get the marriage amendment for those hell-bound (insert negative homosexual diatribe here) people passed.

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I already here 420 or other economics people reading this in dismay... Frankly, I really don't want a short-term fix to GRs problems...

i wasnt proposing it as a short term fix. i merely believe that the casino supporters will win in federal court and the casino could prove more valuable if it was in gr rather then in wayland.

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I have thought about this too. Casino's don't really bring the "riff-raff" that 23 is enough will tell you about, but I also don't know if I would be for or against a casino in GR. I guess, if they are building one in Wayland, it might as well be downtown. I do think Casino's have drawing power (especially for conventioneers and vacationers) but I think most of the money is made from the residents. Is that good or bad, I do not know. But I have a bit of fear that my Dad will be at the casino in Wayland. If it were 10 blocks from his house, it might be problematic. :)

I actually heard some political mudslinging a while back that said Secchia tried to get a piece of the casino action and when he didn't, he started to oppose it greatly.

Anyone else remember this?

Joe

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Personally, I dont see how a casino could benefit GR. Casinos should be a tourism draw, and to have them in places like Wayland is easier to understand then Downtown GR. Heh, I remember there was talk of wayland being the new hotspot in the area, that it was going to grow like a weed due to it having the most residents within an hours drive in any direction.

My guess is, that the people in Wayland are afraid that a casino might drive away some development, and move it farther up north thus not affecting Wayland.

And instead of downtown GR, if a casino should be put anywhere, is in Wyoming right across from Rogers plaza. Thats right, i'd put it right where Rogers department store stood. Call it Ottawa Rogers casino, that should ruffle Holland's feathers :P

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Casino's are trash. They tend to exist as their own little islands and most of the economic impact of their existance never leaves the lot - that is the positive economic impact. All of the negative impacts surely leave the lot, and to homes and neighborhoods.

I am personally surprised that more people on this board were not against the Wayland casino. Many city leaders and private leaders (a few of whom I know and respect) know exactly what the Wayland casino means to the area. It is effectively the end of downtown entertainment expansion and could be the end of downtown growth. There is seriously a lot of real fear in the city government.

Every weekend there will now be 10000 - 20000 people travelling out of town, away from downtown for entertainment. Sure, all of them would not have gone downtown, but at least 1/10 on a normal weekend probably would. Right now, downtown has a monopoly of the regions night life - with the expection of a few larger clubs and bars spread around town. For the first few years of this development we can expect to lose a few bars and restaurants downtown in the long term, who knows.

We can only hope that this casino is not popular with people under 30.

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I agree very much superNOVA... Besides, I remeber reading an article claiming that most if not all the profits go directly to the head gaming officials rather then the people of the tribe.

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Every weekend there will now be 10000 - 20000 people travelling out of town, away from downtown for entertainment.  Sure, all of them would not have gone downtown, but at least 1/10 on a normal weekend probably would.  Right now, downtown has a monopoly of the regions night life - with the expection of a few larger clubs and bars spread around town.  For the first few years of this development we can expect to lose a few bars and restaurants downtown in the long term, who knows.

We can only hope that this casino is not popular with people under 30.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree somewhat, and don't think we need a casino downtown. But if Wayland wants one, they can have it. When I was in Minneapolis two summers ago, I was talked into going to a large casino about 40 minutes South of where we were staying (to make a metropolitan area casino comparison, vs. an Up North casino comparison). It was a weekend night, and the place was jam packed. But believe me, these people were not the target market for downtown nightlife by a long shot. If you have family or friends that frequent casinos, no offense, but those same people would probably never set foot in an upscale Bistro, go to the symphony, or participate in an online forum :D

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I know what the target market is. However, there are still plenty of young people that are not the target market that will still go - if anything to check it out. Hell, I am part of the downtown target market, and my friends are too - yet some of them will still head out to the casinos every now and then. It is something different for them to do.

If they add a few poker rooms, they will be directly grabbing people from the target market. Whatever the case. If this was not that important the city would not have paid consultants and lobbiests to oppose this. Yes, they did, and it was all carefully hidden to prevent public outcry.

They see this as a major threat. One that is large enough to set downtown development and growth back more than a decade. I also see it as a major threat.

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I know what the target market is.  However, there are still plenty of young people that are not the target market that will still go - if anything to check it out.  Hell, I am part of the downtown target market, and my friends are too - yet some of them will still head out to the casinos every now and then.  It is something different for them to do.

If they add a few poker rooms, they will be directly grabbing people from the target market.  Whatever the case.  If this was not that important the city would not have paid consultants and lobbiests to oppose this.  Yes, they did, and it was all carefully hidden to prevent public outcry.

They see this as a major threat.  One that is large enough to set downtown development and growth back more than a decade.  I also see it as a major threat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just don't see it, and I don't know what studies the city is looking at, or who they are consulting with. I'm sure some young people will go check out a casino out of curiosity, but rubbing elbows with the ULTRA poor, old people pulling their oxygen tanks around, busses full of Sweet Adelines from Allegan, hoarse throat Grandmas smoking their menthols, is good for only a few chuckles. I've been to a few casinos in the Midwest, and have travelled to Vegas a few times, and they are not the same. There is no way they would be a regular weekend draw for the under 30 crowd.

I can hear it now, "Hey, why don't we meet up at my place, have some drinks, and then drive 40 minutes South (designated driver) to the casino tonight instead of going out" Reply "Are you xxxxting me! I still haven't gotten the smell out of my shirt from last time".

Just my two cents.

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I just don't see the need for a casino. It's just mindless addictive activity that sucks life and money out of more intellectual institutions. The loss of time and money spent at casinos cuts into resources that could be spent on bettering our city.

I agree with superNova.

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GRDad,

I agree. If we were talking about a Vegas style, ultra-lounge, ultra-hip casino that was THE place to be, downtown would be in trouble. But I haven't been to one casino in Michigan where I'd like to hang out (or even visit twice). They are stuffy, smoky places for the over 65+ people to lose their kids inheritance.

If Wayland were getting a casino like the Palms or Mandalay Bay in Vegas, GR would have some serious competition. What Wayland will give us is a glorified Bingo hall. I don't see it hurting GR. In fact, I see it as another draw for conventioneers, just like the beaches are. The lakeshore doesn't help GR monetarily, but it puts butts in seats.

Joe

I just don't see it, and I don't know what studies the city is looking at, or who they are consulting with.  I'm sure some young people will go check out a casino out of curiosity, but rubbing elbows with the ULTRA poor, old people pulling their oxygen tanks around, busses full of Sweet Adelines from Allegan, hoarse throat Grandmas smoking their menthols, is good for only a few chuckles.  I've been to a few casinos in the Midwest, and have travelled to Vegas a few times, and they are not the same.  There is no way they would be a regular weekend draw for the under 30 crowd. 

I can hear it now, "Hey, why don't we meet up at my place, have some drinks, and then drive 40 minutes South (designated driver) to the casino tonight instead of going out"  Reply "Are you xxxxting me!  I still haven't gotten the smell out of my shirt from last time".

Just my two cents.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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If Wayland were to get a super casino, I think it would add to the developement of the area, but yes detract from the downtown nightlife, which has been budding quite nicely as of late. But I'm with GRdad, a glorified bingo hall in the long run isn't going to hurt us as much. I'd imagine it would probabally Hurt Kzoo a little more. Since Wayland is directly in between Kzoo and GR.

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This wont be much more then a glorified bingo hall. I just don't see it being anything like what most people are afraid of. Even the casinos in Detroit arent much more then super glorified bingo halls, they dont come near to the level of Las Vegas.

What would (is) killing GR nightlife is the way the nightlife is handled. Its dead by the time most cities just begin their night parties. We need to find a way to get people to stay out sometimes till 3-4 AM, and not worry about a casino attracting grannies in diapers pulling at a machine.

You go to a casino, for the "eeeew" factor, kind of like you how you go to a dingy strip club, you dont go for the normal dancers, but the old woman who still thinks shes got it. Thats what Casinos in michigan are like.

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Trust me, people will go. The city would not have hired multiple consulting firms and paid lobbiests if there was not a definite threat. Yes, casinos are trashy, but people go. Not to mention, there are a lot of trashy people that go downtown. It is not all of the pretty people all of the time.

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I really am not an expert on the subject. I'm sure if the casino does get built it will be a regional attraction. But do I think it will turn downtown in to a ghost town with tumbleweed? I think probabally not. I'm sure it will draw people, but not everyone will be there everytime they have free time. Alot of the people that I know who go to casino's go to them about once every few months. Now that could be, because they have to Drive two hours to get to one. While I see how it could tap into the downtown party market. I just don't see the logic in a casino killing downtown. However if it seriously proposed a viable threat, I would get in line to have it stopped! I am a huge fan of downtown, and the furthered developement of it, into something great. Still I just don't see it.

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interesting debate, and while i agree with many that i would prefer no casino, i still believe if there has to be one in the are I would prefer it to be in grand rapids for a few reasons i mention below.

nonetheless, i do agree with the clientale that visit most michigan casinos. my aunt and uncle are in their 60's and travel over to mt clemons once a month. personally, i think mt clemons loses the most on this deal as my aunt and uncle who live in nearby dorr will not ever leave west michigan. so in theory i think the casino will keep more $$ local with jobs, income taxes, etc.

however, i believe that if there was a downtown casino it would get people like my aunt and uncle who never go downtown to give it a try and with 10,000-20,000 people gambling downtown i think that business would spill over or people would lose their stigmatism towards downtown itself.

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My guess is, that the people in Wayland are afraid that a casino might drive away some development, and move it farther up north thus not affecting Wayland.

I can't speak for the 23 is Enough, but a family friend was one of the forerunners in the initial CASINO campaign. For them, it wasn't primarily an issue of developmental direction. Actually, many would prefer that their cornfields remain cornfields. They were concerned with gambling's track record of causing addictions, breaking families, and filtering money to questionable sources.

I prefer no casinos for the same reasons. But, if there was going to be one, I would want it closer to downtown.

A rumor I heard recently is that Sullivan is interested in getting something to accompany his hotel. (It would be no wonder then, why he was so opposed to the musuem's riverfront location...)

Out of curiosity, does anyone know any figures about Detroit's casinos? Have they significantly helped the city financially? Who are the primary clientele?

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I guess you could look at it like this, "keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer..."

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A rumor I heard recently is that Sullivan is interested in getting something to accompany his hotel. (It would be no wonder then, why he was so opposed to the musuem's riverfront location.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If sullivan wants a casino downtown, he should destroy his own Days Inn, and build it on the site he already owns.

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